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The Labour Defence Manifesto

  • 28-01-2020 11:23pm
    #1
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Defence, Page 21, interesting to say the very least, nobody else has mentioned anything like this..


    https://www.labour.ie/download/pdf//labour_manifesto_web.pdf

    Labour will develop a strategy to expand the Naval Service so that it can fully patrol all our waters, for the regulation of fishing, to protect marine reserves, to improve our sub-surface detection/search capacity and to defeat drug smuggling operations

    Labour will evaluate the role of the Air Corps in protecting Irish airspace in light of Brexit by commissioning a feasibility study, with recommendations on Air Intercept/Defence Capability and a review of the agreement currently in place with the RAF. This study will include an estimate of the likely cost of such capabilities.

    Labour will establish a dedicated Cybersecurity Unit within the Defence Forces that will develop technological capabilities for Cyber Defence of all operational systems and defence capabilities of the support systems (manpower, logistics) and create the necessary conditions to attract and retain people with exceptional ICT Skills.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Townton
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Townton


    The agreement with the RAF works quite well I think. unless they actually manage to bridge that gap by attaining a realistic and workable intercept capability then I think the RAF agreement should be kept in place. First class protection for next to nothing in cost.


  • #3
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Better to have our own force in place.
    Imo. Should not be depending on former colonial power.


  • #4
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Better to have our own force in place.
    Imo. Should not be depending on former colonial power.


    Why? Iceland gets on just fine with NATO air policing, the same goes for Estonia, now that I think of it, has an RAF Typhoon even entered Irish airspace on a training flight?


  • #5
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Psychlops wrote: »
    Why? Iceland gets on just fine with NATO air policing, the same goes for Estonia, now that I think of it, has an RAF Typhoon even entered Irish airspace on a training flight?


    The difference of course is those nations are actually NATO members, the Command and Control for such air policing is far more extensive than the "agreement" we have, also those nations actually have said NATO units in their nations not "on call".


  • #6
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Psychlops wrote: »
    Defence, Page 21, interesting to say the very least, nobody else has mentioned anything like this..


    https://www.labour.ie/download/pdf//labour_manifesto_web.pdf

    Labour will develop a strategy to expand the Naval Service so that it can fully patrol all our waters, for the regulation of fishing, to protect marine reserves, to improve our sub-surface detection/search capacity and to defeat drug smuggling operations

    Labour will evaluate the role of the Air Corps in protecting Irish airspace in light of Brexit by commissioning a feasibility study, with recommendations on Air Intercept/Defence Capability and a review of the agreement currently in place with the RAF. This study will include an estimate of the likely cost of such capabilities.

    Labour will establish a dedicated Cybersecurity Unit within the Defence Forces that will develop technological capabilities for Cyber Defence of all operational systems and defence capabilities of the support systems (manpower, logistics) and create the necessary conditions to attract and retain people with exceptional ICT Skills.


    It's interesting apart from the fact that it will never see any action, even if Labour get enough seats to be in a coalition, this wouldn't be accepted by the other parties.


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  • #7
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    sparky42 wrote: »
    It's interesting apart from the fact that it will never see any action, even if Labour get enough seats to be in a coalition, this wouldn't be accepted by the other parties.

    Well, the feasibility studies and reviews will get the thumbs up, all that takes is a few suits and beancounters with no expertise in the area.


  • #8
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    ectoraige wrote: »
    Well, the feasibility studies and reviews will get the thumbs up, all that takes is a few suits and beancounters with no expertise in the area.
    Wouldn't hold my breath even on that, this is defence and who knows what shape the next government will be, the DOD would most likely just give a one line "Nope" reply and leave it at that.


  • #9
    Khaleesi Hundreds Sawhorse
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Khaleesi Hundreds Sawhorse


    This isn't the United States.


  • #10
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Townton wrote: »
    The agreement with the RAF works quite well I think. unless they actually manage to bridge that gap by attaining a realistic and workable intercept capability then I think the RAF agreement should be kept in place. First class protection for next to nothing in cost.

    Protection from who?

    The British are our only enemy.


  • #11
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Protection from who?

    The British are our only enemy.


    That's nice, so what's your solution with dealing with a million Unionists if there's ever unification if that's your view?


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  • #12
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Khaleesi Hundreds Sawhorse wrote: »
    This isn't the United States.


    And? So? What's the point you are trying to make?


  • #13
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    sparky42 wrote: »
    That's nice, so what's your solution with dealing with a million Unionists if there's ever unification if that's your view?

    Drones.


  • #14
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Drones.
    Idiot.


  • #15
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Idiot.

    Sparky if we give all unionists drones they will have an enjoyable hobby that will leave no time for twrroriam!


  • #16
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I see the Mexican government is flogging off the presidential plane for $130m. Looks like a handy piece of kit for a replacement for the government jet and capable of carrying 80 troops to overseas postings as well. Looks like a good deal to me!


  • #17
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    I see the Mexican government is flogging off the presidential plane for $130m. Looks like a handy piece of kit for a replacement for the government jet and capable of carrying 80 troops to overseas postings as well. Looks like a good deal to me!

    You think every bit of a fire sale is a good deal. I hope you're not a stockbroker.

    The Mexican govt are trying to flog what is a pretty tidy Dreamliner to the US or Canada in exchange for medical supplies. If that's what they are reduced to, I can't see anyone having faith in the maintenance record of that plane.

