Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:14am

padser wrote: »

Sorry but I think that's a little naive (assuming you believe this is the case now as opposed to this being an idealistic "how I'd like it to be" statement).

Ultimately all teams (exception being ones that are privately owned and thus don't need money from fans) are governed by fans.

Dawnson has to keep fans coming through the turnstiles. In the short term (a matter of months) he can ignore fan demands and say "I know best" but in the medium term (ie around 1 cycle of season tickets) he will have to change coach if it's damaging revenue.

All clubs are fan governed at the end of the day

No I don't believe this is the case now. Nor do I believe it'll ever be the case, as ofcourse they are professionals and the only thing that'll make MOC feel the heat is results.

Ofcourse in terms of ticket sales and revenue the fans are the integral part to that turn over, and if we fail to get results then those fans will disappear and ofcourse Dawson will look as to why that's happening and look to address it.

My point was he's never going to listen to a 'fan revolt', i.e cries of MOC out from the stands.

awec · 02-04-2015 11:17am

I'm a firm believer in the MOC IN fan group anyway.

I have heard the new stand at the RDS may in fact be named after him.

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:20am

The Welcome Matt?

:pac:

The_Captain · 02-04-2015 11:23am

padser wrote: »

Ignoring peoples personal opinions on whether or not it's warranted, how far do you think we are from chants of of 'MOC out" in the RDS?

It would be a huge change in the RDS to see it, I'd worry we might see it if we lost to Bath and were then trailing in a Pro12 game by double scores at home.....

Very unlikely, but then the only time Leinster have finished outside the top 3 in the Celtic League has been under Gary Ella. He's going to make himself very unpopular if we doesn't make the play-offs.

Sangre · 02-04-2015 11:34am

At this stage, would people prefer a HC semi or Pro 12 playoff?

total former · 02-04-2015 11:34am

It makes me sad that we're 48 hours away from a home European Cup quarter final and all some people want to talk about, or are able to talk about, is getting rid of the coach. I just don't get this mentality.

errlloyd · 02-04-2015 11:35am

Sangre wrote: »

At this stage, would people prefer a HC semi or Pro 12 playoff?

If there was any other semi (than away to toulon) I'd take the semi. But given its away go toulon I'd take the pro12

irishbucsfan · 02-04-2015 11:37am

I would definitely take a Pro 12 semi final. Were in no shape to make a European run this season, but not placing high in the Pro 12 will directly affect our chances of progressing in Europe next season. I'd happily take a loss to Bath if promised a win over Ulster in return.

Synode · 02-04-2015 11:38am

With the squad of players we have (especially O'Brien and Healy returning), I really think anything less than both is a disappointing season

Sangre · 02-04-2015 11:42am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would definitely take a Pro 12 semi final. Were in no shape to make a European run this season, but not placing high in the Pro 12 will directly affect our chances of progressing in Europe next season. I'd happily take a loss to Bath if promised a win over Ulster in return.

Yeah I'd agree with that.

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:44am

errlloyd wrote: »

If there was any other semi (than away to toulon) I'd take the semi. But given its away go toulon I'd take the pro12

I want to play Toulon again. I don't care if we're in ****e form right now and they're in brilliant. You want to see your team take the best on.

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:46am

Synode wrote: »

With the squad of players we have (especially O'Brien and Healy returning), I really think anything less than both is a disappointing season

Really? We're all but formally out of the running for the Pro12 semi I think, and Bath are playing really, really well currently.

I don't think there's any shame in it, if I'm being honest. BOD nailed it on the head for me earlier in that article, expectations are too high, we see players with international caps and 'pedigree' and expect them to walk us over the line every time.

padser · 02-04-2015 11:47am

.ak wrote: »

No I don't believe this is the case now. Nor do I believe it'll ever be the case, as ofcourse they are professionals and the only thing that'll make MOC feel the heat is results.

Ofcourse in terms of ticket sales and revenue the fans are the integral part to that turn over, and if we fail to get results then those fans will disappear and ofcourse Dawson will look as to why that's happening and look to address it.

My point was he's never going to listen to a 'fan revolt', i.e cries of MOC out from the stands.

