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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Proposals from Deer Alliance for future seasons

  • 23-09-2020 5:35pm
    #1
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Got a call today from a friend about proposals that have been submitted to the NPWS, DoLG/H/H (Dept of Local Government, Hertitage, Housing), and i presume DoE. They were submitted to the relevant Departments by the Deer Alliance with regards to changes they want to see implemented by March 2021 (next year). They are:
    1. All Deer Hunting Licenses (DHL) should run in conjunction with the license timeframe of the firearm to which the license is attached. IOW a three year deer license with your deer caliber rifle.
    2. All persons, even those with licenses prior to the implementation of the new guidelines this year, need to do competence assessment courses within the next 5 years. So everyone will have to have done a course to prove they are competent regardless whether its your first or fiftieth season.
    3. Land owner permission should be dispensed with and replaced with competence certificate. As there was an exemption to the signed land owners permission this year due to the China virus, they claim this sets a precedence and all future land owner permissions should be dispensed with in lieu of the certificate of competence (they say from the HCAP but any certificate will suffice). Meaning once you have done the course you can shoot as you like.
    4. Introduction of an €80 fee for the DHL to run concurrently with your firearm license in a bid to generate revenue for other proposals listed below.
    5. An online facility/site to accommodate application which can be completed and renewed online rather than via the post every three years.
    6. All of this to come into effect by no later than March 2021.


    Discuss.
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«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    How did they come up with these proposals?

    Is this the brainfart of an individual that got it ratified by a committee or was it voted on and approved by all members?

    Sounds like a money making scheme to me.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • #3
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    €80 licence for dhl will only encourage those in the sport to recoup their outgoings by selling venison. I currently spend rifle licence 27€ annually roughly, Nargc insurance fund(Gun club fee) €70 and ammunition maybe €50(including confirming zero) I don’t want another charge personally.

    No issue with three year licence, however they will still want animal shooting returns and most won’t bother every year if licence is renewed already.

    As for HCAP etc, I’d say not a bad idea in theory. However I have reservations about private companies etc. Plus the Covid 19 can’t see how courses can be run in the short to medium future.

    It’s a nightmare to reform and no silver bullet


  • #4
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    It's also going to encourage some individual to take control of the running of these courses.

    5,515 licences issued last year, multiply that by 80 euro is over 440 grand, that's a lot of money.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • #5
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    What proposals are being funded by the charge?

    Trips to New Zealand to study deer management ?


  • #6
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Chiparus wrote: »
    What proposals are being funded by the charge?

    Apparently the cost to set up, run and maintain an online site for applications and renewals.
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  • #7
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Chiparus wrote: »
    What proposals are being funded by the charge?


    5: A fee of up to €80.00 should be applied to each application for a three-year DHL, in line with the fee of €80.00 applied to the three-year Firearms Certificate. The revenue from the three-year DHL (projected at up to €480000.00 or an annualised €160000) would more than cover the cost of a switch to an online system. The cost saving in dispensing with verification of landowner permissions and physical issue of DHLs (to be downloaded by the applicant after online application and grant) can also be factored in.


  • #8
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Chiparus wrote: »
    What proposals are being funded by the charge?

    Trips to New Zealand to study deer management ?

    There would want to be some pretty detailed costing breakdowns made available to all interested parties and individuals to accompany that proposal.

    John Delaney hasn't taken over the Deer Alliance has he?

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • #9
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    All jokes aside It maybe someone corrupt for all We know.


  • #10
    Uinseann_16
    Registered Users Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Uinseann_16


    I personally am not a fan of the mandatory courses its just a money racket:rolleyes:

    There is nothing you will learn in them that is anything special


  • #11
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    This started three years ago with their initial push for mandatory courses for newcomers to the sport which the Minister ratified and initiated this year but these new proposals seek to push this to all hunters/stalkers.

    Given there is a financial benefit to those running these courses, and as they are the same as the ones pushing these proposals, there is a conflict of interest.