    There is definitely an argument for a single multi-purpose modular passenger jet that can be configured for VIP transport, troop transport, citizen airlift, medevac, or freight like the RNZAF 757s, but it should be procured locally in Europe, maybe even dry leased.


  • #18
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Glad you agree that tha multi function configuration of this plane makes for a very versatile workhorse. I'm sure it must be in pretty good nick seeing that it was used by "el presidente".


  • #19
    Heraldoffreeent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Glad you agree that tha multi function configuration of this plane makes for a very versatile workhorse. I'm sure it must be in pretty good nick seeing that it was used by "el presidente".

    Exactly what he didn't say.


  • #20
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Better to have our own force in place.
    Imo. Should not be depending on former colonial power.
    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/giea/governmentincomeandexpenditurejuly2019/
    Irelands 2018 revenue was €82,000,000,000

    https://www.defensenews.com/global/mideast-africa/2018/03/30/boeing-and-kuwait-cement-super-hornet-deal/
    Kuwait are buying 22 F-18's. The cost of the contract is $1.2bn, or about €1.09bn

    You'd need to train the engineers.
    You'd need to train the pilots.
    You'd need to pay for the above to happen.
    You'd then need to pay the above so they don't leave to goto the UK.

    Currently, people are leaving Irish navy and Irish military to work in Tescos, as it pays better. So how about we improve what we have before spending money on stuff we don't need?


  • #21
    Lord Fairlord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    the_syco wrote: »
    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/giea/governmentincomeandexpenditurejuly2019/
    Irelands 2018 revenue was €82,000,000,000

    https://www.defensenews.com/global/mideast-africa/2018/03/30/boeing-and-kuwait-cement-super-hornet-deal/
    Kuwait are buying 22 F-18's. The cost of the contract is $1.2bn, or about €1.09bn

    You'd need to train the engineers.
    You'd need to train the pilots.
    You'd need to pay for the above to happen.
    You'd then need to pay the above so they don't leave to goto the UK.

    Currently, people are leaving Irish navy and Irish military to work in Tescos, as it pays better. So how about we improve what we have before spending money on stuff we don't need?

    I think that being able to deal with, for example, a hijacked airliner, is a capability that we ought have as a sovereign state. I do agree that pay should be better; the two aren't mutually exclusive.


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  • #22
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Hear hear lord f


  • #23
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Lord Fairlord wrote: »
    I think that being able to deal with, for example, a hijacked airliner, is a capability that we ought have as a sovereign state. I do agree that pay should be better; the two aren't mutually exclusive.
    We don't have the money to pay the existing soldiers, so you want to buy aircraft?


  • #24
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,215 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Let's backtrack a bit here, before talking about purchases. Is there anything in the manifesto which addresses how the goals are to be achieved and how that will be funded?


  • #25
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Let's backtrack a bit here, before talking about purchases. Is there anything in the manifesto which addresses how the goals are to be achieved and how that will be funded?


    Nope. But honestly that's pretty much the same for all the Manifesto's across the board. Plenty of "wishful thinking" in the costings/fundings.


  • #26
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Its a question of increasing the budget allocating to the DF to a more realistic level. Around 2% GDP would probably hit the right spot and pay decent wages and enable develop a credible Air Corps and complete the naval fleet renewal with 2 smaller inshore patrol vessels and a new flagship.


  • #27
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Its a question of increasing the budget allocating to the DF to a more realistic level. Around 2% GDP would probably hit the right spot and pay decent wages and enable develop a credible Air Corps and complete the naval fleet renewal with 2 smaller inshore patrol vessels and a new flagship.


    The DF couldn't spend 2% currently, that would be beyond a reasonable increase.


  • #28
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Might be able to nobble some funds from the EU post brexit. I'd like to see one of the P60's out on the Persian Gulf supporting the French / Dutch / German deployment meself.


  • #29
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Might be able to nobble some funds from the EU post brexit. I'd like to see one of the P60's out on the Persian Gulf supporting the French / Dutch / German deployment meself.


    Ah, no, just no.


  • #30
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Didn't realize u were minister if defence. Can't see why DF could not countenance keeping trade routes of strategic interest to the nation open and would also be very good training for increased responsibilities post brexit closer to home. Would not break the bank either. Quite a lot of Irelands Oil passes through these waters by the way. No need to be eternally patronizing every time I post something which is beyond your rather provincial ambitions.


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  • #31
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭sparky42


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Didn't realize u were minister if defence. Can't see why DF could not countenance keeping trade routes of strategic interest to the nation open and would also be very good training for increased responsibilities post brexit closer to home. Would not break the bank either. Quite a lot of Irelands Oil passes through these waters by the way. No need to be eternally patronizing every time I post something which is beyond your rather provincial ambitions.


    They are OPV's (and cheap for OPVs), NOT FRIGATES or even CORVETTES. They lack sonar, air search radar, any sam defence, can't Replenish underway to name just some issues and none of that can be cheaply or easily rectified. Sending them into something like the Gulf is a pointless waste of resources and would require protection from other nations without bringing anything of value to such operations.


    There are plenty of areas where the NS can look for other missions, something like that is not something that should be considered. 90% of what you post doesn't make sense with what we have or likely to have, nor what we'd use the DF for.


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