Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Forum Closed  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
15-10-2013, 12:39   #1
Morag
Registered User
 
Morag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,961
Can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?

This came up in a discussion I was having with friends about racist costumes
and and cultural appropriation at this time of year.
This question was asked " can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?"
so I was curious to what people here think.
Morag is offline  
Advertisement
15-10-2013, 19:49   #2
Umekichi
Registered User
 
Umekichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 413
Um... The whole costume and trick or treat aspect of Halloween is American iirc
Personally, I don't give a hoot about who celebrates what and honestly hate the term "cultural appropriation", however I can agree somewhat with those who denounce it.

As for "racist costumes" I don't think I have ever seen one... any links?
Umekichi is offline  
Thanks from:
16-10-2013, 00:46   #3
CuAnnan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
Um... The whole costume and trick or treat aspect of Halloween is American iirc
Nope. Ireland and England were doing it in Shakespearean times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
Personally, I don't give a hoot about who celebrates what and honestly hate the term "cultural appropriation", however I can agree somewhat with those who denounce it.
Personally, I hate people who culturally misappropriate.
But that just shows that there is no consensus about ethical behaviour in pagan communities, owing to our diverse backgrounds and cultural contexts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
As for "racist costumes" I don't think I have ever seen one... any links?
Here ya go.
CuAnnan is offline  
Thanks from:
16-10-2013, 00:50   #4
CuAnnan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morag View Post
This question was asked " can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?"
so I was curious to what people here think.
Yes.
Halloween is not Samhain. It does not share its roots with Samhain. All Saint's Day was moved from May to October in the 4th or 5th Century.

As to whether they can celebrate Samhain, that's a different question. But sure. If it floats their boats, they can celebrate Samhain. If, however, they're just tacking "Samhain" onto whatever completely non-Samhain things they have going on at the end of october, that I'd be inclined to call misappropriation.
CuAnnan is offline  
(4) thanks from:
16-10-2013, 09:11   #5
Umekichi
Registered User
 
Umekichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuAnnan View Post
Nope. Ireland and England were doing it in Shakespearean times.


Personally, I hate people who culturally misappropriate.
But that just shows that there is no consensus about ethical behaviour in pagan communities, owing to our diverse backgrounds and cultural contexts.


Here ya go.
Oh I was always led to believe it was an American tradition.

I actually agree with you on the misappropriation, "plastic shamans" do my head in and some eclectic Wiccans too with their "magpie spirituality". Have you ever heard of "Witta" by Edain McCoy? I would recommend reading it just for the lulz, the amount of misappropriation and wrongness in that book is RIDICULOUS! Apparently we had a potato goddess...
I think a lot of cultural misappropriation is down to ignorance, pure blind ignorance which in today's society is unacceptable.

However using a technique from another tradition is ok, either by using it in the correct context or by using it as a jumping off point in creating a technique. For example I use Mindfulness meditation to quiet my mind whenever I wish to do well... alot of stuff, however I'm not Buddhist but I am knowlegable about Buddhism so no issue of disrespect there.

The issue with the costumes... I'm not Native American so I can't comment but I could see how they would be racist. However I don't think the people who wear them are racist, a bit ignorant maybe, but not racist. I mean if you went up to them and asked them to wear blackface they would say "no it's a racist costume", so I don't think they realise the racism. I think the Native American community needs to do a bit more in publicising how racist these costumes are and eventually it will stop.

For costume events, I usually wear proper Kimono(and correctly as well) and it sickens me the amount of times I see a "Geisha", who looks like a hooker in a Penneys satin chinese robe thing(you know what I mean"), with face covered in talc. It frustrates me, because it is very disrespectful to both Japanese people and actual Geisha who are very beautiful and elegant. If you are going to dress up as something "different", do it right or don't do it at all!
Umekichi is offline  
Thanks from:
Advertisement
16-10-2013, 17:18   #6
CuAnnan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
Have you ever heard of "Witta" by Edain McCoy?
Yes, I have

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
Apparently we had a potato goddess...
And potatoes were used in fertility rituals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
However using a technique from another tradition is ok
Not neccessarily.
There are techniques and traditions that cannot be used by outsiders without misappropriating them. Kabbalah, for example, is not for goyim at all and any use thereof is automatically misappropriation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
However I don't think the people who wear them are racist, a bit ignorant maybe, but not racist.
We'll have to disagree on that.
Pastiching a culture you don't belong to is inherently racist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
I mean if you went up to them and asked them to wear blackface they would say "no it's a racist costume", so I don't think they realise the racism.
One can be a racist without knowing it. Endemic systematic racism doesn't require the consent or knowledge of the participants.
CuAnnan is offline  
Thanks from:
16-10-2013, 17:34   #7
Morag
Registered User
 
Morag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,961
Well would it be cultural appropriation to celebrate day of the dead if you were not Hispanic or had any connection to that culture?
Morag is offline  
16-10-2013, 17:53   #8
Jenneke87
Registered User
 
Jenneke87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuAnnan View Post
Yes.
Halloween is not Samhain. It does not share its roots with Samhain. All Saint's Day was moved from May to October in the 4th or 5th Century.

