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05-08-2015, 12:15   #31
kieranwaldron
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One of the main teachings of the Catholic Church, that man has an immortal soul, is based on pagan beliefs. The CC then built the doctrines of heaven, hell and purgatory on this false premise. There is nothing in the whole of the Bible to substantiate the belief that the soul lives on after death; the Bible indicates that man goes nowhere when he dies except to the grave.
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05-08-2015, 22:28   #32
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......There is nothing in the whole of the Bible to substantiate the belief that the soul lives on after death; the Bible indicates that man goes nowhere when he dies except to the grave.
What about St Paul e.g.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-14.htm
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06-08-2015, 10:27   #33
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I don't see why Joe1919 referred me to St Paul who is the author of Corinthians. In now way does the latter contradict my assertion a person goes nowhere when they die. The Bible however does talk about a resurrection of the dead at a future date when Christ returns to the earth followed by a judgement in which a person is either given everlasting life or destroyed permanently.
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06-08-2015, 22:48   #34
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I don't see why Joe1919 referred me to St Paul who is the author of Corinthians. In now way does the latter contradict my assertion a person goes nowhere when they die. The Bible however does talk about a resurrection of the dead at a future date when Christ returns to the earth followed by a judgement in which a person is either given everlasting life or destroyed permanently.
I see what your saying i.e. The bible talks of resurrection. It is often argued that Christianity was influenced by the Greeks/ Plato transmigration of souls idea (Neoplatonism) . The Romans also used the idea that people could achieve immortality by brave and heroic acts and this was used to give an incentive to the army, (according to Cicero).
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06-08-2015, 23:03   #35
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have a look on youtube for 'zeitgeist the movie'. its a long video, but it has a long of interesting views on where the roots of Christianity can be found, particularly in what we would now class as 'pagan religions'. I'm not sure how much of it is fact, but it does get you thinking.
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07-08-2015, 10:40   #36
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I see what your saying i.e. The bible talks of resurrection. It is often argued that Christianity was influenced by the Greeks/ Plato transmigration of souls idea (Neoplatonism) . The Romans also used the idea that people could achieve immortality by brave and heroic acts and this was used to give an incentive to the army, (according to Cicero).
The ancient Egyptians and Greeks believed the soul was immortal. The Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato also believed the soul lived on after death. Plato publicised this belief in his various writings which had a big influence on the then civilised world circa 400 BC, and those who followed afterwards.
One of the main founding influences in the Catholic Church, around 200 AD, was Tertullian who was a prolific author. Tertullian asserted the belief that the soul was immortal in his writings and even gave credit for the idea to Plato. The writings of Tertullian formed the basis of what the Catholic Church taught about the soul in the following centuries.
It therefore can be seen from the above that pagan ideas got incorrectly taught by the dominant Christian church at the expense of what God said in the Bible !
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10-08-2015, 08:13   #37
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have a look on youtube for 'zeitgeist the movie'. its a long video, but it has a long of interesting views on where the roots of Christianity can be found, particularly in what we would now class as 'pagan religions'. I'm not sure how much of it is fact, but it does get you thinking.
Over the weekend, I did have a look at the video referred to by you for an hour or so. The gist of what was said in it appears to be that everyone has lied to you including governments and church leaders. In the case of the Catholic Church, is isn't so much a case of lying to the public as teaching falsehoods which they themselves believe to be true. In the Catholic Church, you cannot legitimately challenge any of their teachings without running the risk of excommunication as happened to Martin Luther approximately 500 years ago.
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10-08-2015, 08:26   #38
 
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I don't see why Joe1919 referred me to St Paul who is the author of Corinthians. In now way does the latter contradict my assertion a person goes nowhere when they die. The Bible however does talk about a resurrection of the dead at a future date when Christ returns to the earth followed by a judgement in which a person is either given everlasting life or destroyed permanently.
Actually many Christian theologians don't necessarily believe you go anywhere when you die but wait for the resurrection. That's called soul sleep.

Christian theology is influenced by Judaism and the beliefs of Greek philosophy. Folk Christianity especially Catholicism is syncretic with different local pagan superstitions, with local gods becoming saints ( Brigid for example) but that's often rejected by Protestants. As was Christmas. So the "pagan" influences are not essential and rejected by the Protestant reformation.
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10-08-2015, 08:27   #39
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I wouldn't pay too much attention to Zeitgeist, the movie. I have only reviewed some of the claims it made about Christianity but they are, basically, b*alls on a stick. Before we rush to agree with its thesis that "everyone has lied to you including governments and church leaders" we should consider the possibility that, maybe, the producers of Zeitgeist are lying to us.

On the wider point, Christianity did get its ideas of an afterlife from the Greeks - sort of. Via Judaism.

