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12-07-2019, 08:34   #196
Tony EH
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They can't even claim ignorance as a defence then. They knew exactly who they were getting into bed with.
No, they couldn't, which is why the situation regarding the IRA and the Germans during the war is a strange one indeed.
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12-07-2019, 08:38   #197
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We do Air B + B, had a Jewish family stay here a couple of years ago, they were French but the daughter was living and working in Dublin

If these people are anything to go by, Jews like to visit other places a lot, many travel stories
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12-07-2019, 08:39   #198
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The plan for Germany to invade NI was developed at an IRA convention.
Yes, I know. But that isn't because they were sympathetic to Germany or to Naziism; it's because they thought they saw an opportunity to bring about a united Ireland.

In fact this incident rather makes the point. Invading Ireland or uniting Ireland wasn't on the Nazi radar at all; it wasn't one of their objectives; they had no interest in it for its own sake. So in promoting a Nazi invasion of NI the IRA weren't trying to advance Naziism; they were trying to get the Naziis to advance Irish republicanism

In fact Nazi ideology was quite admiring of Britain. The British were "Aryans", after all, and had demonstrated sterling Aryan qualities by subjugating so much of the globe and so many lesser breeds. True, their moment in the sun was passing and the thousand-year Reich was about to eclipse them in fulfilment of its manifest destiny but, if the British could live with that and remain on friendly terms with Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany would have been quite happy to leave Britain and its empire in peace.

The question of war with Britain only arise because Britain wouldn't take that view, and in fact sought to obstruct the glorious destiny of the deutsche Volk. Even then, that didn't make the Nazis sympathetic to Irish nationalism; they would have been quite happy to see Ireland reincorporated into a (subjugated) United Kingdom. But it did make them interested in anything that could destabillise the United Kingdom, and that was what the IRA spotted. So they tried to pitch to the Germans the idea that invading NI, with the support of the IRA, would tend to destabilise the UK.

The IRA were (for the most part) no more interested in advancing Naziism than the Nazis were interested in advancing a united Ireland; they just thought that a project that would be of interest to them might also, for different reasons, be of interest to the Nazis, and therefore there was an opportunity for mutually beneficial co-operation.
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12-07-2019, 08:39   #199
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As a Jewish person in Ireland, what is your view on Israel?
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As a Jewish person in Ireland, what is your view on Israel?
Why does being Jewish automatically imply a person must hold a position on Zionism or on the arpatheid the Israeli state pursues?

While the Israeli state presents itself as a homeland for all Jews, it doesn't follow that therefore all Jews are responsible for the acts of the state.

It's akin to saying that as Catholic peadophilia was covered up by the church, the churches state is Vatican City and all Catholics most take a position to either condemn or support that state...

It's a very loaded manner of asking someone what is an emotionally loaded question, the answering of which often leads to heated debate that is reduced to "ah, your a Jew!".

The religious background of someone is irrelevant to the question of human rights abuses and ghettoisation.
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12-07-2019, 08:42   #200
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My wife is Jewish and so are my son and daughter.

The worst treatment my wife ever gets is from fellow Jewish people when they assume that she approves of the State of Israel's occupation in Palestine. She personally considers that assumption to be an act of antisemitism itself.



You should be ashamed of yourself.

There's plenty of posters on this site who's reflex is to shout Israel any time Jews or antisemitism is raised.

Almost like they think that the actions of Israel are some sort of excuse for antisemitism or for making generalisations about all Jewish people.
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12-07-2019, 08:44   #201
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Kinda looks that way. I was sceptical about it until that programme - thought it reeked of smear campaign against Corbyn just because he's critical of Israel.

Nope. Absolute full-on vile hatred. The folks in question are those who were disillusioned with Labour during the Blair/Brown years, then fervently grabbed the reins of support when a proper old school socialist got elected again.

Jewish folk involved with Labour are being driven out. It's awful.

I don't think Corbyn is pushing an anti Semitic message, but he's not doing enough to clamp down on those who are, and his friendship with hardline islamists isn't helping the situation.
Corbyn is falling into the same mistakes we see any hardliners make - he's willing to overlook any abhorrent behaviour from people he views as loyal to "the cause".
If anyone who wasn't fervently supportive of the hard-left cause acted in the way many of Corbyn's supporters have, he'd be first in line to condemn and attack - but he's happy to sweep it under the carpet if it might damage his "comrades"
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12-07-2019, 08:45   #202
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The IRA in the north supported Hitler. As did old IRA men in the south.

