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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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  • Options
    #242
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    DataDude wrote: »
    I would heed this advice. I may be misinterpreting, but I have taken from your comments that you do not necessarily have a vast pension fund of which this one apartment would form a small part of it.

    If that is the case, and this assumed rental income is going to be a key factor in your ability to retire comfortably, I would run a mile. You won't have enough diversification and the risk of a rogue tenant is too much for you to carry. You would be far better advised investing in an Irish REIT to be more diversified...if this property is going to be one of many income streams and two years of rental arrears plus significant legal costs/repair bills etc. does not worry you - then you could consider it.

    the REIT,s are a good idea for income seekers but they dont track the market so you wont see anything like the same capital appreciation , if that is not a priority , they are a great idea , the two main ones here which cover residential and commercial are paying 4% right now between them on average


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    #243
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Just noticed there are 12,002 properties on myhome, I believe it was on 11 thousand something a while back. Does anyone know if there is a myhome Ireland properties for sale graph? Interested to know the trend....


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    #244
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    we are a very open economy and a key part of our investment sales pitch is friendly policies towards capital, this is the other side of that double edged sword

    difficult to resolve indeed , rather than disallow big money from buying property , might it be possible to tax their income higher ? , yields are so high that i doubt they all make for the exit ?

    the only tax i hear thats 'workable' is a land value tax, but i have little or no knowledge of it, if anyone else knows? we clearly do need fdi, but its becoming highly toxic, or types of capital is


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    #245
    Villa05
    Registered Users Posts: 4,491 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Marius34 wrote:
    I would be surprised if there are anti market posters..

    Fair point, there's so much interference its hard to describe what our market is

    I suppose to your 2nd point if there was no interference then everyone would be more likely to find a place within there budget
    Price would fall significantly though


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    #246
    Villa05
    Registered Users Posts: 4,491 ✭✭✭Villa05


    It's simple enough,
    Tax free status only applies to new projects they wholly fund.

    Tax free status surrendered on sale (benefits the long term pension funds over the quick buck short term funds)

    Where they are funding housing estates set aside a percentage for private individual buyers.

    Switch from long term leasing to max 5 years so that the state has tme to build there own


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    #247
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,358 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Villa05 wrote: »
    It's simple enough,
    Tax free status only applies to new projects they wholly fund.

    Tax free status surrendered on sale (benefits the long term pension funds over the quick buck short term funds)

    Where they are funding housing estates set aside a percentage for private individual buyers.

    Switch from long term leasing to max 5 years so that the state has tme to build there own

    I agree that the state should be making significant capital investments in housing, but I do not believe for a second that the state would be capable of delivering this in 5 years.

    In 5 years time it'd still be sitting on the desk of some civil servant who needs to review something or other.


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    #248
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Browney7


    mcsean2163 wrote: »
    Just noticed there are 12,002 properties on myhome, I believe it was on 11 thousand something a while back. Does anyone know if there is a myhome Ireland properties for sale graph? Interested to know the trend....

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=116968846

    Current DAFT number is 15,804 ads which has had a small increase since 4 weeks previous


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    #249
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,670 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    i saw an interesting proposal on askabout money, basically extend the rent a room relied to landlords, you can rent out a property for 12k per annum without paying tax and if it goes over 12k then you pay tax on the lot.

    maybe 12k isnt the right number but it would bring rents down youd imagine.

    less tax revenue for the exchequer though.


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    #250
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭yagan


    awec wrote: »
    In 5 years time it'd still be sitting on the desk of some civil servant who needs to review something or other.
    That the kind of excuse politicans trot out when they've got conflicting interests that mean they simply won't do what they say they would.

    Fianna Fail are outbidding FTBs solely to try to reverse their vote decline, which last year was their second worst result in their history. Obviously it's backfiring on them now.


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    #251
    Pussyhands
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i saw an interesting proposal on askabout money, basically extend the rent a room relied to landlords, you can rent out a property for 12k per annum without paying tax and if it goes over 12k then you pay tax on the lot.

    maybe 12k isnt the right number but it would bring rents down youd imagine.

    less tax revenue for the exchequer though.

    Would just mean landlords collect portion in cash instead and get away with paying no tax.


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    #252
    timmyntc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i saw an interesting proposal on askabout money, basically extend the rent a room relied to landlords, you can rent out a property for 12k per annum without paying tax and if it goes over 12k then you pay tax on the lot.

    maybe 12k isnt the right number but it would bring rents down youd imagine.

    less tax revenue for the exchequer though.

