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How lucrative is a career in Computer Science?

2

Comments

  • #32
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    You can absolutely get a junior job via one of those bootcamps if you have a portfolio and a naive/desperate employer.

    I know many of these guys who now work as programmers.

    They are all crap though. You'll notice they use MongoDB for everything, even though it should really only be used as a bucket for non-relational data. The problem is they don't understand the fundamentals. A computer science degree teaches you these fundamentals.


  • #33
    kingbhome
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭kingbhome


    nedkelly123 wrote: »
    its very lucrative.. if you are good and talented ,engage in community etc ,you could expect 70 k after 5 years
    more if you go contracting .. i have friends getting 450 per day .. with no shortage of work
    im daily rate in a place the last 7 years on 370 per day..prob could get more elsewhere but i like it here


    How long does it take to get the qualifications needed for a salary like this. Is the 5 years you mentioned after the degree or this length of time to get it.


  • #34
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    You can absolutely get a junior job via one of those bootcamps if you have a portfolio and a naive/desperate employer.

    I know many of these guys who now work as programmers.

    They are all crap though. You'll notice they use MongoDB for everything, even though it should really only be used as a bucket for non-relational data. The problem is they don't understand the fundamentals. A computer science degree teaches you these fundamentals.

    There are so many great developers who have arts, statistics, business degrees. A computer science degree isn't the be all and end all to getting a job in software. In fact I know some guys that have a CS degrees that aren't great programmers.


  • #35
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    There are so many great developers who have arts, statistics, business degrees. A computer science degree isn't the be all and end all to getting a job in software. In fact I know some guys that have a CS degrees that aren't great programmers.

    These people have an aptitude for it. They're rare.

    Just like many (most) computer science graduates aren't good programmers.

    The best programmer I know didn't even go to college.

    But the problem with these bootcamps if they fool their graduates into thinking they are competent, when in fact they know almost nothing.

    Being a good programmer requires a large amount of knowledge, continuous learning, striving for continuous improvements, an aptitude for it, and a passion for it.


  • #36
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    These people have an aptitude for it. They're rare.

    Just like many (most) computer science graduates aren't good programmers.

    The best programmer I know didn't even go to college.

    But the problem with these bootcamps if they fool their graduates into thinking they are competent, when in fact they know almost nothing.

    Being a good programmer requires a large amount of knowledge, continuous learning, striving for continuous improvements, an aptitude for it, and a passion for it.

    I agree there are a lot of boot camps are money grabs but there are some good ones out there, go to a boot camp for 6 months and work on projects and developing skills at the weekend will leave you well competent for an entry level or junior developer role. Work hard and in 3 - 5 years, build up your contacts and then you'll be making the big bucks and moving into a contracting role with plenty of work.

    I was letting the op know that there are many alternative ways to get into software other than a CS degree but many insisted it was rubbish and if only a degree from MIT was good enough.


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  • #37
    GalwayGrrrrrl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭GalwayGrrrrrl


    kingbhome wrote: »
    How long does it take to get the qualifications needed for a salary like this. Is the 5 years you mentioned after the degree or this length of time to get it.

    It would be 5 years after the 4 year degree. So 9 years from now if you started today.


  • #38
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    These people have an aptitude for it. They're rare.

    And yet the average office clerk, who has no more interest in programming than the man on the moon , has the "aptitude" to write macro programs or to automate tasks.

    How is that possible if it the aptitude do be able to do it is so "rare"? Could the average office clerk do a bit of tinkering in brain surgery on the side you think? Tinker in industrial chemistry?

    I have pulled you up on your constant negativity on this topic before.


  • #39
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    They are all crap though. You'll notice they use MongoDB for everything, even though it should really only be used as a bucket for non-relational data. The problem is they don't understand the fundamentals. A computer science degree teaches you these fundamentals.

    If I am frontend developer, why do I care what the database is? If the wrong database is used, is not normalized correctly, missing indexes, not my problem. It is up to the DBA or backend team. So what if the developer does not have a understanding of the fundamentals if they don't work on backend.


  • #40
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Oranage2 wrote: »

    I was letting the op know that there are many alternative ways to get into software other than a CS degree but many insisted it was rubbish and if only a degree from MIT was good enough.

    I agree.

    I know people who started in a call centre after the Leaving Cert who are now developers without setting foot in college and worked upwards within the company.

    I know others coming from Arts who could barely use a computer now working as developers.

    You don't have to be top of the pile to be a developer. There's a reason the biggest Q&A site on the Internet is named after a programming error.


  • #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    There is a world of difference in recording the odd macro and programming. Likewise when it comes to things like databases, doing it correctly, and hacking something together to get it working.
    There are advantages in having done a CS degree, gives a grounding in a lot of area's, that people will be less likely to learn coming from any other route.

    But there is a element of snobbery about it, and its become a barrier to entry in lots of area's.
    That said you do meet CS Programmers who really are not very good, and even the good ones make common sense errors due to their own Narcissism.

    Narcissistic Coder Syndrome https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Narcissistic%20Coder%20Syndrome


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  • #42
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Computer science is far broader than simply software development and programming.

