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Jordan Peterson
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25-10-2017 2:24pmI've looked at a few of his lectures on youtube and what got me into watching him, were the "sort yourself out and clean your room!" snippets of self-help, that had been isolated from some of his lectures where he's diverted on a tangent and tells his audience how to deal with someone who needs structure in their lives to get them going again.
I like him and how articulate he is, how many of the ideas he has talked about, I would have found stupid in the past but compelling now. Like, the idea of the archetypes (which I dismissed as fanciful when I tried to read Jung), his rants about where nihilism and lack of meaning comes from (which I can relate to) and how intolerance of free speech could give rise to totalitarianism.
I'm not a philosophy student and I know little enough in any depth about it, but can anyone point out some of the bad points and shortcomings his ideas have?13
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Fox_In_Socks wrote: »I'm not a philosophy student and I know little enough in any depth about it, but can anyone point out some of the bad points and shortcomings his ideas have?
Rather than discuss the contents of Bill C-16, let's focus on the content of Peterson's statements about gender. Peterson opened the debate claiming that there were deep, pronounced differences between genders in terms of intellect and creativity. Men were higher in intellect, and women were higher in esthetics, consequently men read more nonfiction and women read more fiction. He claimed that this gender divide was "natural," not as a social construction, but rather biological.
The profound intellectual gender difference claims made by Peterson appeared as givens, and not debatable. His claims were not stated consistent with the scientific method, where empirical results from the analysis of data "suggest," and are not "givens" or immutable truths. So long as data continues to support these suggestions, and not be refuted by contrary evidence, they continue to be held, but with caution.
I will have to read the recent scholarly literature and what empirical studies "suggest" about intellectual differences by gender. When time permits I will. Certainly those reading these posts may conduct their review and post their findings.1 -
People are quick to knock him at the moment because it's fashionable, also, for some weird reason he's been referred to as Alt right when he's clearly an old school liberal. On that matter, I'd advise you to watch some more of his stuff and make up your own mind. His bitchy resting face is a running joke too. But none of these are answering your question.
Look, I think he's very copped on, and brave and I'm no genius so knocking him would be a futile exercise in intellectual vanity on my part, but one of his weaknesses is also one of his strengths. He's very honest about when he is still figuring out where he stands on matters but isn't quiet sure. I like that, it has both an intellectual honesty, but also it's the attitude of a confident person who thinks it's okay to not have everything figured out just yet.0 -
Well, from the lectures I’ve seen, he states that in terms of IQ, the genders are equal but the standard deviations of each is different. They average out in each case but there is a greater stretching of male intelligence. So a greater amount of below average intelligence/learning difficulties and then at the other end, more genius level types.
Deary, Ian J.; Irwing, Paul; Der, Geoff; Bates, Timothy C. (2007). "Brother–sister differences in the g factor in intelligence: Analysis of full, opposite-sex siblings from the NLSY1979". Intelligence. 35 (5): 451–6.
I think he has a point with the recent trend of trying to make everything into a social construct. For instance, if a woman is breastfeeding her child and she lactates spontaneously when her child cries in a different room (which I’ve been told about by a friend of mine), is the description of her as a mother a social construction? What term should I use if she self identifies as a father? Is father or mother appropriate?0 -
Black Swan wrote: »Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with the clinical psychology and philosophy of Jordan Peterson. Towards becoming a bit more familiar I recently watched the "Peterson Debate on Bill C-16 19th Nov 2016." I am assuming that this is the Peterson you wish to discuss in the video? If I am in error, please clarify.
Rather than discuss the contents of Bill C-16, let's focus on the content of Peterson's statements about gender. Peterson opened the debate claiming that there were deep, pronounced differences between genders in terms of intellect and creativity. Men were higher in intellect, and women were higher in esthetics, consequently men read more nonfiction and women read more fiction. He claimed that this gender divide was "natural," not as a social construction, but rather biological.
The profound intellectual gender difference claims made by Peterson appeared as givens, and not debatable. His claims were not stated consistent with the scientific method, where empirical results from the analysis of data "suggest," and are not "givens" or immutable truths. So long as data continues to support these suggestions, and not be refuted by contrary evidence, they continue to be held, but with caution.
