EV insurance prices

BoatMad · 22-05-2017 10:46pm

goz83 wrote: »

What if a thief turns the power on and then hits "decline" for sharing telemetry? Does that mean the vehicle can't be tracked?

I must say that it is the most annoying thing about my 141 Leaf. Having to accept/decline the same bloody message every single time. Why on earth didn't they just put it in as a setting in the menu....ideally with a password if someone wanted to change the setting....

I understand EU data protection law does not allow that

goz83 · 23-05-2017 8:25am

BoatMad wrote: »

I understand EU data protection law does not allow that

If the registered owner has put it into settings and there is a telemetry warning upon start-up, there would be no data protection issues.

BoatMad · 25-05-2017 7:47pm

goz83 wrote: »

If the registered owner has put it into settings and there is a telemetry warning upon start-up, there would be no data protection issues.

The system cannot assume the identify of the driver.

Just in the same way that the " use of cookies" law in the EU requires you to acknowledge it each time.

For example I might be the registered owner , but that is not sufficient for me to allow the car to transmit data when my wife , for example is driving

Hence the requirement to ask each time.

it can't be got around under current Eu law

goz83 · 25-05-2017 9:06pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The system cannot assume the identify of the driver.

Just in the same way that the " use of cookies" law in the EU requires you to acknowledge it each time.

For example I might be the registered owner , but that is not sufficient for me to allow the car to transmit data when my wife , for example is driving

Hence the requirement to ask each time.

it can't be got around under current Eu law

Really?

Wife gets into car owned by Husband who has accepted the terms and conditions. She presses the power button and something like

"this vehicle will send information to Nissan/The Guv/Madonna including location, battery temperature, speed etc etc. You agree to these terms by driving this vehicle. If you do not agree, please contact the registered owner to disable telemetry"

I have visited many websites where the cookies message does not require you to accept cookies manually, but acceptance is assumed if you continue to navigate the website. They use the implied consent rule.

BoatMad · 25-05-2017 9:22pm

"this vehicle will send information to Nissan/The Guv/Madonna including location, battery temperature, speed etc etc. You agree to these terms by driving this vehicle. If you do not agree, please contact the registered owner to disable telemetry"

my understanding is you can only " opt in " to data sharing , not opt-out under EU data protection

goz83 · 25-05-2017 11:10pm

BoatMad wrote: »

my understanding is you can only " opt in " to data sharing , not opt-out under EU data protection

I googled "eu cookies law" and the first result was https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/

When I visited the page on my pad, a pop up footer banner displayed and said that unless I changed the cookie settings, I was agreeing to cookies by continuing to use the site. There is also relevant info on the site page.

BoatMad · 28-05-2017 5:07pm

goz83 wrote: »

I googled "eu cookies law" and the first result was https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/

When I visited the page on my pad, a pop up footer banner displayed and said that unless I changed the cookie settings, I was agreeing to cookies by continuing to use the site. There is also relevant info on the site page.

EU data protection law is complex but heres a relevant comment

The basic rule that applies to direct marketing is that you need the consent of the individual to use their personal data for direct marketing purposes. As a minimum, an individual must be given a right to refuse such use of their personal data both at the time the data is collected (an "opt-out") and, in the case of direct marketing by electronic means, on every subsequent marketing message. The "opt-out" right must be free of charge.

so for example , you could have a global opt-out , but th opt-in would have to be agreed on a driver by driver basis

goz83 · 28-05-2017 5:33pm

BoatMad wrote: »

EU data protection law is complex but heres a relevant comment

so for example , you could have a global opt-out , but th opt-in would have to be agreed on a driver by driver basis

By refusing to continue to use the vehicle, the driver would be opting out. Only people with the password to change the settings could login and choose to select the manual opt-out and continue to use the vehicle. This could also be done with finger print recognition, or a simple keypad password. The point ios that the driver (not necessarily the person with the password) can still opt-out by choosing not to use the vehicle. This is what many websites use.

BoatMad · 28-05-2017 5:37pm

goz83 wrote: »

By refusing to continue to use the vehicle, the driver would be opting out. Only people with the password to change the settings could login and choose to select the manual opt-out and continue to use the vehicle. This could also be done with finger print recognition, or a simple keypad password. The point ios that the driver (not necessarily the person with the password) can still opt-out by choosing not to use the vehicle. This is what many websites use.