Their reasoning was he opposed the UK

Sean Russell had close links to hitler.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sean-russe...49072-Aug2017/


They did indeed collab with the nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_...n_World_War_II


https://www.independent.ie/entertain...-26605630.html





https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpo...or-183940.html

I think its why SF still hate Jews and Israelis with such anger. They were always so susceptible to propaganda.

The IRA at the time were very naive they didn't realize germans were sending agents to infiltrate them ..just like they don't realize the british did in the troubles or other foreign agents...

Francis Stuart Stephen Hayes Frank ryan etc were also involved.

Sean Russell was IRA chief of staff and Stephen Hayes was on the IRA army counsel.

Contacts and deep involvement with the NAZIS was at the highest level within the IRA.
Sean Russell was an epic fool but he wasn't remotely representative of the republican movement, no doubt a few lone wolves in the UK itself supported the Nazis, cranks in small numbers everywhere, this thing about how Ireland backed the Nazis is so inaccurate as to be outright laughable
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12-07-2019, 08:45   #203
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No, they couldn't, which is why the situation regarding the IRA and the Germans during the war is a strange one indeed.

It isn't. It's logical when you understand the IRA's campaign against usury in the 20's attacked Jewish money lenders. Anti-Semitic rhetoric and imagery regularly surfaced in the nationalist press before and after 1922.

Such ideas were part of many socialist ideology floating around Europe at the time.

They launched a campaign to rid Dublin of moneylenders in 1926.

The campaign resulted in the arrest of several IRA men.

Briscoe defended them saying it was not anti semitic. I however disagree.

Several others at the time did too.

When Tim Pat Coogan described these events he stated that, ‘
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A touch of anti-Semitism also showed in a series of armed raids on moneylenders…at least as much motivated by a desire to stamp at the practice of money-lending as to strike at Jews.
The following action led to a fear of a pogram in Dublin at the time.
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In October 1923, Commandant James Conroy was implicated in the murder of two Jewish men, Bernard Goldberg and Emmanuel 'Ernest' Kah[a]n. A later application for an army pension was rejected. The killings were the subject of a 2010 investigative documentary by RTÉ; CSÍ: Murder in Little Jerusalem
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12-07-2019, 08:46   #204
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Portobello is viewed as the Jewish quarter in Dublin
Used to be. At the end of the nineteenth century the focus of the Jewish community in Dulblin was in Portobello, along the South Circular Road, and up Clanbrassil Street a bit.

But it shifted over time. A couple of generations later the focus was definitely Rathgar/Terenure, and that's still where the principal synagogue and the Jewish schools are found. And, come to think of it, the Progressive synagogue as well. Whereas all the synagogues in and near Portobello have closed.

The community has grown quite a bit in the last fifteen or twenty years due to immigration. But many of the incoming Jews are young, single, relatively transient and not necessarily very plugged-in to Jewish community life and institutions in Ireland. So, though I don't know for sure, I suspect that as regards where they live they aren't concentrated in any particular area but are quite dispersed throughout the kind of areas where young, single, internationally-mobile adults are prone to rent accommodation.
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12-07-2019, 08:48   #205
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Sean Russell was an epic fool but he wasn't remotely representative of the republican movement, no doubt a few lone wolves in the UK itself supported the Nazis, cranks in small numbers everywhere, this thing about how Ireland backed the Nazis is so inaccurate as to be outright laughable

No not Ireland. The IRA.

The Belfast Jew Leonard Kaitcer, a wealthy antiques dealer, was abducted from his house by the IRA in 1980 and held for ransom. This was apparently legitimate because he was a "capitalist".

Yeah right.

The Idea that Irish people would support some freak idea of Germany invading NI is ridiculous. The fact that the IRA considered it and at least ATTEMPTED to aid the Luftwaffe in bombing Belfast should show you how nuts the IRA were and are. FRUITLOOPS!

I don't think Ireland and the IRA have ever really seen eye to eye though.