    I've also been reading comments from members of the deer commission and other deer groups on FB and most members seem oblivious to these proposals with some claiming they knew nothing about them or to the extent of the proposals and how much they [the proposals] wanted to change things.

    This is a repeat of the previous secret proposals in the past ten years from the sports coalition and other vested interest groups.
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  • #12
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    There are other problems.

    The issue about not needing land permission. They claim a precedence was set this year, but the permissions were not voided, they were simply eased due to the current situation. However claiming that a course gives you authority to enter any lands will cause a sh*t storm of trouble and lads are not known for sharing lands. The comparison to driving is redundant and asinine. You pay tax on the car, the fuel, actual road tax, insurance which all go to the exchequer and that pays for the roads you drive on and the constitution gives you the freedom to travel unmolested within the state. There is no constitutional law for deer hunting.

    The three year license sounds good, but what about returns. Do they move to every three years too? Or are they to remain yearly in which case the paperwork is slightly reduced not eliminated.

    Then there is the issue of the course itself. The proposals name the hcap, but its not the only one as they found out when they initially pushed the mandatory course. As said above it creates a conflict of interest when proposals seek to legislate for a mandatory course that will be of financial gain to those pushing for the legislation.

    This leads us onto the actual legislation which will need to be changed to allow for these changes. It also makes me question the ability of the authors to understand the legalities of what they are proposing when they discuss issues such as the 100 acres being eliminated when its not a rule, law or anything like it. There is no legal basis for 100 acres. Its a clause the NPWS introduced and to get around the illegality of them demanding it they claim anyone who cannot produce this as a minimum will be refused a license under the "unsuitability" of anything less.

    There seems to be, not insignificant, legal issues, as with the other proposals in the last ten years, which will prohibit these proposals from being implemented, however the danger is, as with previous proposals, that the Government will take the opportunity to change the laws based on the "majority" seemingly willingly open to change, to introduce more restrictive ones which will not resemble those proposed.

    I'm not opposed to change and in situations like this its needed however the proposals should be open, transparent, published to all, voted on by all, and only then submitted. Not done in secret and submitted by a self declared group.
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  • #13
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    There's something not quite right about these shehannigans.

    I remember trying to join a Deer Hunting association a couple of years ago and they were up in a heap because the secretary had left or was asked to leave after being exposed as not having the interests of the association at heart. Turned out he was a bit of a control freak with a flair for self promotion, I wonder whatever happened to him.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • #14
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Cass wrote: »
    Given there is a financial benefit to those running these courses, and as they are the same as the ones pushing these proposals, there is a conflict of interest.

    Well, I kinda did predict this, just a few weeks ago............

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114569937&postcount=86
    Grizzly 45 wrote:
    ..........deer associations...........
    is supposedly their beat,have been remarkably absent and not very vocal on this matter...Would have thought this is their moment now?
    Kramer wrote: »
    Their moment to sidle in, tie licensing into mandatory testing, expensive testing only they can offer, ultimately becoming the ones issuing licences?

    Probably just me being cynical - never would anything like that happen in the target shooting/hunting communities.

    There's certainly no historical evidence of "representative" groups trying to grab control, is there?

    :p.

    This really is a terrible country for this sh1t, I despair, I really do :(.

    Start an "organisation", start it with "national", or "Irish", end it in "association" or similar, throw up a Facebook/Twitter page, post away for a while, then profess to be "the" leading national association representing "members", lobby government as such:

    Then:

    BOOM - money/control/power rolls in, underwritten by legislation :mad:.


  • #15
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    There's something not quite right about these shehannigans.

    I remember trying to join a Deer Hunting association a couple of years ago

    :D.


  • #16
    Zxthinger
    Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    The government aren't interested in 80€ per licence. They're only introducing a charge in a effect to reduce licence numbers.

    There staff can't handle the numbers on a good day.. it's all a plot to weed out deer hunter numbers and nothing more.