I will have to read the recent scholarly literature and what empirical studies "suggest" about intellectual differences by gender. When time permits I will. Certainly those reading these posts may conduct their review and post their findings.
It depends on how you ultimately define intellect. Men and women have slightly different brains but over a material and significant sample size you will tend to find that those differences are negligible but generally you would also find that in IQ tests more men would feature at both the bottom and top than women. A lot of problem is the standard of social and humanities studies into this topic are generally biased.0 -
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People are quick to knock him at the moment because it's fashionableFox_In_Socks wrote: »Well, from the lectures I’ve seen, he states that in terms of IQ, the genders are equal but the standard deviations of each is different. They average out in each case but there is a greater stretching of male intelligence. So a greater amount of below average intelligence/learning difficulties and then at the other end, more genius level types.
If this HR was both valid and reliable, should the empirical evidence suggest that if males score higher IQs than females, they should exceed female higher education enrollments and degrees; i.e., evidence higher academic performance?
In the United States there were about 20.4 million students enrolled in colleges and universities fall 2017. Females accounted for the majority with about 11.5 million (56.4%) compared to 8.9 million males (43.6%) per the National Center for Education Statistics. What does this suggest regarding "academic performance" by gender?
Bachelor degrees awarded may suggest yet another question regarding academic performance by gender historically. During the 1949-50 academic year 76.1% of college and university enrolled males earned a 4-year degree compared with only 23.9% of females enrolled per Statista.com. There was a dramatic shift by gender when comparing the 2016-17 academic year with 1949-50 graduations. In 2016-17 there were 57.15% females graduating with 4-year degrees compared with 42.85% males. Makes me wonder if there may or may not be some evidence suggesting "behavioural styles" of different time periods by gender in US history as opposed to intelligence by gender?
Does more recent history suggest a small be significant shift by gender in academic achievement by the number of doctorate degrees awarded in the US? During the 2004-2005 academic year males received 50.1% of doctors degrees compared with females receiving 49.9%, suggesting a somewhat equal balance between genders for this highest degree (i.e., academic achievement), per the National Center for Education Statistics. Yet when compared with the 2014-15 academic year females were awarded 52.4% of doctorates while males received 47.6%.Obvious Otter wrote: »It depends on how you ultimately define intellect.Obvious Otter wrote: »Men and women have slightly different brains but over a material and significant sample size you will tend to find that those differences are negligible
One additional question that emerges from this mention of behavioural styles was the exhibition of concept intelligence between sexes, and if style affected both the IQ definition and measurement, and may in turn confound both the validity and reliability of measurement?
Approaching 4AM Pacific I am uncertain what all this may mean, or if problematic intelligence definitions, or questionable IQ measurements, or changing gender enrollment and graduation statistics suggest anything, but I am a bit doubtful of Peterson's claim that "Men were higher in intellect" than women. Odds are I may have made a few logical errors when posting, but such errors failed to keep me from yawning (from over work and lack of sleep).0 -
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Hello Black Swan, just read your reply there, wasn't commenting on you at all, it was with regard to feedback I've seen on other forums, I was answering the OP in case they were reading loads of derogatory remarks which I've noticed on youtube especially in the last couple of months.0
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TO Reply: I take on board what you say about him not referencing where he’s getting what he says are facts.
And I totally agree with regard to the evidence of women outperforming men in every stage of education.
Maybe it’s my tendency towards getting enthusiastic about someone who I find articulate and an authority figure who seems to be able to make sense of things or intérprete things in a way that I can’t. Maybe if I watch these videos, then it means that I think I am smart or informed. I haven’t done the required reading of Piaget, Nietzsche, Solzhenitsyn, Kirkigaard etc because a lot of the time, I’m bored or unable to take it in. Or lazy.
