SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

Manc Red · 24-01-2014 5:42pm

bealtine wrote: »

No it's not even officially announced yet...

Well I found this:

http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/emerald_bridge/overview.htm

and this:

ESBT has developed 16 Points of Presence (PoPs) around Ireland, in Dublin (CityWest, Carrickmines and Finglas), Arklow, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Shannon, Galway, Stradbally, Toomyvara, Sligo, Letterkenny, Carrick on Shannon and Dundalk (see map). Each of our PoP sites is equipped with fully configured, state of the art, co-location facilities.

http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/bandwidth_services/points_presence.htm

househero · 24-01-2014 5:47pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

ESB connect rural homes to heavy gauge overhead copper power lines anyway. So for them, fibre overlaid on that is possibly quite simple.

You do realize that the ESB charge a HUGE fee for connecting a home to the network dont you???

If you need them to move poles, or add a couple to connect you it can easily cost 4k+

ctlsleh · 24-01-2014 5:54pm

bk wrote: »

I'm afraid you are very wrong, please read these:

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/CableLabs-Releases-DOCSIS-31-Specification-126437
http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/docsis/docsis-31-makes-debut/d/d-id/706378
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/12/why-comcast-and-other-cable-isps-arent-selling-you-gigabit-internet/

1Gb/s service coming to cable with DOCSIS 3.1

Coax is well able to carry gigabit speeds, it is even capable of doing it with DOCSIS 3.0, it is just a case of bonding more channels. A 860Mhz UPC cable has a total of 5Gb/s worth of bandwidth available to it:

http://fastnetnews.com/docsisreport/163-c/4272-virgin-15-gigabit-cable-is-not-a-typo

With DOCSIS3.1 that increases to 10Gb/s worth of bandwidth on a 860Mhz cable!

Also I've not heard of a single cable company in the US move to GPON, yes some sell Fibre products to business from their HFC network, just as UPC does here, but not a single US cable company is moving to GPON for consumer BB.

my point is that if you are digging a road tmorrow would you put down fibre (inifinite bandwidth, low cost) vs cable (there will be limited bandwidth, high cost).....its a no-brainer to invest in fibre. For existing deployments, then sure you can upgrade the bandwidth on existing coax, you have to upgrade all users on that coax at the same time however, ie, all DOCSIS modems need to upgraded at the same time= operational nightmare. not the case with GPON, most higher end GPON modems have build in filters so that you can run existing GPON services in parallel to NGPON services on the same fibre.
The different between a coax and a fibre GPON depeloyment is that there is a fibre to each home which all aggregated back to a splitter (usually in front of the OLT device, where as in cable world, all the homes are daisychained and therefore if you have one guy on your line hogging all the bandwidth all the time, then all the users on that cable are going to be impacted, where as from a GPON perspective, its easy just to give him his own fibre or move him onto another PON port on the OLT......also looking forward DOCSIS3.1 talks about 10G down and 1G up, while NGPON2, is 40G down and 10G up and as ethernet ports continue to decline in cost, once you have that fibre, it might be cost effective to get a dedicated 10G dedicated symmettrical service in the not too distant future.......so in my opinion, fibre is the long term winner, coax will always have limitations, however if you have coax running to your house, your probably good for the next 5 years, however if you have a choice of coax vs fiber which hopefully we will have based on this announcement then i think you should always go fibre......

bk · 24-01-2014 6:07pm

ctlsleh wrote: »

my point is that if you are digging a road tmorrow would you put down fibre (inifinite bandwidth, low cost) vs cable (there will be limited bandwidth, high cost).....its a no-brainer to invest in fibre. For existing deployments, then sure you can upgrade the bandwidth on existing coax, you have to upgrade all users on that coax at the same time however, ie, all DOCSIS modems need to upgraded at the same time= operational nightmare.

Why do you keep posting about cable when you clearly don't know what you are talking about!

DOCSIS 2.0 and DOCSIS 3.0 modems currently co-exist on the same UPC network at the same time.