Sorry , in EU Data protection law, if you wish to use information about someone, you must specifically seek there consent. That consent cannot be assumed.

you can allow a person to opt-out , where they decide to opt-in, that information can only be used at that point. SO for example , if you are collecting location information , You must offer the person an opt-out every time you seek to collect new data

and opt-out that requires the car to be not used is nonsense

I dont know why you are arguing , When I was speaking to the Nissan product manager about this , he indicated that this was the basis of EU data protection law and Nissan could not change the process to a default " opt-in"

goz83 · 28-05-2017 5:49pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , in EU Data protection law, if you wish to use information about someone, you must specifically seek there consent. That consent cannot be assumed.

you can allow a person to opt-out , where they decide to opt-in, that information can only be used at that point. SO for example , if you are collecting location information , You must offer the person an opt-out every time you seek to collect new data

and opt-out that requires the car to be not used is nonsense

I dont know why you are arguing , When I was speaking to the Nissan product manager about this , he indicated that this was the basis of EU data protection law and Nissan could not change the process to a default " opt-in"

I don't agree with your view on the subject though. I build websites and spend quite a bit of time online. About 90% of websites use cookies and many of them don't require the user to manually click to accept cookies (unless you wan't to get rid of the banner). Once the person continues to use the website, they have agreed to opt-in.

I am putting the same logic to the use of the car. The vehicle owner would be the one who configures the settings and controls the password. The password could be shared with anyone he/she wishes and it could even be disabled and would enable any driver to disable the telemetry.

Product managers are often ex sales people and pretend to know it all, rather than just admitting they're not sure about something. So, I wouldn't hold too much faith in what a product manager said about an EU law.

edited to add: Think about using a GPS, or a phone. Your data can be collected and you are not manually opting into that. You aren't asked to opt in if you borrow someones phone to send a whats app message and a car thief isn't opting in to share his/her location when he/she steals a car with a vehicle tracker and cam installed.

BoatMad · 28-05-2017 6:02pm

goz83 wrote: »

I don't agree with your view on the subject though. I build websites and spend quite a bit of time online. About 90% of websites use cookies and many of them don't require the user to manually click to accept cookies (unless you wan't to get rid of the banner). Once the person continues to use the website, they have agreed to opt-in.

I am putting the same logic to the use of the car. The vehicle owner would be the one who configures the settings and controls the password. The password could be shared with anyone he/she wishes and it could even be disabled and would enable any driver to disable the telemetry.

Product managers are often ex sales people and pretend to know it all, rather than just admitting they're not sure about something. So, I wouldn't hold too much faith in what a product manager said about an EU law.

edited to add: Think about using a GPS, or a phone. Your data can be collected and you are not manually opting into that. You aren't asked to opt in if you borrow someones phone to send a whats app message and a car thief isn't opting in to share his/her location when he/she steals a car with a vehicle tracker and cam installed.

I should point out that cookies in EU law are a subset of data protection.

Think about using a GPS, or a phone. Your data can be collected and you are not manually opting into that

not legally it cant. phone information assent is contained in the contract you signed and is specific to you the contract holder. It should be pointed out that certain aspects of phone communication are exempt from data protection ( security force requests etc )

The situation remains and pertains too any sort of marketing data ( I build web sites too )

if I collect personal data, I cannot use that for other purposes unless you agree.

If I collect additional data , I MUST ask your permission again. I cannot use the previous permission

You can chose to opt-out and there is no need to ask you again , if you opt-in , as I said I can only use the data that was collected at that time for the purposes outlined in the opt-in.

Any new data = another permission request

You aren't asked to opt in if you borrow someones phone to send a whats app message and a car thief isn't opting in to share his/her location when he/she steals a car with a vehicle tracker and cam installed.

classic straw man argument here

goz83 · 28-05-2017 6:25pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I should point out that cookies in EU law are a subset of data protection.

not legally it cant. phone information assent is contained in the contract you signed and is specific to you the contract holder. It should be pointed out that certain aspects of phone communication are exempt from data protection ( security force requests etc )

The situation remains and pertains too any sort of marketing data ( I build web sites too )

if I collect personal data, I cannot use that for other purposes unless you agree.