    HCAP are lining their own nest and to be honest there course is of little use.. as it doesn't cover enough detail.
    In all fairness how can you learn enough about deer in one day with a few slides. Lol


  • #17
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Cass wrote: »
    [*]All persons, even those with licenses prior to the implementation of the new guidelines this year, need to do competence assessment courses within the next 5 years. So everyone will have to have done a course to prove they are competent regardless whether its your first or fiftieth season.

    This is what they want. The licences are just the means to make this mandatory.
    This "3 year" licence is a smokescreen to distract from the mandatory (private & expensive) competency testing.

    Look at the HCAP for example.

    When all 5,500 deer hunters are mandated to "recertify" every 3 years, at €165 per head, that'll produce a nice €250,000 per year, into the hands of a nice private "group".

    Can anyone tell me how that will benefit existing deer hunters, deer hunters who have stalked for generations without issue etc.?
    Will it benefit deer?

    It's pretty obvious what is happening...............it's happened before.........it'll happen again.
    It's an Irish thing I think :D.


  • #18
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Kramer wrote: »
    When all 5,500 deer hunters are mandated to "recertify" every 3 years, at €165 per head, that'll produce a nice €250,000 per year, into the hands of a nice private "group".
    Don't forget about written exams, books and of course re-tests (the gift that keeps on giving).

    I've been to a LOT of hcaps. I mean a lot of them. On one particular day a chap done, if i recall correctly, 7 retests (1 deer target, and eventually 3 full repeats), and got his "certificate of competency" at the end of it.

    Just think about that for a minute. This chap, for whatever reason, could not put 6 rounds (in total, 2 at each stage) into a deer at 40, 60 and 100 yards. After doing this 7 times, the last one privately when everyone else was done, he walked out with a certificate to say he was competent.

    I know some lads mess up on the day. A lot of eyes on you and pressure, especially given the money some lads invest in rifles, leases, etc. so a miss is expected, but at some point you have to say to someone you're not fit nor safe to hunt, take up Golf.
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  • #19
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Cass wrote: »
    All Deer Hunting Licenses (DHL) should run in conjunction with the license timeframe of the firearm to which the license is attached. IOW a three year deer license with your deer caliber rifle.
    About time an all.:rolleyes:
    All persons, even those with licenses prior to the implementation of the new guidelines this year, need to do competence assessment courses within the next 5 years. So everyone will have to have done a course to prove they are competent regardless whether its your first or fiftieth season.
    Money for somebody no doubt in that.:rolleyes::rolleyes: Bad idea,as then we need to start talking training and course standards,who trains the trainers?Be intresting to know what training qualifications the trainers have at the moment themselves,and have they sat their own courses and passed?:p

    What happens then when we have all passed these courses,and now we have educated poachers and ligit deer stalkers,and everyone is qualified with this final mission creep out of Coilte woods?Or will it be, you need a "refresher course every 3 years in stalking to keep your knowledge up to date!":rolleyes:
    NOT a good idea for us TBH. This HCAP was intended for Coilte woods only,but has crept out due to vested intrests,and this is now a push to get us all in the net and profit from this.
    Land owner permission should be dispensed with and replaced with competence certificate. As there was an exemption to the signed land owners permission this year due to the China virus, they claim this sets a precedence and all future land owner permissions should be dispensed with in lieu of the certificate of competence (they say from the HCAP but any certificate will suffice). Meaning once you have done the course you can shoot as you like.

    So a landowner will have no say on who he then allows on his property then for 3 years?What happens if the landowner dies,sells the land passes it onto someone who is anti hunting,or has a falling out with the stalker? Or anything of the kind? There has to be a refusal mechanism for the land owner as well in this proposition.The simplest is not grant permission to stalk on the land.Otherwise the land owner has to have some way of directly informing the NPWS that he has revoked permission for the stalkers on his land.I doubt any farmer/landowner would allow an uninterrupted cycle of stalkers on his land without some sort of opt out for him?
    Introduction of an €80 fee for the DHL to run concurrently with your firearm license in a bid to generate revenue for other proposals listed below.