    Expect properties to be split into tons of 1 bed "apartments" with communal kitchens & bathrooms were something like that to be done.


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    #253
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,358 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    yagan wrote: »
    That the kind of excuse politicans trot out when they've got conflicting interests that mean they simply won't do what they say they would.

    Fianna Fail are outbidding FTBs solely to try to reverse their vote decline, which last year was their second worst result in their history. Obviously it's backfiring on them now.

    I doubt there is any politician out there who would ever say that the civil service is slow. :)


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    #254
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i saw an interesting proposal on askabout money, basically extend the rent a room relied to landlords, you can rent out a property for 12k per annum without paying tax and if it goes over 12k then you pay tax on the lot.

    maybe 12k isnt the right number but it would bring rents down youd imagine.

    less tax revenue for the exchequer though.


    Not a bad idea.
    But as you say revenue would not be happy.
    Also, the tax take could never increase as landlords would not increase above the limit.
    So in the end middle income Ireland would be paying again.
    Only so much blood in that stone.


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    #255
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John1648 wrote: »
    Well, I have looked at many markets. Dublin offers the highest yield for rentals, of 7% net (9% gross), which is unheard of everywhere else.

    Oh, the same is in Maldives e.g., in Male, but is too far away to manage.

    No point invest to property for rent when property prices are on top


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    #256
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Revolution 1917 wrote: »
    No point invest to property for rent when property prices are on top


    they are still raising tho, there is no sign of house prices slowing down and with upcoming inflation anyone who has saved up during the last few years would be better off investing now than later


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    #257
    John1648
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭John1648


    mcsean2163 wrote: »
    Six years ago we rented a three bed in Dublin 8 for €1,300 to our neighbors. The rent is over double that now. If you can get a 20 years deal with the council and the council doesn't go bust you'll probably be fine...

    Excellent point!
    Also, the council will not stop paying the rent, unlike individual tenants.


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    #258
    John1648
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭John1648


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    That yield only applies if the tenant feels like paying the rent.
    Paying rent is optional in Ireland.
    When you contact whatever company is going to manage this property for you, since you are abroad, ask them will they pay the rent if the tenant they supply decides not to pay it.
    Their answer will tell you everything you need to know.

    What if the Council will pay the rent, as somebody above suggested?


  • Options
    #259
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    John1648 wrote: »
    Excellent point!
    Also, the council will not stop paying the rent, unlike individual tenants.

    Yes, that's it,risk free if you can rent to the council. It's basically a very high yielding government bond and the reason the funds are buying Ireland.


  • Options
    #260
    John1648
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭John1648


    DataDude wrote: »
    I would heed this advice. I may be misinterpreting, but I have taken from your comments that you do not necessarily have a vast pension fund of which this one apartment would form a small part of it.

    If that is the case, and this assumed rental income is going to be a key factor in your ability to retire comfortably, I would run a mile. You won't have enough diversification and the risk of a rogue tenant is too much for you to carry. You would be far better advised investing in an Irish REIT to be more diversified...if this property is going to be one of many income streams and two years of rental arrears plus significant legal costs/repair bills etc. does not worry you - then you could consider it.

    Thank you! Appreciate the advice!

    What is the Council would be renting it from me?

    I will have a second stream, a small pension. But of course would be hard to stomach such arrears ...

    Is it easy to invest in an REIT? How does it actually work?


  • Options
    #261
    John1648
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭John1648


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    No point invest to property for rent when property prices are on top

    I have actually first looked at the matter 5 years ago, when I could have bought the same apartments for 80 000. Now they are 180 000.

    Back then I was laughed at, being told that NEVER will the prices recover, nor the rents go up again. So that is then a total loss of 160 000 EUR, i.e. 100 000 price difference and 60 000 in lost rent.

    Can a small investor allow to lose 160 000 ??!

    Lots of regrets in fact ...

    But what if prices indeed tumble in one year again like in 2013?


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    #262
    John1648
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭John1648


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    No point invest to property for rent when property prices are on top

    They were actually higher at some point in time.

    Others tell me to wait yet another year, as a recession is coming, and prices will go down.

    Same was the advice when covid started. Now price went up by 20 000, plus the net lost rent income was approx 12 000.

    Can a small saver afford to lose 32 000???

    That is the question!

    And I have made such a loss in 1 year ...