If I collect additional data , I MUST ask your permission again. I cannot use the previous permission

You can chose to opt-out and there is no need to ask you again , if you opt-in , as I said I can only use the data that was collected at that time for the purposes outlined in the opt-in.

Any new data = another permission request

classic straw man argument here

Don't be giving that straw man rubbish. My points are valid and I don't appreciate them being dismissed as straw man comments. Leave that to some of the water protesters please.

People often use devices of their friends and family and a car too is often used by a number of people.

I still say that a person, once warned, is opting in when they continue to use something. You might see it as nonsense that the opt-out would be to not use the car, but that's just an opinion and you're entitled to it.

BoatMad · 28-05-2017 7:05pm

EU Law is clear

Consent as a legal basis for processing personal data must be free, informed and speci c.
• Consent must have been given unambiguously. Consent may either be given explicitly or implied by acting in a way which leaves no doubt that the data subject agrees to the processing of his or her data.
• Processing sensitive data on the basis of consent requires explicit consent.
• Consent can be withdrawn at any time.

EU law sets out three elements for consent to be valid, which aim to guarantee that data subjects truly meant to agree to the use of their data:
• the data subject must have been under no pressure when consenting;
• the data subject must have been duly informed about the object and conse- quences of consenting; and
• the scope of consent must be reasonably concrete.

To be valid, consent must also be specific. This goes hand in hand with the qual- ity of information given about the object of consent. In this context, the reasonable expectations of an average data subject will be relevant. The data subject must be asked again for consent if processing operations are to be added or changed in a way which could not reasonably have been foreseen when the initial consent was given.

( my underlining )
source : https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwjw8eChk5PUAhUrI8AKHRgCCp8QFghbMAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffra.europa.eu%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffra-2014-handbook-data-protection-law-2nd-ed_en.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFCbgoO-SnRTL7nLS0oMX6yTLww3A&sig2=e_JMYEXkKLQswGfE5ak9ag

The key issue here is " content must be specific ". This requires the driver ( whose information is being collected ,not the owner) must give the consent and they must give that consent anytime additional processing of the data occurs

There is no way you could argue that the owner could lock in consent with the proviso that a driver could not then drive the car if they didnt agree.

(a) Consent or dissent is not freely given , the car is being used to force acceptance ( because it would be regarded as necessary for the driver to drive it)

(B) Consent isnt specific, The owner is not the driver and the information being transferred is about the driver not the owner

(C) The data subject , is clearly the driver , Hence the owner CANNOT take a decision on behalf of the driver

isnottheword · 28-05-2017 7:34pm

goz83 wrote: »

Don't be giving that straw man rubbish..... Leave that to some of the water protesters please.

And you can kindly leave water protesters out of it. It's a cheap shot to take - knowing that you can't be engaged on the subject - given that you're way off topic. There's far more complexity in that saga in it's entirety (and what it revealed about this rogue state) than can be boiled down to 'straw man rubbish'.

punisher5112 · 28-05-2017 8:22pm

I'm out.....

goz83 · 29-05-2017 2:02am

BoatMad wrote: »

The key issue here is " content must be specific ". This requires the driver ( whose information is being collected ,not the owner) must give the consent and they must give that consent anytime additional processing of the data occurs

There is no way you could argue that the owner could lock in consent with the proviso that a driver could not then drive the car if they didnt agree.

(a) Consent or dissent is not freely given , the car is being used to force acceptance ( because it would be regarded as necessary for the driver to drive it)

(B) Consent isnt specific, The owner is not the driver and the information being transferred is about the driver not the owner

(C) The data subject , is clearly the driver , Hence the owner CANNOT take a decision on behalf of the driver

Actually, I am suggesting that The owner controls the access to the menu and can choose to (a) Share the login details with chosen drivers. (b) Disable the password and allow anyone open access to accept/decline data request. (c) Refuse or be unable to give the password to allow the data request to be declined. In the event of C, the driver would be consenting by choosing to use the vehicle. Nobody is forcing the driver to use the car.