Last edited by ILoveYourVibes; 12-07-2019 at 08:53.
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12-07-2019, 08:54   #206
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In truth, I don't the we can see the IRA as a monlithic institution, of one mind on all things. About the only thing that united the IRA was a commitment to militant Irish republicanism. On every other question, there were divergent opinions.

It's certainly true that, within the IRA, there were individuals who were sympathetic to, or attracted by, Nazism. But equally there were those whose political instincts would have been at the opposite end of the spectrum and, truth be told, there were probably the larger group. This didn't stop them being willing to co-operate with the Nazis against what they saw as a common enemy, but that doesn't make them Nazi sympathisers any more than a previous generation who dealt with Imperial Germany thereby became German imperialists.

There were also Irish nationalist Nazi sympathisers who left, or remained outside, the IRA, mostly because they found the IRA too left-wing; too tainted by communism. And there were also left-wing Republicans who kept their disance from the IRA becuase they didn't consider it sufficiently left-wing, or sufficiently internationalist.

There are certainly individuals within the republican movement about whom we can reasonably make judgments that they were, or were not, Nazi sympathisers. But making such judgments about the movement as a whole is much more difficult because, on all questions other than Irish republican militarism, the movement was pretty diverse, and indeed characterised by constant splits, power struggles and shifting internal alliances.
By 1939, the IRA had dwindled down to about 2000 members of various persuasions, from a high of about 15,000 in in the early 30's. By 1941, that figure wasn't even 1000. Even so, there was a wide variety of political stances that spanned a very wide stretch. On one hand there were Communists and on the other ultra Nationalist Christian Conservatives.

It's true, the IRA leadership were more than willing to turn a blind eye to anything they didn't want to see, such a tendency was also carried through to the Provisional IRA in the 60's/70's and 80's as well. But as you say, it doesn't make them Nazi's or even Nazi collaborators in the truest sense of the word.

It doesn't make their unwillingness to acknowledge Nazi actions any less serious however.

But, if there was one thing that the IRA were aligned on it can be summed up in the sentence, "England’s difficulty was Ireland’s opportunity". A rather naive continuation of the Irish support for Germany that occurred during the First World War.
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12-07-2019, 08:56   #207
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Used to be. At the end of the nineteenth century the focus of the Jewish community in Dulblin was in Portobello, along the South Circular Road, and up Clanbrassil Street a bit.

But it shifted over time. A couple of generations later the focus was definitely Rathgar/Terenure, and that's still where the principal synagogue and the Jewish schools are found. And, come to think of it, the Progressive synagogue as well. Whereas all the synagogues in and near Portobello have closed.

The community has grown quite a bit in the last fifteen or twenty years due to immigration. But many of the incoming Jews are young, single, relatively transient and not necessarily very plugged-in to Jewish community life and institutions in Ireland. So, though I don't know for sure, I suspect that as regards where they live they aren't concentrated in any particular area but are quite dispersed throughout the kind of areas where young, single, internationally-mobile adults are prone to rent accommodation.
Thank you for correcting me

I should have said it used to be the Jewish quarter
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12-07-2019, 08:58   #208
 
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Originally Posted by ILoveYourVibes View Post

The Belfast Jew Leonard Kaitcer, a wealthy antiques dealer, was abducted from his house by the IRA in 1980 and held for ransom. This was apparently legitimate because he was a "capitalist".
The IRA kidnapped quite a few prominent business people during the Troubles. All sorts of awful actions were considered “legitimate” in the context of its armed struggle; it’s nothing to do with anti-semitism.
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12-07-2019, 09:01   #209
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Why does being Jewish automatically imply a person must hold a position on Zionism or on the arpatheid the Israeli state pursues?

While the Israeli state presents itself as a homeland for all Jews, it doesn't follow that therefore all Jews are responsible for the acts of the state.

Not even all Israelis are responsible. And not all Israelis are obligated to hold a position on it.

And as for Israel being a homeland for all Jews etc. well they don't always stand up for jews in other countries and against anti semitic leaders if they support Israel.
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12-07-2019, 09:01   #210
 
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Be very suspicious of tory/unionist leaning publications implying the provos were anti Semitic/in cahoots with the nazis. Very suspicious.

Loyalist paramilitaries however have most certainly liaised with far right extremists (before they pretended to be allies of the Jews - merely to stick it to Palestinians).
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