And I can’t make sense of statistics so if someone references a study, then I don’t know whether it’s valid or not cause I can’t get my head around them. So I rely on experts to do this for me and tell me the outcome. So I get caught up on someone like Peterson who is compelling to listen to, and then others like Black swan point out his shortcomings0 -
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Fox_In_Socks wrote: »So I get caught up on someone like Peterson who is compelling to listen to, and then others like Black swan point out his shortcomingsDoes Peterson control for different male and female behavioral styles when assessing gender intelligence?0 -
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Peterson often fails to define a concept that he talks about, often assuming that everyone knows what he means, as a given. For example, the Peterson video "The Curse of Creativity" assumes such, without a specific definition of what he is talking about. Does everyone know and share the identical definition of what "creativity" is, and do they nod their heads as if there is universal understanding of this concept?0 -
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Fire Fox linked Peterson in browser trending opening page yesterday. Suggested he was misunderstood.0 -
Based on his now highly viewed channel 4 interview, on youtybe count, Mr Peterson has moved into to main stream consiousness. His way of focusing on the issues discussed and handling of the counter arguements showed someone sure of his message. I will buy his book as he does look to practice what he preaches.0
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Black Swan wrote: »People are quick to knock him at the moment because it's fashionableFox_In_Socks wrote: »Well, from the lectures I’ve seen, he states that in terms of IQ, the genders are equal but the standard deviations of each is different. They average out in each case but there is a greater stretching of male intelligence. So a greater amount of below average intelligence/learning difficulties and then at the other end, more genius level types.
If this HR was both valid and reliable, should the empirical evidence suggest that if males score higher IQs than females, they should exceed female higher education enrollments and degrees; i.e., evidence higher academic performance?
In the United States there were about 20.4 million students enrolled in colleges and universities fall 2017. Females accounted for the majority with about 11.5 million (56.4%) compared to 8.9 million males (43.6%) per the National Center for Education Statistics. What does this suggest regarding "academic performance" by gender?
Bachelor degrees awarded may suggest yet another question regarding academic performance by gender historically. During the 1949-50 academic year 76.1% of college and university enrolled males earned a 4-year degree compared with only 23.9% of females enrolled per Statista.com. There was a dramatic shift by gender when comparing the 2016-17 academic year with 1949-50 graduations. In 2016-17 there were 57.15% females graduating with 4-year degrees compared with 42.85% males. Makes me wonder if there may or may not be some evidence suggesting "behavioural styles" of different time periods by gender in US history as opposed to intelligence by gender?
Does more recent history suggest a small be significant shift by gender in academic achievement by the number of doctorate degrees awarded in the US? During the 2004-2005 academic year males received 50.1% of doctors degrees compared with females receiving 49.9%, suggesting a somewhat equal balance between genders for this highest degree (i.e., academic achievement), per the National Center for Education Statistics. Yet when compared with the 2014-15 academic year females were awarded 52.4% of doctorates while males received 47.6%.Obvious Otter wrote: »It depends on how you ultimately define intellect.Obvious Otter wrote: »Men and women have slightly different brains but over a material and significant sample size you will tend to find that those differences are negligible
One additional question that emerges from this mention of behavioural styles was the exhibition of concept intelligence between sexes, and if style affected both the IQ definition and measurement, and may in turn confound both the validity and reliability of measurement?
Approaching 4AM Pacific I am uncertain what all this may mean, or if problematic intelligence definitions, or questionable IQ measurements, or changing gender enrollment and graduation statistics suggest anything, but I am a bit doubtful of Peterson's claim that "Men were higher in intellect" than women. Odds are I may have made a few logical errors when posting, but such errors failed to keep me from yawning (from over work and lack of sleep).
Peterson is very well cited clinical psychologist with a significant body of peer reviewed research. I would assume that as someone who is a practicing scientist he would understand that claims he makes on issues such as intellectual differences would be grounded in data. The fact that he has not had a debate on this very issue does not mean he is incorrect in his assessment. More importantly what do you derive from the fact that he made a statement such as this, do you believe him to be a sexist, incorrect or you just wanted to point out that he is prone to generalisations? From what I have seen of the man he seems to be quite open minded and if evidence presented itself to contradict his statement then he would be open to changing his position. It doesn't seem to me that this particular point has any bearing on his issue with Bill C-16. From what I can remember his issue with C-16 was with compelled speech and the introduction of a social constructionist view on gender into law0 -
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As far as I can glean from my modest review of his work, he does not address (in detail) the basis of his generalisations on this topic. I would point out that this is an aside though. Peterson does not seem to be overly concerned with the issue you seemed to focus on? Maybe that reveals an underlying bias you have, that from all of his available work you have zeroed in on intellectual differences between the sexes?I would assume that as someone who is a practicing scientist he would understand that claims he makes on issues such as intellectual differences would be grounded in data.More importantly what do you derive from the fact that he made a statement such as this, do you believe him to be a sexist...point out that he is prone to generalisations?From what I have seen of the man he seems to be quite open minded and if evidence presented itself to contradict his statement then he would be open to changing his position.0 -
In my opinion, watching his lectures on YouTube are a way of introducing someone like me to philosophy and psychology. It’s a starting point and there is a lot about what he says that I would question (and therefore move closer to something that is truth)
Contrast that with postmodernism where there is an infinite amount of ways to interpret something. Therefore, you can’t move in any direction cause you didn’t start out anywhere. And there is nowhere to move to, as everything is equal to everything else. No values.