And DOCSIS 3.1 is designed from the start to also be backwards compatible with DOCSIS 3.0, so you can have a mix of DOCSIS 3.1 and 3.0 modems on the same network at the same time.

Now I'm not saying it isn't better and cheaper to lay fibre then Co-ax, it clearly is, but please stop posting such misinformation about cable.

SpaceTime · 24-01-2014 6:25pm

househero wrote: »

You do realize that the ESB charge a HUGE fee for connecting a home to the network dont you???

If you need them to move poles, or add a couple to connect you it can easily cost 4k+

Similar might apply for fibre in remote locations though.

Laim · 24-01-2014 7:55pm

I haven't read through this thread, but what are the posibilities of rural villages that can't even get eircom , but only have a ****ty wirless local porvider , of getting hold of esb broadband? whats your opinions?

bealtine · 24-01-2014 8:02pm

Manc Red wrote: »

Well I found this:

http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/emerald_bridge/overview.htm

and this:

http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/bandwidth_services/points_presence.htm

Your google-fu is mighty! However those have nothing (much) to do with the FTTH service being proposed by the ESB

Cheerful Spring · 24-01-2014 9:36pm

ESB is 95 per cent owned by the state. I truly believe ESB is only being allowed to do this because they've promised, the Irish government, they'll fill the gaps that Eircom and UPC will never touch.

I think rural areas will get it first (small towns and villages).

Why would ESB waste money when Eircom has already committed itself to provide 70% of Irish homes and businesses with Efibre by December 2016.

garroff · 24-01-2014 9:43pm

Cheerful.....I thing you've got it. This government wants to show it has achieved something when it leaves office.

lucernarian · 25-01-2014 2:31am

househero wrote: »

You do realize that the ESB charge a HUGE fee for connecting a home to the network dont you???

If you need them to move poles, or add a couple to connect you it can easily cost 4k+

I imagine he does. I find it extremely hard to forsee a situation where the existing poles could support large LV cables safely and securely while somehow they would be completely unsuited to fibre optic cables. Being able to use the entire network of overhead lines and poles is what makes this such a more viable proposition than e.g. looking for govt or eircom etc. to roll out FTTH by digging up every rural road or even using eircom's mixed bag of poles/tree branches/nylon rope tied to tree branches and poles.

The Cush · 25-01-2014 3:39am

Manc Red wrote: »

Is there a list of locations available yet?

This story broke with the introduction of the ESB (Electronic Communications Networks) Bill 2013 at second stage in the Dáil on Wed evening which ...

provides an explicit legal basis to enable the ESB to
engage, now or in the future, in the business of installing and
operating an electronic communications network and providing
electronic communications services, either alone or in conjunction
with another company.

The Bill extends the existing definition of
electric line to include infrastructure associated with an electric line
for the purpose of carrying electronic communications services.

Appropriate provisions are also included in respect of the ESB’s
existing wayleave powers in the context of its operation in the fully
liberalised telecommunications market.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/13513/b13513d-memo.pdf
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/13513/b13513d.pdf

Transcript of the second stage debate
Wed evening - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014012200045?opendocument#TT00400
Thur morning - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014012300010?opendocument#H00800
Thur afternoon - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014012300022?opendocument#U01500

Dáil sub-committte stage - ESB (Electronic Communications Networks) Bill 2013 (Select sub-Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Thursday, 6 February 2014 at 2 p.m. in Committee Room 4)

The various news reports following the introduction of the Bill in the Dáil
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/bill-to-enable-esb-broadband-service-1.1664728
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/esb-will-roll-out-broadband-to-500000-homes-29942493.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0122/499525-esb-broadband/
http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/35494-esb-aims-to-provide/

This from Pat Rabbitte contribution to the Dáil debate

The ESB has identified an opportunity to use its electricity distribution network to provide telecommunications services in the Irish market. I understand the company has sought a joint venture partner with a view to providing such services on a wholesale-only basis. I am advised that this, in turn, could facilitate the delivery of high speed broadband services by retail telecommunications operators in the areas served.

...