Judaism, and in particular the Hebrew scriptures, doesn't have a great deal to say about the afterlife. It seems to have been a relatively late arrival in the Jewish worldview, but it was certainly there before the time of Christ. During Christ's own time, it was a matter of debate among different Jewish movements - basically the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, the Pharisees did. In adopting their views about the afterlife, and in particular their views about the nature of the afterlife, yes, the Jews were influenced by the Greek philosophy and culture with which they had come into extensive contact. And that influence of course continued during the period when Christianity emerged as a distinct movement, and separated itself from Judaism.
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10-08-2015, 08:32   #40
 
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The ancient Egyptians and Greeks believed the soul was immortal. The Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato also believed the soul lived on after death. Plato publicised this belief in his various writings which had a big influence on the then civilised world circa 400 BC, and those who followed afterwards.
One of the main founding influences in the Catholic Church, around 200 AD, was Tertullian who was a prolific author. Tertullian asserted the belief that the soul was immortal in his writings and even gave credit for the idea to Plato. The writings of Tertullian formed the basis of what the Catholic Church taught about the soul in the following centuries.
It therefore can be seen from the above that pagan ideas got incorrectly taught by the dominant Christian church at the expense of what God said in the Bible !
I don't know if you are a Christian or not ( I am not). Jesus clearly references his fathers house in the NT, and tells the penitent thief that he will be in paradise with him on that day. Catholic theologians were looking for Greek philosophy to justify ideas they already had ( same with Augustine and Acquinas).
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10-08-2015, 19:33   #41
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I don't know if you are a Christian or not ( I am not). Jesus clearly references his fathers house in the NT, and tells the penitent thief that he will be in paradise with him on that day. Catholic theologians were looking for Greek philosophy to justify ideas they already had ( same with Augustine and Acquinas).
I went to primary and secondary schools run by the Catholic Church. However, from a young age I had doubts about teachings such as hell as a place of punishment for the wicked, and purgatory. In recent years, since I started to consult the Bible, I have rejected such teachings as valid as the Bible confirms man does not have an immortal soul on which such teachings are founded. Therefore at present I am a Christian who doesn't belong to any particular church.
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10-08-2015, 19:48   #42
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Judaism, and in particular the Hebrew scriptures, doesn't have a great deal to say about the afterlife. It seems to have been a relatively late arrival in the Jewish worldview, but it was certainly there before the time of Christ. During Christ's own time, it was a matter of debate among different Jewish movements - basically the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, the Pharisees did. In adopting their views about the afterlife, and in particular their views about the nature of the afterlife, yes, the Jews were influenced by the Greek philosophy and culture with which they had come into extensive contact. And that influence of course continued during the period when Christianity emerged as a distinct movement, and separated itself from Judaism.[/QUOTE]
The Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato had a big influence on mankind circa 400 BC and in the following centuries about the immortality of the soul. The statements made in the Bible on the subject got corrupted and then adapted by the main Christian church of the day, the Catholic Church, and taught incorrectly as if the source was the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that man is mortal !
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10-08-2015, 21:10   #43
 
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I went to primary and secondary schools run by the Catholic Church. However, from a young age I had doubts about teachings such as hell as a place of punishment for the wicked, and purgatory. In recent years, since I started to consult the Bible, I have rejected such teachings as valid as the Bible confirms man does not have an immortal soul on which such teachings are founded. Therefore at present I am a Christian who doesn't belong to any particular church.
You're a Christian who doesn't believe in an immortal soul? Seems pointless.
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12-08-2015, 06:58   #44
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You're a Christian who doesn't believe in an immortal soul? Seems pointless.
Main-stream Christian churches have incorrectly taught that the sole is immortal. Other Christian churches such as the Jehovas Witnesses and Christadelphians teach man is wholly mortal. I believe that when Jesus Christ returns to the earth, as is predicted in the Bible, there will be a resurrection of the dead followed by a judgement, and based on it a person will then either be given everlasting life (immortality) or destroyed permanently.
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12-08-2015, 20:07   #45
joseph dawton
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pre-christian origins

Constantine was responsible for the modern form of Christianity, before the 4th century there were several streams, all independent.

The Romans incorporated bits of Mithra, Hermeticism (see corpus hermetica), celtic paganism, roman paganism and of course the Christian cult itself that had evolved out of radical Judaism (propably essenes).

What the CC did was eliminate gnosticism and any 'heretic' forms of christianity to create it's 'one and only' reinvented brand controlled from Rome. They thought they had destroyed or captured almost all of the Gnostic and Jewish texts that relate to the early church, but the dead sea scrolls and nag hamadi gospels survived to demonstrate that some of the ideas in christianity pre-date Jesus. The idea of the trinity was probably stolen from the druids of gaul or britain. Certainly Mary was elevated to divine status to attract followers of Isis, Ishtar, Brigid etc - without a female character to worship the CC was missing out on potential followers and income of course!

The ideas about the afterlife and judgment are lifted straight out of Egyptian religion, also the ideas about the soul relate to helenic and celtic belief in the immortal soul, although CC rejected any idea of reincarnation.

Modern christianity is a mixed bag, we'll probably never understand exactly what Jesus' pure teachings were - probably the closest we'd get is the officially discredited gospel of Thomas.

Anyway, we can thank the CC for preserving our festivals (albeit wrong dates) and some pagan practices such as candle lighting, holy water, altars, visiting holy wells, baptism etc - what they could not destroy they assimilated instead )

Last edited by joseph dawton; 12-08-2015 at 20:10. Reason: extra info inserted
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