At least Peterson takes a position.0 -
Not to be pedantic but his name isn't Jordan P Peterson. It's Jordan B Peterson.
B stands for Bernt.
Couldn't help myself when I saw the thread title. Carry on.0 -
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Fox_In_Socks wrote: »In my opinion, watching his lectures on YouTube are a way of introducing someone like me to philosophy and psychology. It’s a starting point and there is a lot about what he says that I would question (and therefore move closer to something that is truth)Fox_In_Socks wrote: »Contrast that with postmodernism where there is an infinite amount of ways to interpret something.
Derrida had a faculty appointment at my university until his death in 2004, consequently we have a large archive of his works in library. Admittedly, Derrida is a hard read, but like you observed about postmodernism, Derrida does examine phenomena from a multivariate approach, which is consistent with his general criticism of dichotomies. Derrida frequently challenges either/or, nominal data level treatments, which often represent oversimplistic bivariate categorisations, with one given preferential treatment over the other in common practice, thereby distorting measurement and validity.
Unlike Peterson's popular and easy to understand approach, Derrida was very complex when deconstructing such things as dichotomies, etc., with such complexity sometimes discouraging many readers (If you are having trouble getting to sleep at night, just start reading the first chapter in Points).0 -
re Black Swan's Post
Apologies but I'm struggling to understand your point. You write a lot of text but you say very little. Maybe your affection for Derrida has influenced your communication style as him and Lacan were masters of that! Peterson (from the little I know) doesn't seem overly concerned with Gender differences. He acknowledges that differences between individuals are more significant than differences between groups but that doesn't mean we cant look at the differences between groups to analyse and understand trends (career choice by gender for instance). Yes he may be a little casual or careless at times but he is generally being interviewed on other topics with a limited amount of time available to have a discussion. I think you would be better served focusing on how this data influences his worldview or the point he is making. In order to do that maybe you should try his book Maps of Meaning or listen to some of his lectures. His views on James Damore and Bill C-16 are a divergence from the topics he seems to be really interested in.
Also I think Peterson has some very strong views on the Post Modernists and Derrida in particular. He would likely find it amusing to be the subject of a Derrida Lite deconstruction!0 -
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re Black Swan's Post
I think you would be better served focusing on how this data influences his worldview or the point he is making. In order to do that maybe you should try his book Maps of Meaning
Jordan Peterson's (ebook) Maps of Meaning, bottom of page 37 states:2.2. Neuropsychological Function: The Nature of the Mind
It is reasonable to regard the world, as forum for action, as a “place” – a place made up of the familiar, and the unfamiliar, in eternal juxtaposition. The brain is actually composed, in large part, of two subsystems, adapted for action in that place. The right hemisphere, broadly speaking, responds to novelty with caution, and rapid, global “hypothesis-formation. ”The left hemisphere, by contrast, tends to remain “in charge” when things – that is, explicitly categorized things – are unfolding according to plan. The right hemisphere draws rapid, global, valence-based “metaphorical” pictures of novel things; the left, with its greater capacity for detail, makes such pictures explicit and verbal.