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    #263
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,670 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    John1648 wrote: »
    I have actually first looked at the matter 5 years ago, when I could have bought the same apartments for 80 000. Now they are 180 000.

    Back then I was laughed at, being told that NEVER will the prices recover, nor the rents go up again. So that is then a total loss of 160 000 EUR, i.e. 100 000 price difference and 60 000 in lost rent.

    Can a small investor allow to lose 160 000 ??!

    Lots of regrets in fact ...

    But what if prices indeed tumble in one year again like in 2013?

    You can't lose what you didn't have.


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    #264
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭yagan


    John1648 wrote: »

    And I have made such a loss in 1 year ...
    But if you bought and then the market plunges your loss is now baked in. There's people still in negative equity 12 years after the Bertie Bubble burst, one recent contributor on this thread said they were still worth 30% less than the purchase price.

    Even though Dublin prices got a 3% bump in the last year it was on 13% fewer transactions than the previous year, a similar dynamic to 2006/07.

    This last year has been a huge distortion and it's going to take a couple of quarters of unrestricted viewings to get a clear idea of the current dynamic.


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    #265
    Marius34
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    yagan wrote: »
    But if you bought and then the market plunges your loss is now baked in. There's people still in negative equity 12 years after the Bertie Bubble burst, one recent contributor on this thread said they were still worth 30% less than the purchase price.

    Even though Dublin prices got a 3% bump in the last year it was on 13% fewer transactions than the previous year, a similar dynamic to 2006/07.

    This last year has been a huge distortion and it's going to take a couple of quarters of unrestricted viewings to get a clear idea of the current dynamic.

    No relation here to previous crisis


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    #266
    tobsey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    Revolution 1917 wrote: »
    No point invest to property for rent when property prices are on top

    Given an investment fund recently bought an entire estate, I would doubt prices are going to fall any time soon. I'd trust their judgement on the value of the asset more than the average commentator here.


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    #267
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    John1648 wrote: »
    What if the Council will pay the rent, as somebody above suggested?


    Long term renting to the council requires a little homework on your part

    - Does the county have demand for social housing in the area? I made a few calls to Co Dublin and Co Meat while looking for a investment property recently and i was surprised at how the council may not necessarily be interested in a rental property that would otherwise meet open market demands very easily

    - Does the estate management have restrictions with regards to long term to the counsil? Once again, surprisingly a lot of estates have strict regulations against it and while they can't discriminate against HAP they apparently can prevent LLs from renting to the council


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    #268
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    they are still raising tho, there is no sign of house prices slowing down and with upcoming inflation anyone who has saved up during the last few years would be better off investing now than later

    2 different shoes companies sent them representatives to investigate investment facilities to one country
    The one company representative sent email to his boss
    Boss we have huge opportunities for investment in this country ! People does not have shoes here !
    The another company representative sent letter to his boss
    Boss I see many losses for our investment because people does not wear shoes here

    Look the most popular songs in media now that prices will rising the inflation will heavy
    From my life experience I learned read this opposite I could explain you the system but you still will believe media
    So is no point for wasting our time doing this


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    #269
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    yagan wrote: »
    But if you bought and then the market plunges your loss is now baked in. There's people still in negative equity 12 years after the Bertie Bubble burst, one recent contributor on this thread said they were still worth 30% less than the purchase price.

    Even though Dublin prices got a 3% bump in the last year it was on 13% fewer transactions than the previous year, a similar dynamic to 2006/07.

    This last year has been a huge distortion and it's going to take a couple of quarters of unrestricted viewings to get a clear idea of the current dynamic.


    My advise would be not to buy if you are looking to invest in a rental property with money borrowed from the bank.
    If you however have the cash, this is not the time to wait because inflation will kick in, no matter what they say


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    #270
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Revolution 1917 wrote: »
    2 different shoes companies sent them representatives to investigate investment facilities to one country
    The one company representative sent email to his boss
    Boss we have huge opportunities for investment in this country ! People does not have shoes here !
    The another company representative sent letter to his boss
    Boss I see many losses for our investment because people does not wear shoes here

    Look the most popular songs in media now that prices will rising the inflation will heavy
    From my life experience I learned read this opposite I could explain you the system but you still will believe media
    So is no point for wasting our time doing this


    Actually, everybody is saying that inflation will not happen. I however dont believe that for a second


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    #271
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭yagan


    Marius34 wrote: »
    No relation here to previous crisis
    This time it's different! (age old adage about bubbles).


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