I understand from it that it is considering proposals to provide such services on a wholesale, open access basis with a joint venture partner. In August 2012 the company launched a call for expressions of interest in such a joint venture, attracting considerable interest from the telecommunications sector. I await with interest detailed formal proposals from it on the proposed joint venture.

...

The current proposal differs from the ESB's existing fibre network in that it would be a stand-alone business, with no direct connection to the management of the electricity network, and it might be developed by way of a joint venture.

galait · 25-01-2014 8:14am

Without reading the thread and getting my hopes up can I get a yes or no answer to my question.

I live in a rural area but the Electricity Cables are underground , Does this rule me out of any POTENTIAL Broadband service from the ESB?

hallo dare · 25-01-2014 9:03am

galait wrote: »

Without reading the thread and getting my hopes up can I get a yes or no answer to my question.

I live in a rural area but the Electricity Cables are underground , Does this rule me out of any POTENTIAL Broadband service from the ESB?

Doubt it, there may have been extra ducting laid as they were laying the initial ones for the cabling.

White Heart Loon · 25-01-2014 9:41am

The beauty of fibre it's that it's light, there is no crosstalk, it can easily be ran with electrical cables. Also in future in our homes and offices we will be able to run it down the same conduit as electrical cables and use a special electrical socket with a fibre connector, there it's no safety issue, it doesn't conduct electricity. Interesting times ahead.

ted1 · 25-01-2014 9:44am

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think ESB are planning on wholesale fibre and not being the ISP, so there is every possibility that UPC could use it.

They have a deal done with Vodafone. Asfaik its FTTH

ted1 · 25-01-2014 9:49am

nilhg wrote: »

Complications could possibly arise, the ESB have a wayleave arrangement with farmers and there is a small payment per pole on your land, if another service is going to be delivered then maybe there is a case for some adjustment of that payment, can't see it being a problem though.

Physically getting access across the land may be a factor though, we have crops here so putting heavy machinery into fields is probably only feasable after harvest, though something like a quad could possibly be used to drag in cables until the crops grow tall in the spring.

ESB are well used to working round stuff like that though.

ESB are in the process of getting fibre reclassified so that they can get the same way leave as electric cables.
Its a 96 fibre core cable that they are using

White Heart Loon · 25-01-2014 9:52am

There is also a thing called shotgun damage, where disgruntled land owners shoot at the cables when they discover what they carry is worth much more than they originally dealt for.

swoofer · 25-01-2014 10:45am

and there is absolutely nothing on the ESB telecoms website, this is hot air and we should not get our hopes up. It sounds good in theory and reads well for the foreign press.

there is a village in clare, kilmihill, over 650 plus inhabitants and they are restricted to 2.55mns down max, .. as the backhaul line can only take 16mbs, if eircom cant be a**d to put in a better system for a RURAL village this size I cant see ESB doing anything.

ED E · 25-01-2014 11:23am

White Heart Loon wrote: »

There is also a thing called shotgun damage, where disgruntled land owners shoot at the cables when they discover what they carry is worth much more than they originally dealt for.

This is actually a huge problem. If the crews have to go out the landowner gets paid a fee so some take it upon themselves to use it as a way to boost income.

Only in ireland...

ted1 · 25-01-2014 12:18pm

GBCULLEN wrote: »

and there is absolutely nothing on the ESB telecoms website, this is hot air and we should not get our hopes up. It sounds good in theory and reads well for the foreign press.

there is a village in clare, kilmihill, over 650 plus inhabitants and they are restricted to 2.55mns dwon max, .. as the backhaul line can only take 16mbs, if eircom cant be a**d to put in a better system for a RURAL village this size I cant see ESB doing anything.

Look it lets be honest it makes no financial sense to run cables to remote parts if the country for 650 people. When people choose to live in remote locations they should weigh up the pros and cons.

MrO · 25-01-2014 12:36pm

ted1 wrote: »

Look it lets be honest it makes no financial sense to run cables to remote parts if the country for 650 people. When people choose to live in remote locations they should weigh up the pros and cons.