To be fair, the two things (fan "revolts" as you put it, and declining attendances) are highly correlated events. Assuming Dawson will ignore what fans are saying but then respond once they stop coming through the gates doesn't really make sense.

It is like saying a CEO in a consumer company would ignore leading indicators of falling profits (like lower footfall, or lower average basket price) because it hadn't yet hit the bottom line. It's unlikely, good CEOs tend to pay attention to those indicators before they start impacting the bottom line (that actually what makes them good indicators).

We also see this all the time in other sport, clubs in soccer change managers regularly when fans start to voice disapproval. I personally think they so too regularly, but really all they are doing in responding to market pressure. Sport is an entertainment business and the old adage "he who pays the piper calls the tunes" holds true.

I think Sangres point about fans being like shareholders in some ways makes a lot of sense. It doesn't mean they make day to day decisions, but they have a lot of sway in the medium term into big decisions.

thomond2006 · 02-04-2015 11:48am

.ak wrote: »

I want to play Toulon again. I don't care if we're in ****e form right now and they're in brilliant. You want to see your team take the best on.

I want to sit in the middle of the Leinster diehards chanting Pilou Pilou in my Toulon jersey.

errlloyd · 02-04-2015 11:49am

.ak wrote: »

I want to play Toulon again. I don't care if we're in ****e form right now and they're in brilliant. You want to see your team take the best on.

Really? Bit of a sadist? The away semi stacks the deck against us in a major way. I have a feeling we will get exposed in all sorts of awful ways.

irishbucsfan · 02-04-2015 11:51am

Fans are wrong a lot of the time. And luckily Dawson has been in the position he's in enough to be completely aware of that. Fans will turn up when the team wins, and so the best decision he can make is to put the team into the best position for it to win long term, he has a great track record of doing that throughout his time in charge.

Synode · 02-04-2015 11:55am

.ak wrote: »

Really? We're all but formally out of the running for the Pro12 semi I think, and Bath are playing really, really well currently.

I don't think there's any shame in it, if I'm being honest. BOD nailed it on the head for me earlier in that article, expectations are too high, we see players with international caps and 'pedigree' and expect them to walk us over the line every time.

Accepting defeat before a ball has been passed? I really hope the players aren't thinking like that.

I still think we'll make the playoffs

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:55am

errlloyd wrote: »

Really? Bit of a sadist? The away semi stacks the deck against us in a major way. I have a feeling we will get exposed in all sorts of awful ways.

Live and die by the sword.

Any any given Sunday we're capable of beating anyone in the world. We're obviously misfiring as a team and there are issues from the ground up, but we're not that far off settling and all the players we have are capable of going toe to toe with the best.

Also, I'd love to beat them. They're becoming the new Clermont for us, it almost feels like a derby for some reason even though we haven't faced them often. Just something about the last 4 years sharing the spoils of war between the two teams... it's a real grudgematch, even if we are far apart in terms of form.

Yeah... Beating them in the South of France when everyone has written us off is the stuff dreams are made of.

... thing is we'll struggle to get there in the first place, such is Bath's form.

thomond2006 · 02-04-2015 11:55am

Not really exclusive to this thread but one of the worst decisions/changes EPCR made was to have the quarter and semi-finals two weeks apart instead of the previous three. It puts a lot more pressure on supporters to organise travel.

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:56am

Synode wrote: »

Accepting defeat before a ball has been passed? I really hope the players aren't thinking like that.

I still think we'll make the playoffs

I'm sure the players don't think like that, but that's not what the discussion is about, is it?

Our (the fan's) expectations don't have to match the player's.

Tox56 · 02-04-2015 11:56am

.ak wrote: »

Really? We're all but formally out of the running for the Pro12 semi I think, and Bath are playing really, really well currently.

I don't think there's any shame in it, if I'm being honest. BOD nailed it on the head for me earlier in that article, expectations are too high, we see players with international caps and 'pedigree' and expect them to walk us over the line every time.