    NO!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! There is no guarantee that this will stay at 80 euros for a period longer than 12 months. Unless it is enshrined in the act,and takes a legislative change to increase the price.This will just become a money cow,and blamed on cost of administration and all the other justifications and slowly creep up as well. NEVER let and fight to the death on any monetary applications by a Govt dept on what was free before.

    Also do the math on this which makes no sense.
    We have now a figure of appx 5,500 liscenses in 2020 from the ministers statement 5,500X80 = 440,000 euros every 3 years = 146,666 Per annum divided by 36,000 an average beuracrat lower salary going by their last salary package offerings four yeas ago.It employs 4 NPWS people for a year with some chump change for the office party....

    So they will need 4 people to operate a computer programme,that should cost no more than 500,00 to develop,procure and instal and test run,but being a Govt contract will be at least 1.5 million in total budget and take 3 years to develop and instal.... WHO IS KIDDING WHO HERE???:mad:


    An online facility/site to accommodate application which can be completed and renewed online rather than via the post every three years.[/I]

    Provided they can assure DPA compliance and secure information storage...And we can also do bag returns on it??

    All of this to come into effect by no later than March 2021.
    In what parallel universe Ireland are they thinking this will happen???:rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Name me ONE Govt dept change or Irish Govt project in the last 30 years that has come on stream...Ontime within specification,within it's budget,that has worked straight away,and hasn't had some glitches that are only discoverd later on,or is so rigid ,it cant be adapted to more detailed information...[Looking at you Garda Pulse system]. Unless they are willing to make this an open bid for this project and ignore all the ol pals and brown paper envelopes and drinkies in the golf club deals.We will end up with the same sort of POS system as AGS did with the PULSE ,and we'll be no better off.

    ALSO
    Question not asked,and just as pertinent.
    What happens with your foreshore liscense??Will this system be adapted to deal with these applications online as well??If so it also raises the questions;

    1] Will duck hunters also be required to pay 80 euros?

    2]Per annum or every 5 years?

    3] Will they be rquired to do some sort of certification as well?Or is it only deer hunters being discriminated against on this?We end up paying as a minority group compared to duck hunters/game shooters/rough shooters for the whole system and they enjoy its usage for free,as you can be double damn sure,they will end up in this net too.

    4] Will the hangover from the troubles as to what rifle,serial number and ammo type be dispensed with? NPWS cant actually cross reference this with AGS due to DPA anyway,and this act was written pre privacy and data protection laws?


    Too many unanswerd questions here that need alot more answers from the Govt depts and whomever else before we sign off on this.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #20
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Cass wrote: »
    but at some point you have to say to someone you're not fit nor safe to hunt, take up Golf.

    No Cass, that's not the way it works here in Ireland.

    Take, for example, the green party.
    In 2011, the Irish public basically told them "you're not fit to govern". 2020, they're back in government :D.

    Actually, in that vain, FG were told the same in February. They've not yet got the message though.

    Anyway, I wonder if there will be a Boardsie special or group deal for the mandatory testing? Maybe we should set up a gofundme for the deer associations?

    :D.


  • #21
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Or will it be, you need a "refresher course every 3 years in stalking to keep your knowledge up to date!":rolleyes:

    Of course you will :pac:.

    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Also do the math on this which makes no sense.
    We have now a figure of appx 5,500 liscenses in 2020 from the ministers statement 5,500X80 = 440,000 euros every 3 years = 146,666 Per annum divided by 36,000 an average beuracrat lower salary going by their last salary package offerings four yeas ago.It employs 4 NPWS people for a year with some chump change for the office party....

    At 39 hours per week, it would take just one employee to process 3 licences per hour, or 24 per day, to cover all licences.