    Architecture, modules for graphic design, Business analysis, UI design etc.

    The careers available from it are vast. It's what you make of it, as with any other degree. It can range from extremely lucrative long term leadership positions, or remain as as a helpdesk junior support team member. Somewhere in between it ranged from DBAs, to creative work. Depends what you want, and how you work for it. Not everyone wants a high flying career with responsibility and pressure. Not everyone wants to take that consultancy contracting job with some risk. Plenty are perfectly happy with a lower stress DBA job running service desk tickets and clocking off to have stable family time at 4pm for just 3 days a week.

    To answer the question, it's as lucrative as you make it.


  • #43
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    beauf wrote: »
    There is a world of difference in recording the odd macro and programming.

    I agree, but my point is anybody can pickup the very basics. So someone looking to build a career needs to work from there.
    beauf wrote: »
    But there is a element of snobbery about it, and its become a barrier to entry in lots of area's.
    Agree. There's spades of it in this thread.

    beauf wrote: »
    That said you do meet CS Programmers who really are not very good, and even the good ones make common sense errors due to their own Narcissism.
    That's the same of any profession; bus drivers, nurses, dentists.

    Not all our teachers were good. Mostly were average or poor. One or two good or exceptional ones that we remember after leaving school.

    Not all doctors are good. Most are average and middle-of-the-road who struggled through med school with Pass degrees. Still are doctors though.


    But one poster here continues to put people off if you are not exceptional.


  • #44
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    salonfire wrote: »
    And yet the average office clerk, who has no more interest in programming than the man on the moon , has the "aptitude" to write macro programs or to automate tasks.

    How is that possible if it the aptitude do be able to do it is so "rare"? Could the average office clerk do a bit of tinkering in brain surgery on the side you think? Tinker in industrial chemistry?

    I have pulled you up on your constant negativity on this topic before.
    salonfire wrote: »
    If I am frontend developer, why do I care what the database is? If the wrong database is used, is not normalized correctly, missing indexes, not my problem. It is up to the DBA or backend team. So what if the developer does not have a understanding of the fundamentals if they don't work on backend.

    We've had this conversation many times before.

    You have no understanding of programming.

    Stop pretending you're a frontend developer. You're not. You've admitted it before. You also admitted your only "experience" is writing some macros for Excel to automate some tasks. As I told you before, writing macros for Excel is completely different to development and the two should not be compared. It's like saying you can do surgery because you've cut a steak before.

    Computer science has the highest drop out rate of any course. It's because of programming. Most people cannot do it. In previous conversations, even a computer science lecturer told you this, but you keep pretending it's not true.

    I don't understand what's going on with you.


  • #45
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    salonfire wrote: »
    I agree, but my point is anybody can pickup the very basics. So someone looking to build a career needs to work from there.

    The majority people aren't able to progress past the basics though. That is not always true of every other careers. More people would be able to drive a bus for example.

    Basically I think there is middle ground between everyone can code, and only an exceptional few can do it properly.

    But for sure there's more to IT than programmers ad engineers. Steve jobs was a case in point. But its also true to say not everyone has to top of their field, to have a rewarding career in it.


  • #46
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    salonfire wrote: »
    If I am frontend developer, why do I care what the database is? If the wrong database is used, is not normalized correctly, missing indexes, not my problem. It is up to the DBA or backend team. So what if the developer does not have a understanding of the fundamentals if they don't work on backend.

    I'm sure you've heard the joke...

    https://ifunny.co/picture/why-do-frontend-developers-eat-lunch-alone-AeRccxYm7


  • #47
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    You have no understanding of programming.

    Incorrect.
    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Stop pretending you're a frontend developer. You're not.

    Correct
    salonfire wrote: »
    If I am frontend developer,
    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    You also admitted your only "experience" is writing some macros for Excel to automate some tasks.

    Incorrect. I give examples how office clerks and administrators are able to understand the basics of programming.
    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    As I told you before, writing macros for Excel is completely different to development and the two should not be compared.
    I did not say there were. I said the basics could be understood.

    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Computer science has the highest drop out rate of any course. It's because of programming. Most people cannot do it.

    And the low points and entry criteria has nothing to do with it?
    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I don't understand what's going on with you.

    You come into all of these threads espousing how fantastic and exceptional you need to be to work as a developer. I am taking the opposite opinion to you based on what I see every day. That's how a discussion forum works.


  • #48
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You should check out the OP history of thread starting, if you think think this was a genuine query.

    Multi-posting is a friend of no-one. :)


  • #49
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    salonfire wrote: »
    You come into all of these threads espousing how fantastic and exceptional you need to be to work as a developer.

    How have you come to that conclusion?

    I have stated most people can't program and don't like it (we know this is true from computer science drop out rates) and how every tech company struggles to get programmers.

    I have also stated you don't need a degree to work as a programmer (e.g. you can do one of those crappy bootcamps), but because you lack the fundamentals you are not going to be good. I know this from experience, having hired hundreds of developers, and interviewed probably a thousand.

    Obviously there are all sorts of exceptions.