The oversimplistic right and left hemisphere model of the brain as written by Jordan Peterson in the above quote is terribly misleading at best, and down right spurious at worst. See Christopher Wanjek, "Left Brain vs. Right: It's a Myth, Research Finds," Live Science, 3 September 2013.0 -
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One of the videos listed by Fathom above showed Peterson asking for a show of hands by gender. He then noted that the vast majority of persons in his lecture audience were male. In reading almost 200 pages of Peterson's Maps of Meaning tonight, I found very little that would speak to, or benefit women. Perhaps that's why there were so few women in the audience? For example, on page 183 of his Maps of Meaning (ebook) Peterson affirmatively states, based upon his cherry picking from an assortment of myths, religion, psychiatry, and psychology (that selectively favour his world view in self-fulfilling fashion):The properly structured patriarchal system fulfills the needs of the present, while “taking into account” those of the future0 -
re Fathom
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this interjection? Are you deliberately trying to muddy the waters? Look at the conversation I'm having with Black Swan and try and understand what I am saying. Peterson has a wide ranging set of views on many issues but he also has a core philosophy. The flatness of the IQ distribution between men and women is in no way at the centre of his philosophy and I pointed out to Black Swan that it was pretty pointless to focus on that when it has little to do with his philosophy. The prounouns debate or the gender pay gap are entirely different issues to what we are discussing. So apologies if I didnt restate exactly what I meant as I did in my first post but I do credit that people I'm speaking dont need me to repeat things.0 -
Black Swan wrote: »re Black Swan's Post
I think you would be better served focusing on how this data influences his worldview or the point he is making. In order to do that maybe you should try his book Maps of Meaning
Jordan Peterson's (ebook) Maps of Meaning, bottom of page 37 states:2.2. Neuropsychological Function: The Nature of the Mind
It is reasonable to regard the world, as forum for action, as a “place” – a place made up of the familiar, and the unfamiliar, in eternal juxtaposition. The brain is actually composed, in large part, of two subsystems, adapted for action in that place. The right hemisphere, broadly speaking, responds to novelty with caution, and rapid, global “hypothesis-formation. ”The left hemisphere, by contrast, tends to remain “in charge” when things – that is, explicitly categorized things – are unfolding according to plan. The right hemisphere draws rapid, global, valence-based “metaphorical” pictures of novel things; the left, with its greater capacity for detail, makes such pictures explicit and verbal.
The oversimplistic right and left hemisphere model of the brain as written by Jordan Peterson in the above quote is terribly misleading at best, and down right spurious at worst. See Christopher Wanjek, "Left Brain vs. Right: It's a Myth, Research Finds," Live Science, 3 September 2013.
Ok now look at the date of the study you referenced and then look at the date Maps of Meaning was written. Some of the science may be out of date. You do seem to be engaging in some sort of confirmation bias though? Are you reading that large book with the sole aim of proving yourself correct? Why dont you just enjoy it for what it is? I'm not saying everything in it is entirely correct (and he is prone to hypebole) but he is an interesting thinker even if everything he says isnt 100% supported by scientific evidence. I would point out that it is more of a philosophical work than a scientific work though.0 -
Black Swan wrote: »One of the videos listed by Fathom above showed Peterson asking for a show of hands by gender. He then noted that the vast majority of persons in his lecture audience were male. In reading almost 200 pages of Peterson's Maps of Meaning tonight, I found very little that would speak to, or benefit women. Perhaps that's why there were so few women in the audience? For example, on page 183 of his Maps of Meaning (ebook) Peterson affirmatively states, based upon his cherry picking from an assortment of myths, religion, psychiatry, and psychology (that selectively favour his world view in self-fulfilling fashion):The properly structured patriarchal system fulfills the needs of the present, while “taking into account” those of the future0
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It would be difficult for me to comment without understanding that statement within the overall context of the larger point he is making.
Knocks out his science. What's left? Peterson's highly subjective interpretations of superstitious myths? Religion?
Peterson's hero discussions in Maps of Meaning (1999) add nothing new to Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949) or Myths to Live By (1972).0 -
re Fathom
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this interjection?Ok now look at the date of the study you referenced and then look at the date Maps of Meaning was written. Some of the science may be out of date.I'm not saying everything in it is entirely correct (and he is prone to hypebole)even if everything he says isnt 100% supported by scientific evidence.I would point out that it is more of a philosophical work than a scientific work though.
As to your other points all I have to say is LOL. How arrogant must you be to scan a work of that size and then just outright dismiss it? I'm sorry if Peterson doesn’t conform to your political bias so forgive me if I don’t put much faith in your ability to understand his work and make such a judgement. It's a shame that people lack true critical faculties these days due to their entrenched political views and their suspicion of anyone who diverts from the accepted narrative. Your extreme bias is pretty self evident from the way you are approaching the topic.