The way you describe it....it would be illegal to track a stolen Leaf with the onboard gps if the thief selected decline after starting the car.

Earlier today, I visited a tyre website. I did not click to accept cookies and I did a search for tyres. When I exited the website, I found the same company had ads on the boards.ie pages I am visiting. Its not the first time thats happened.

isnottheword wrote: »

And you can kindly leave water protesters out of it. It's a cheap shot to take - knowing that you can't be engaged on the subject - given that you're way off topic. There's far more complexity in that saga in it's entirety (and what it revealed about this rogue state) than can be boiled down to 'straw man rubbish'.

Look at what I clearly said. I will highlight the relevant word.

goz83 wrote: »

Don't be giving that straw man rubbish. My points are valid and I don't appreciate them being dismissed as straw man comments. Leave that to some of the water protesters please.

I have nothing against the vast majority of the water protesters, but some of them were the freeman type with strawman arguments which diluted the protests imo.

NIMAN · 27-06-2017 11:09am

Anyone know what's the difference in premiums in Ireland between the Tekna v Acenta models?

KCross · 27-06-2017 12:22pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Anyone know what's the difference in premiums in Ireland between the Tekna v Acenta models?

Cant see why there would be any significant difference. Its the same 80kW powered motor in both. The only difference would be the value of the car for comprehensive and the difference there should be minuscule to the insurance premium.

NIMAN · 27-06-2017 12:30pm

Tekna may be more attractive to thieves?

KCross · 27-06-2017 12:34pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Tekna may be more attractive to thieves?

I doubt it. I suppose all you can do is try out the online quotes for both models and see what you get.

reboot · 27-06-2017 12:41pm

I pointed out to my broker, that I was already covered for breakdown cover with the PCP, and he refunded around €30, you couldn't watch , cheeky monkey.

Moreilly · 28-09-2017 11:58am

Lads, just got my renewal quote for the Ioniq, €690 with aviva as opposed to around €380 last year with my ice car, wife has a policy with aviva as well so usual discounts applied ect.., was not expecting this, anybody in the same boat? p.s. what value did you give for the car?

peposhi · 28-09-2017 12:39pm

Moreilly wrote: »

Lads, just got my renewal quote for the Ioniq, €690 with aviva as opposed to around €380 last year with my ice car, wife has a policy with aviva as well so usual discounts applied ect.., was not expecting this, anybody in the same boat? p.s. what value did you give for the car?

We are with Aviva for the last 11 years. 2 cars, house, health insurance policies (the last one did move in April to Irish Life since they took over). For the last 6 years I have at least one huge argument with them over the phone and every time they did decrease the premium.
Do not let them get away with it. This year I was to get an increase of roughly €150 between the two cars, ended up paying a total of €70 less my previous year’s.

peposhi · 28-09-2017 12:41pm

Not to mention that we got €40 refund on switching to an EV back in March 2015

n97 mini · 28-09-2017 1:23pm

Shop around. I do every year. Leaf insurance dropped from 40 euro this year.

unkel · 28-09-2017 1:26pm

peposhi wrote: »

Not to mention that we got €40 refund on switching to an EV back in March 2015

+1

We went from a worthless banger to a brand new Ioniq and the insurance dropped by over €100 for the remaining 10 months or so

Moreilly wrote: »

p.s. what value did you give for the car?

Not really that relevant. In case the car is a write-off, most policies will get you a brand new replacement car. In the first year anyway.

oinkely · 28-09-2017 3:25pm

Zurich were the cheapest for me an my wife's leafs at around €400 each.

Stokolan · 28-09-2017 8:46pm

Rather then go with the renewal on aviva. Go to their website and get a new quote on the same vehicle. I did it with the Wives policy and it came down by €100

30-09-2017 6:53am

Mine went down from 700 to 500 with Allianz.

pwurple · 30-09-2017 7:22am

Nothing to do with EV there. i have been driving EV three years... the quote doubled this year with zurich for some unknown reason to around 700. Aviva quoted me over 1000. Madness.

I switched to itsforwomen.ie , back down to my 380.

EV insurance prices

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