    But it is a fact most people can't program. Writing an Excel macro isn't programming. This is the fundamental issue here. You have no idea what the job of a programmer entails. Yet weirdly you have extremely aggressive opinions on this topic.

    What always happens is you end up revealing how little you know and then run away. This thread is a good example: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2057981623


  • #50
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    salonfire, here's some of your previous insights into programming:

    * any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"

    * writing financial software only requires basic software development skills

    * people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly

    * a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

    * design patterns are only for cutting edge developers

    You are free to continue giving your stupid opinion on this topic.


  • #51
    mr_fegelien
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭mr_fegelien


    beauf wrote: »
    You should check out the OP history of thread starting, if you think think this was a genuine query.

    Multi-posting is a friend of no-one. :)

    No, this time I really am genuine. I've been given an ultimatum by parents. Either do this course or get out of the house.


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  • #52
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    salonfire, here's some of your previous insights into programming:

    * any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"

    * writing financial software only requires basic software development skills

    * people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly

    * a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

    * design patterns are only for cutting edge developers

    You are free to continue giving your stupid opinion on this topic.

    All true, that's why people with only a Leaving Cert, people who have a degree in History, people who used to carry bricks for a living are now IT developers.
    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Obviously there are all sorts of exceptions.

    Great!! Now I see we are on the same page. I was happy to continue to challenge you until you accepted this truth!


  • #53
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You can do it. But the odds are stacked against you, and getting worse.
    Some 62.6 percent of the 44,636 developers who responded to Stack Overflow’s question about education said that they had majored in computer science, computer engineering, or software engineering. Another 9.3 percent had majored in another engineering discipline (i.e., mechanical, electrical, etc.). In third place, some 7.9 percent said they had majored in information systems, information technology, or system administration.
    What can we conclude from this data? Roughly three-quarters of developers have the equivalent of a bachelor’s degree or higher, and nearly as many (72 percent) earned that degree in their computer science, computer/software engineering, or another engineering field). Moreover, some 85 percent of respondents felt that a formal education is at least somewhat important; in the notes accompanying the survey data, Stack Overflow noted that this sentiment “is contrary to the popular idiom that you don’t need formal education to become a developer.”

    I'd say of jobs filled through Agencies and HR departments the % would be far higher.


  • #54
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    No, this time I really am genuine. I've been given an ultimatum by parents. Either do this course or get out of the house.

    Even this was real, that you have to be forced into it, is not promising.


  • #55
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    salonfire wrote: »
    All true

    I'm going to give an analogy to explain how stupid you're being.

    I buy some bricks and planks of wood, and use them to build a bridge over a very small river near my home. I now call myself a civil engineer and aggressively tell everyone all you need to be a civil engineer are some bricks and wood and anyone can do it.

    If you look at my post history you'll notice I only talk about three things: career advice (I try to bring balance to the discussions by giving the management perspective), computer science stuff, and rants about US politics.

    I stay in my lane. Maybe you should too?

    I know you're going to double down so there's no point having any further discussion with you.


  • #56
    Zascar
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zascar


    As already mentioned you dont need to be a programmer, loads of other types of roles. Look into Presales. You are the techy consultant for the sales guys - they can make very good money and you only need to be mildly technical. Also you could move into sales where the real money is made. There was a post here a few weeks back of a guy on serious money doing this.

    The two guys I know who earn the most amount of money are Solution Artchtects for Amazon - not in Ireland but they are on more than $200,000 including shares etc.


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    salonfire, here's some of your previous insights into programming:

    * any idiot can get a job as a software developer, even from just reading "Javascript in 24 Hours"

    * writing financial software only requires basic software development skills

    * people from non-IT backgrounds can become developers relatively quickly

    * a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

    * design patterns are only for cutting edge developers

    You are free to continue giving your stupid opinion on this topic.

    Well to be fair, those are all true.

    Which is partly why there are so many bad developers around. Present company excepted of course.


  • #58
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well to be fair, those are all true.

    They're not true.

    Let's just take this one as an example:

    * a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

    It doesn't even make sense.


  • #59
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    They're not true.

    Let's just take this one as an example:

    * a basic understanding of classes, entities and relationships is all you need to be a developer

    It doesn't even make sense.

    It means given a problem statement or business ask, you break it down, create your classes and viola you're done. Check in your code and move on to the next item of the day. Or go get a cup of coffee.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Which is partly why there are so many bad developers around. Present company excepted of course.

    And with tools like Informatica, that's literally drag and drop and pretty pictures to visualize the logic, you can get away being a bad or average developer.


  • #60
    Divisadero
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Divisadero


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I stay in my lane. Maybe you should too?

    I don't suppose there's any chance you could leave the motorway entirely?


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  • #61
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    No, this time I really am genuine. I've been given an ultimatum by parents. Either do this course or get out of the house.

    So, to sum up.
    • Your parents think you are leeching off them.
    • Your only question is how much money you can make after the course.

    These imply you have no ability to actually do work.

    Find what you want to do, and do that. CS is a difficult course, that you will fail if you don't at least have a passing interest in it.


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