So where exactly would you draw the line with what is and isn't acceptable? I'm pretty baffled really if you (and BOD) think fans have their expectations too high if they're extremely unhappy with Leinster losing a home quarter final and failing to make the playoffs. We might not be the best squad in Europe but we're a hell of a lot better than that.

02-04-2015 11:56am

thomond2006 wrote: »

I want to sit in the middle of the Leinster diehards chanting Pilou Pilou in my Toulon jersey.

I don't want to drunkenly swap my Leinster shirt for a Toulon one again.

I looked like a sad washed up Nascar Car as I wandered back to the hotel that evening

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:57am

thomond2006 wrote: »

I want to sit in the middle of the Leinster diehards chanting Pilou Pilou in my Toulon jersey.

Don't you do that in terrace now anyway?

.ak · 02-04-2015 11:58am

Tox56 wrote: »

So where exactly would you draw the line with what is and isn't acceptable? I'm pretty baffled really if you (and BOD) think fans have their expectations too high if they're extremely unhappy with Leinster losing a home quarter final and failing to make the playoffs. We might not be the best squad in Europe but we're a hell of a lot better than that.

By what definition?

EDIT: Just for the record, I'd be very disappointed if it didn't come to pass, but my point is my expectations are cooled by the limitations and issues the team currently face.

irishbucsfan · 02-04-2015 11:59am

Tox56 wrote: »

So where exactly would you draw the line with what is and isn't acceptable? I'm pretty baffled really if you (and BOD) think fans have their expectations too high if they're extremely unhappy with Leinster losing a home quarter final and failing to make the playoffs. We might not be the best squad in Europe but we're a hell of a lot better than that.

Personally I think we are 50/50 to win this game. I'm going to be disappointed if we don't win but I won't be shocked. Do you think we're a considerably better team than this Bath team at the moment? If so, you should be unhappy if we lose, but you are also valuing things differently to myself and others.

thomond2006 · 02-04-2015 12:00pm

.ak wrote: »

Don't you do that in terrace now anyway?

No I'm a quiet little lamb who never says a word or ruffles any feathers.

total former · 02-04-2015 12:01pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Not really exclusive to this thread but one of the worst decisions/changes EPCR made was to have the quarter and semi-finals two weeks apart instead of the previous three. It puts a lot more pressure on supporters to organise travel.

Yeah it's brutal, but it's a side effect of the English and French leagues deciding that their play-offs would take centre stage.

There's a good chance the semis will feature three French teams so they might still get good crowds anyway.

02-04-2015 12:01pm

Bookies price us as 66% likely to win, which I'd make a little strong but not too over the top.

Teams that are 2/1 to win games do so all the time! Wouldn't be a shock at all if we don't beat Bath, we're not in great shape at the minute really. Not a vintage season by any stretch of the imagination.

errlloyd · 02-04-2015 12:02pm

.ak wrote: »

Live and die by the sword.

Any any given Sunday we're capable of beating anyone in the world. We're obviously misfiring as a team and there are issues from the ground up, but we're not that far off settling and all the players we have are capable of going toe to toe with the best.

It's kinda funny that within about 5 posts I suggested you were delusional and Synode gave out to you for writing us off.

Sadly I don't think this team can perform on any given Sunday. I don't think gopperth has ever put in a toulon beating performance for Leinster. And that's not to say I'd call for Madigan to start at ten. It's just that I think that all the great battles won by underdogs had equally great generals. Outhalves in this case who extracted the very best from every player around them.

Tox56 · 02-04-2015 12:16pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Personally I think we are 50/50 to win this game. I'm going to be disappointed if we don't win but I won't be shocked. Do you think we're a considerably better team than this Bath team at the moment? If so, you should be unhappy if we lose, but you are also valuing things differently to myself and others.

I think we're more like 60/40, we aren't considerably better at all but I think the team we will put out is better, a lot more experienced and we're at home

But a close loss to Bath in isolation is one thing, being knocked out at home in Europe and not even making the playoffs in the league (our first time outside the top 3 in eleven years) would be appalling, and I don't think that's a case of fan expectations being unrealistic. It's not even like we've been particularly unlucky in the league, so far we've pretty much got what's coming to us

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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