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  • #22
    richiedel123
    Registered Users Posts: 457 ✭✭richiedel123


    I remember questions about doing courses and a fee on it.
    Too many groups claiming they are doing this and that and none of them doing feck all. I just read their aims and objectives. Give them a read. It's a good laugh now that I have read their proposals haha


  • #23
    Heavy handed
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭Heavy handed


    It was more the man over the HCAP that drafted these proposals and is rightly so getting roasted on social media for putting forward the idea of charging €80 for the DHL. utter nonsense asking us to pay up for the departments lack of modernisation. I don’t remember been consulted or asked about suggestions and improving the system so why does these groups think this is what we want.


  • #24
    kenneths
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭kenneths


    Hi All.
    As secretary of the Irish Deer Commission I can categorically state that these proposals have nothing to do with the Irish Deer Commission.

    They are the sole ideas of Liam Nolan whom is the Deer Alliance/ Hcap.

    Could an Admin please PM in regards to this topic if further clarity is required.

    Regards.

    Kenneth Sewell


  • #25
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    kenneths wrote: »
    Hi All.
    As secretary of the Irish Deer Commission I can categorically state that these proposals have nothing to do with the Irish Deer Commission.

    They are the sole ideas of Liam Nolan whom is the Deer Alliance/ Hcap.

    Glad to hear irish deer commission is distancing itself from this, but I'm perplexed.


  • #26
    kenneths
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭kenneths


    Please see that this is a proposal by the Deer Alliance.
    From the website it states....

    http://deeralliance.ie/blog/suggested-reform-of-the-deer-hunting-licence-dhl-system/


  • #27
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Liam Nolan is getting a hammering and booting over on FB with these proposals.:eek:

    A good point made was this.Did the costs of any of the more important documentation that we need in Irish life rise in cost when it went online? IOW we would be rewarding incompetency in a govt dept,if we let this go ahead in this format.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #28
    viper123
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭viper123


    I would agree to some of it but would disagree with points 2 and 3. Two is clearly a money racket for the alliance thats proposing it, and for 3 it would be ridiculous to be able to get a licence only because you have competence irrespective of if you have land to shoot on or not. Theres enough poaching happening now by licencees with no permission to shoot.
    I'd be for a fee for a stalking permit so long as it was ringfenced towards deer welfare and patrols rather than paying for a system which should have been in place years ago. At the end of the day there are maybe 5-10k applications per year no need for a complex online system when it can just be a simple case of apply via email


  • #29
    garrettod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Cass wrote: »
    Got a call today from a friend about proposals that have been submitted....

    Hi Cass,

    Assuming it wouldn't get you, or your friend, in trouble, is it not time for hunters to make it very clear to the Minister that they have not been consulted on this and that they do not support it, for X, Y, Z reasons?

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #30
    Sika98k
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Sika98k


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    There's something not quite right about these shehannigans.

    I remember trying to join a Deer Hunting association a couple of years ago and they were up in a heap because the secretary had left or was asked to leave after being exposed as not having the interests of the association at heart. Turned out he was a bit of a control freak with a flair for self promotion, I wonder whatever happened to him.

    He went off and formed his own little group where he could issue statements of great peril and alarm to the general public on deer, their welfare and management or failed management as “a spokesman”
    Go figure, I love me, what’s your hobby ?


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  • #31
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    viper123 wrote: »
    I would agree to some of it but would disagree with points 2 and 3. Two is clearly a money racket for the alliance thats proposing it, and for 3 it would be ridiculous to be able to get a licence only because you have competence irrespective of if you have land to shoot on or not. Theres enough poaching happening now by licencees with no permission to shoot.
    I'd be for a fee for a stalking permit so long as it was ringfenced towards deer welfare and patrols rather than paying for a system which should have been in place years ago. At the end of the day there are maybe 5-10k applications per year no need for a complex online system when it can just be a simple case of apply via email

    No money would be ringfenced. Unfortunately it would be used for whatever purpose they want. Motor tax money does not go to repairing roads, if it did we’d have the best roads in the world.


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