True, but my take on this is is that overall it's a positive thing. The more fibre that is pushed deeper into the country as a whole the more options people have.

ted1 · 25-01-2014 1:10pm

MrO wrote: »

True, but my take on this is is that overall it's a positive thing. The more fibre that is pushed deeper into the country as a whole the more options people have.

But really why should others subsidise the added cost if supplying connections to people who chose to live in remote areas. A block of apartments in Dublin can contain 650 people and probably involve a run if 100m where's as the one in Clare would involve running a cable several km along with the added infrastructure needed to cover this distance

MrO · 25-01-2014 1:15pm

ted1 wrote: »

But really why should others subsidise the added cost if supplying connections to people who chose to live in remote areas. A block of apartments in Dublin can contain 650 people and probably involve a run if 100m where's as the one in Clare would involve running a cable several km along with the added infrastructure needed to cover this distance

I agree with you. There are obvious pros and cons to living in an urban setting and the same goes for rural. Most people understand this - some don't...

chrislynch8 · 25-01-2014 1:16pm

To the best of my knowledge. The ESB are going to sell as an ISP to areas that would already have broadband. They are not going to bring fibre to places with less then 2000 or so people. I might be wrong but it will be the same as when BT entered the market. I don't see much change coming for smaller rural areas.

garroff · 25-01-2014 1:44pm

Quite the opposite.
ESB will bring BB all rural customers.
Remember...this is a political decision.

The Cush · 25-01-2014 1:56pm

According to the Dáil debate on this last Wednesday the ESB JV's plan is to provide it on a wholesale-only basis to other providers

This from Pat Rabbitte contribution to the Dáil debate

The ESB has identified an opportunity to use its electricity distribution network to provide telecommunications services in the Irish market. I understand the company has sought a joint venture partner with a view to providing such services on a wholesale-only basis. I am advised that this, in turn, could facilitate the delivery of high speed broadband services by retail telecommunications operators in the areas served.

...

I understand from it that it is considering proposals to provide such services on a wholesale, open access basis with a joint venture partner. In August 2012 the company launched a call for expressions of interest in such a joint venture, attracting considerable interest from the telecommunications sector. I await with interest detailed formal proposals from it on the proposed joint venture.

...

The current proposal differs from the ESB's existing fibre network in that it would be a stand-alone business, with no direct connection to the management of the electricity network, and it might be developed by way of a joint venture.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014012200045?opendocument#TT00400

murphaph · 25-01-2014 2:49pm

ted1 wrote: »

But really why should others subsidise the added cost if supplying connections to people who chose to live in remote areas. A block of apartments in Dublin can contain 650 people and probably involve a run if 100m where's as the one in Clare would involve running a cable several km along with the added infrastructure needed to cover this distance

I agree in principle with what you're saying but if anything in an Irish context 650 people living in a village is sustainable development. Fibre should be run to such villages IMO. It's the one off dwellers that should be left with wireless really.

Nody · 25-01-2014 3:08pm

galait wrote: »

Without reading the thread and getting my hopes up can I get a yes or no answer to my question.

I live in a rural area but the Electricity Cables are underground , Does this rule me out of any POTENTIAL Broadband service from the ESB?

Very unlikely; wave one would likely be 4k+ villages and then they would work down from there basically in village sizes.

galait · 25-01-2014 3:31pm

Nody wrote: »

Very unlikely; wave one would likely be 4k+ villages and then they would work down from there basically in village sizes.

are you saying villages with a population over 4 thousand ???? Most villages in Ireland have populations of less than 100

Cheerful Spring · 25-01-2014 3:36pm

ted1 wrote: »

Look it lets be honest it makes no financial sense to run cables to remote parts if the country for 650 people. When people choose to live in remote locations they should weigh up the pros and cons.

Not true. I just checked this last night. A town close to were i live is going live with EFibre this June. Population 1100

I live in a village close by around 8km away and Eircom has planned for my village to get Efibre by July 2016.

Population of my village 676 people. I thought it was more, but i was wrong.

Eircom, is willing to do it why not the ESB!

Villages with lots of houses and small town villages i bet is what ESB will be targeting first.

SIRO - ESB/Vodafone Fibre To The Home

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