There is a good summary here if you care to read it
https://www.scribd.com/doc/276984986/Summary-and-Guide-to-Maps-of-Meaning-The-Architecture-of-Belief-by-Jordan-Peterson
It's not a scientific work; it's a philosophical/phenomenological work that draws on Neuropsychology and Evolutionary Psychology. Some of the science is out of date but that is no reason to dismiss the entire work. If we were to discard every work that contained some outdated science then we would be in a bit of a pickle epistemologically wouldn’t we?0 -
Black Swan wrote: »It would be difficult for me to comment without understanding that statement within the overall context of the larger point he is making.
Knocks out his science. What's left? Peterson's highly subjective interpretations of superstitious myths? Religion?
Peterson's hero discussions in Maps of Meaning (1999) add nothing new to Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949) or Myths to Live By (1972).
Re Joseph Campbell, I have just reread The Hero with a Thousand Faces and I'm bemused by your assertion. Of course Peterson is influenced heavily by Campbell and Jung but it is far from a rehash of their work.0 -
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Do you have an issue with reading comprehension?
As to your other points all I have to say is LOL. How arrogant must you be
It's a shame that people lack true critical faculties these days
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I've read through all the comments and wanted to add some thoughts, as well as reply to some points made during the course of this thread.
At least the ones that stood out enough for me to remember as I type this post.
I've been following his youtube videos from the beginning and for a good few years I think now. Having watched all his lectures and maybe all his videos, I have built up a fairly good picture of who he is and where he is coming from.
First of all we should acknowledge that JP(Jordan Peterson) has been working on, thinking about and doing his research for at least 2 decades.
He recently became well known after speaking out against attacks on freedom of speech(which he states is fundamental for thinking among/between groups/individuals respectively).
These attacks on freedom of speech were tangled up with the transgender issue due to "SJW" activists infiltrating government and universities(HR departments and social studies), while using trans people as the catalyst or weapon to shut down free speech relating to evidence and empirical data being spoken about regarding gender and sexuality.
This is where the battle between biological and social construction arguments appear.
The transgender thing is not JP's issue at all. He was concerned with free speech. The transgender issues became a platform where this battle over free speech became prominent because of the media and said infiltration of universities by "SWJ" philosophies.
I believe his data is well researched and if he was to brandish all the studies he has either run or referenced, his conversations would have no time to even begin.
For this reason it is difficult for him to have a conversation with people who have not watched most of his lectures. They will not understand where he is coming from in many cases.
I don't think making generalizations is problematic when you have very little time to make your point in an interview or lecture for that matter.
The body of work he is drawing from is huge and inaccessible to the lay person or college student. Hence the generalizations, which are mostly used to make a point that has to be simplified enough to be understood at the level of principles.
Left and Right brain myths
I saw mention about left and right brain myths.
I've been arguing against the idea that left and right brain theory is myth for at least 10 years, often getting a really bad reception in the psychology section of this site
I think that sticking too closely to studies and ignoring logic or observation can lead us astray for far longer than is necessary.
Not to say that things are so black and white, but there is obviously a big difference between the functionality of the left and right hemisphere and how this can effect personality and perspectives on reality among individuals.
For me it is a huge area of psychology that has been neglected to the detriment of all.
I could write pages on this topic, and have some interesting theories the last year or two about autism and dyslexia that is appearing to hold water after some recent studies.
Again science is a little behind what I would call open minded common sense. Which could better be translated as "Left brain judgement is a little behind right brain observations".
That translation is also loaded with hints on how the two relate to the world and each other.
Easier though is to share some videos that would quickly bring everyone up to date with more modern science and theories of the left and right hemisphere.
Please watch if you are in any way interested in human thinking, behaviour, psychology, philosophy etc.
Jordan Peterson and Iain McGilchrist in conversation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea4mEnsTv6Q
This video covers the basics of McGilchrist's research on the left and right hemispheres, as well as another taste of Jordan Peterson's views and thinking when speaking to someone more on his level with regards to neuro psychology/science.
Iain McGilchrist - "The Master and His Emissary"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRMiHwT0H4M
This is a nice presentation that goes more indepth on the right and left brain relationship in humans and animals.1
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