As to whether they can celebrate Samhain, that's a different question. But sure. If it floats their boats, they can celebrate Samhain. If, however, they're just tacking "Samhain" onto whatever completely non-Samhain things they have going on at the end of october, that I'd be inclined to call misappropriation.
Hi CuAnnan,

Can you tell me when you found that information about All Saint's day and it being moved from May to October? Thank you.
Jenneke87 is online now  
16-10-2013, 18:01   #9
CuAnnan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenneke87 View Post
Hi CuAnnan,

Can you tell me when you found that information about All Saint's day and it being moved from May to October? Thank you.
Wikipedia cites C. Smith The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967: s.v. "Feast of All Saints", p. 318.

But there's also
http://www.catholic.org/saints/allsaints/
CuAnnan is offline  
Advertisement
16-10-2013, 18:02   #10
CuAnnan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morag View Post
Well would it be cultural appropriation to celebrate day of the dead if you were not Hispanic or had any connection to that culture?
I don't know enough about either Hispanic culture or the festival that is the Day of the Dead to comment.
CuAnnan is offline  
17-10-2013, 07:26   #11
Umekichi
Registered User
 
Umekichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuAnnan View Post
Yes, I have


And potatoes were used in fertility rituals.


Not neccessarily.
There are techniques and traditions that cannot be used by outsiders without misappropriating them. Kabbalah, for example, is not for goyim at all and any use thereof is automatically misappropriation.


We'll have to disagree on that.
Pastiching a culture you don't belong to is inherently racist.


One can be a racist without knowing it. Endemic systematic racism doesn't require the consent or knowledge of the participants.
I agree with you about the techniques(which if my post was quoted fully I actually mentioned in a roundabout way - I apologise I was tired), I have spiritual magpies as friends(Lovely people, I just don't agree with their way of doing things) and it frustrates me when they go on and on and on about doing Kabbalah, I'm like, "are you Jews? as last time I checked it was for Jews only" and please don't get me started about the litany of "Part Native American Shamans"

I'm just curious, What about Wiccan Holidays? Wouldn't they be considered Cultural Appropriation?
Umekichi is offline  
17-10-2013, 07:36   #12
o1s1n
Registered User
 
o1s1n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 29,724
Isnt the term 'cultural appropriation' rife with racist undertones though?

Seems very 'dem foreigners stealing our culture/holidays!'

Cultures are build to the amalgamation and cross pollenation of beliefs, myths, legends and celebrations.

You cannot stop (and certainly shouldnt look down from your ivory tower) on those who wish to celebrate holidays/feasts/whatever.
o1s1n is offline  
(3) thanks from:
17-10-2013, 16:57   #13
CuAnnan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umekichi View Post
I'm just curious, What about Wiccan Holidays? Wouldn't they be considered Cultural Appropriation?
It would be my contention that, for the most part, they are.
CuAnnan is offline  
10-11-2013, 03:14   #14
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morag View Post
This came up in a discussion I was having with friends about racist costumes
and and cultural appropriation at this time of year.
This question was asked " can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?"
so I was curious to what people here think.
People can manifest motivation from any ideas to do whatever they want.

Americans can practice Halloween rituals because it is nostalgic to them as they grew up doing it. Americans grew up trick or treating and it was a part of their childhood legitimately. The generation of children doing it now received that from their parents. It is in the storylines of films /stories etc.

It is now very much apart of their culture.

Santa is a manufactured coke cola icon.

We 'appropriate' a lot of American culture why is it never racist when people do it to American culture?

I also don't think Irish people are a race. Also the Irish brought it to the states as immigrants and started passing it on to the kids etc. So it spread organically much as it did here.

The Irish immigrants passed it on to their kids just as people here passed it on to theirs. So I think they have a right to it. It just became very commercialized in the US. And obviously here it does have much more cultural traditions etc.

But seriously it seems crazy to deny people the right to party
Lou.m is offline  
Thanks from:
10-11-2013, 11:44   #15
Tabnabs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 13,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou.m View Post


Santa is a manufactured coke cola icon.
Santa has roots in many cultures, traditions and periods, including the Saami shaman (flying reindeer and all that).
Tabnabs is offline  
(2) thanks from:
Forum Closed

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet