The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2019 11:40pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not trying in any way to justify the terrible killings-what I'm saying is British people see this as double standards in regards to pursuing offenders-if British soldiers are being prosecuted so should the IRA-after all weren't they also soldiers?

It's a pity the British public didn't see that only 4 soldiers charged and found guilty of murder during the entire conflict was also a double standard not to mention that they were released after 3 to 4 years and allowed to return to their regiments. Morally upstanding or morally better than anyone else? My ass they are. The British haven't a leg to stand on lecturing anyone else.

RobMc59 · 20-07-2019 11:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not trying in any way to justify the terrible killings-what I'm saying is British people see this as double standards in regards to pursuing offenders-if British soldiers are being prosecuted so should the IRA-after all weren't they also soldiers?

But the IRA were prosecuted - and still are being/will be prosecuted, in some cases.

So, the double standard is in NOT prosecuting British soldiers.

Some IRA members were given letters of freedom. So were some Loyalist terrorists.

Whether you agree with those letters of freedom, or not, is irrelevant.

The tit for tat releases are done. The playing field is levelled, in that sense.

So, to say IRA members weren't prosecuted, therefore British soldiers shouldn't be prosecuted is
A: Upsetting the "balance" (for want of a better word) of the GFA negotiations, and
B: Equating British soldiers with Loyalist terrorists....

I'm not saying British soldiers shouldn't be prosecuted,what I'm saying is for justice to be seen as fair and balanced then ira soldiers should be subject to the same rules and not get off with ridiculous sentences(18 months?that's a joke!)

RobMc59 · 20-07-2019 11:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not trying in any way to justify the terrible killings-what I'm saying is British people see this as double standards in regards to pursuing offenders-if British soldiers are being prosecuted so should the IRA-after all weren't they also soldiers?

It's a pity the British public didn't see that only 4 soldiers charged and found guilty of murder during the entire conflict was also a double standard not to mention that they were released after 3 to 4 years and allowed to return to their regiments. Morally upstanding or morally better than anyone else? My ass they are. The British haven't a leg to stand on lecturing anyone else.

Francie, all I'm saying is the law should apply to all,not just the BA.

Imreoir2 · 21-07-2019 12:01am

I think I am comming round to Downcows point of view, strangely enough. Constantly rakeing over the coals on both sides is not doing anyone any good.

However it is entirely another thing to publicly support soldier F and put up banners of support. That kind of activity can only be intended to outrage and provoke.

_blaaz · 21-07-2019 12:04am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not saying British soldiers shouldn't be prosecuted,what I'm saying is for justice to be seen as fair and balanced then ira soldiers should be subject to the same rules and not get off with ridiculous sentences(18 months?that's a joke!)

Your essemtially proposing tearing up the gfa....its only pre 1974 offences arent covered by limited jail terms

But yes if someone was sentenced to say 70 years for killing aiden mcenespie (even more clearcut case than soldier f,imo)that soldier will only serve 18 to 24 months......theres no big conspiracy/plot to mistreat soldiers.....the law equally applies

Your either unaware of the facts or delibertely misrepresenting the situation

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2019 12:04am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not saying British soldiers shouldn't be prosecuted,

As a British person you have already stood over 4 convicted killers getting released after 3 to 4 years and allowed to return to their regiments Rob.
Hypocrisy? Yep, it sure is.
156 people killed by the BA (that we know of) where civilians.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 21-07-2019 12:18am

Don’t see what the fuss is. NUIG Sinn Fein chairperson says you can’t be racist to a “whites” person. So these marches aren’t discriminatory nor have Irish catholic’s anything to complain about in history.

https://twitter.com/roisinnicloch/status/1151988879349600257?s=21

Sunny Disposition · 21-07-2019 12:25am

downcow wrote: »

You can spin and twist all you like. I have stated categorically several times that BS was wrong and I have not qualified it in any way by rehearsing the behaviour of the crowd etc.
It was plain wrong.
But you can accuse me of what ever you like I will remain consistent.
I said earlier that I was prob out of step with my community by believing there should be no further enquiries or prosecutions related to the troubles.
If they were going to prosecute the guards that set up ruc officers I would be of exactly the same opinion. Would you accuse me then of supporting the murder of innocent protestants.

I have no doubt you fully understand the integrity and consistency of my argument. And you don’t like it because you want to be inconsistent and go after this soldier but eg not the stuff Gerry Kelly has got up to.

So carry on with your ‘shock and awe’ that I don’t want one individual singled out for something that hundreds were involved in 50 years ago.

Tbh it would be disgraceful and totally unacceptable if there was evidence that identified the members of the Gardaí who set up those RUC men, and a decision was taken to ignore it. Have no problem with Gerry Kelly being taken on either.

The Bloody Sunday investigations are necessary, particularly as it was covered up the first time around.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2019 12:30am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Tbh it would be disgraceful and totally unacceptable if there was evidence that identified the members of the Gardaí who set up those RUC men, and a decision was taken to ignore it. Have no problem with Gerry Kelly being taken on either.

The Bloody Sunday investigations are necessary, particularly as it was covered up the first time around.

First time? It's over 40 years and nobody has stood in a court to answer for it yet.

citytillidie · 21-07-2019 1:45am

downcow wrote: »

It is a ludicrous suggestion. I’ll give you a wee example. Rural community and my neighbours house was blown up in a no warning bomb that was meant to kill the family. My other neighbours drugged the guard dogs to let the ira in. These neighbours visit in each other’s houses and be just ordinary neighbours. Do you really think that the catholic neighbours are going to own up to assisting in the attempted murder of their ‘friends’ And situations like this are replicated hundreds of times across rural communities.
It’s just not happening. It could potentially set off significant further conflict and settling of old scores that people are trying to forget about

I will give you an other example, I know someone who lost a family member to the BA and the soldier never stood trail.

Lady was in her garden at the time or a raid and was killed by the Army

downcow · 21-07-2019 9:30am

_blaaz wrote: »

Pretty much as possible,or else the south african style peace and reconciation commission....if the british have problems with that,they shouldnt done so much killing/let whole thing drag on as long
m

There is not the slightest chance of this happening.
Do you think there is a chance ira members will confirm that the fisherman was a British agent for the last 10+ years of the conflict and that there is another one above him. Not to mention the dozens at all other ranks.
Will the ira admit that they were so infiltrated that the nutting squad were taking away completely innocent ira members and subjecting them to a longer slow death https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/12/18/news/ira-members-told-police-they-were-present-during-torture-sessions-says-stakeknife-detective-1511510/
Will the ira admit to the blatant sectarian nature of much of their campaign.
Will the ira admit to the regular 3day tortures and assignation of our neighbours. Eg Will they admit to taking an ruc man away and finally finishing him off in a bath of hot water after cutting off his penis and putting it in his mouth.
Will MLAs and neighbours admit to some of this.
And that’s just one side. The uvf etc were not shy at torturing people either.

You are in fantasy land if you think this could happen and even if it did that it would not retraumatise the community and ignite reprisals.

It is just a nonsense

downcow · 21-07-2019 9:33am

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think I am comming round to Downcows point of view, strangely enough. Constantly rakeing over the coals on both sides is not doing anyone any good.

However it is entirely another thing to publicly support soldier F and put up banners of support. That kind of activity can only be intended to outrage and provoke.

I appreciate your honesty. And I hear you annoyance at the banners. (Maybe we are immune up here from noticing how are actions hurt the other). Of course those that are putting them up are outraged and feel proveked the the singling out of soldier f. But I take your point

_blaaz · 21-07-2019 9:34am

downcow wrote: »

There is not the slightest chance of this happening.
Do you think there is a chance ira members will confirm that the fisherman was a British agent for the last 10+ years of the conflict and that there is another one above him. Not to mention the dozens at all other ranks.
Will the ira admit that they were so infiltrated that the nutting squad were taking away completely innocent ira members and subjecting them to a longer slow death https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/12/18/news/ira-members-told-police-they-were-present-during-torture-sessions-says-stakeknife-detective-1511510/
Will the ira admit to the blatant sectarian nature of much of their campaign.
Will the ira admit to the regular 3day tortures and assignation of our neighbours. Eg Will they admit to taking an ruc man away and finally finishing him off in a bath of hot water after cutting off his penis and putting it in his mouth.
Will MLAs and neighbours admit to some of this.
And that’s just one side. The uvf etc were not shy at torturing people either.

You are in fantasy land if you think this could happen and even if it did that it would not retraumatise the community and ignite reprisals.

It is just a nonsense

Have you even a smigen of evidence to suggest they wont?

Seems to.me yous are wanting to pour cold water over any proposals to deal with legacy issues all the while marching about to celebrate a 300 years ago victory

How is that

As for reprisals id struggle to have sympathy for anyone caught up in em tbh

21-07-2019 9:35am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not saying British soldiers shouldn't be prosecuted,what I'm saying is for justice to be seen as fair and balanced then ira soldiers should be subject to the same rules and not get off with ridiculous sentences(18 months?that's a joke!)

But you're equating apples and oranges.

The IRA are either soldiers or terrorists, depending on who is taking about them.

For years, the British government, and people, referred to them as terrorists, as did most of the Irish people, along with the Irish Government.

In the GFA negotiations, the British Government came to an agreement about the IRA, AND Loyalist terrorists - all of whom had blood on their hands.
It was an agreement I personally didn't agree with - but, if I remember correctly, equal numbers of "political prisoners" were released - and the GFA was agreed.

2 decades later, suddenly some British Government ministers, and members of the British public think that agreement should be changed - despite knowing that innocent civil right protesters were mown down in the street like rabid dogs, pursued by armed soldiers while they were trying to flee, and in one case, shot, while lying on the ground, mortally wounded.

It was absolutely reprehensible behavior worthy of the most depraved terrorist - and it deserves to be punished.

The thing is, the British Government and people don't regard their soldiers as terrorists- and in a lot of cases, rightly so - but to then complain that the GFA should be changed to give "equal" treatment to those soldiers who went on a murder spree is approval of that murder spree - and that is absolutely disgusting. It's akin to giving Carte Blanche to random soldiers to go on a human hunting spree whenever they want.....

That's just sick!

downcow · 21-07-2019 9:38am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My criteria is if there are objections and the public peace is threatened.

I object to the OO parading their triumphalism anywhere and I think they are a toxic organisation because of their suprematist past and their political intent, which is seen in the resolutions I posted before.
I am prepared to concede to them parading as long as those who don't want them being accommodated.
I have also said that provocative displays intended to inflame or triumphalise should be banned whosever is indulging in them.

Would you apply this to all cultural express or are you just singling out the OO.
And does ‘objections’ mean 1 person, 10%, 50%. Unfortunately you are still completely vague. So I cannot answer your questyas to whether I support them or not

RobMc59 · 21-07-2019 9:46am

_blaaz wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not saying British soldiers shouldn't be prosecuted,what I'm saying is for justice to be seen as fair and balanced then ira soldiers should be subject to the same rules and not get off with ridiculous sentences(18 months?that's a joke!)

Your essemtially proposing tearing up the gfa....its only pre 1974 offences arent covered by limited jail terms

But yes if someone was sentenced to say 70 years for killing aiden mcenespie (even more clearcut case than soldier f,imo)that soldier will only serve 18 to 24 months......theres no big conspiracy/plot to mistreat soldiers.....the law equally applies

Your either unaware of the facts or delibertely misrepresenting the situation

I'm telling it like it is-the British public think its wrong ira killers appear to be getting away virtually scott free-there was one on boards a few months ago laughing about getting released early...

downcow · 21-07-2019 9:51am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's a pity the British public didn't see that only 4 soldiers charged and found guilty of murder during the entire conflict was also a double standard not to mention that they were released after 3 to 4 years and allowed to return to their regiments. Morally upstanding or morally better than anyone else? My ass they are. The British haven't a leg to stand on lecturing anyone else.

Francie where are you getting your stats about the number of BA found guilty of murder. RFJ no doubt. I don’t believe them so a link would be good with some evidence

_blaaz · 21-07-2019 9:53am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm telling it like it is-the British public think its wrong ira killers appear to be getting away virtually scott free-

That is your politians and press misleading you....these were part of agreements on the gfa,noone got away scot free (and can stil be returned to jail for breach of peace etc,like the.shankill bomber was briefly)

There is still people convicted for offences during the troubles...this notion people got off scot free is lies and fact noone in britain.calls it out is a disgrace

there was one on boards a few months ago laughing about getting released early...

Dont pay any heed to people on windup online?

Jimmy Garlic · 21-07-2019 9:54am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm telling it like it is-the British public think its wrong ira killers appear to be getting away virtually scott free-there was one on boards a few months ago laughing about getting released early...

Loyalist killers enjoyed the same GFA perks so what's the problem?

downcow · 21-07-2019 9:56am

_blaaz wrote: »

Your essemtially proposing tearing up the gfa....its only pre 1974 offences arent covered by limited jail terms

But yes if someone was sentenced to say 70 years for killing aiden mcenespie (even more clearcut case than soldier f,imo)that soldier will only serve 18 to 24 months......theres no big conspiracy/plot to mistreat soldiers.....the law equally applies

Your either unaware of the facts or delibertely misrepresenting the situation

Now who is ither unaware of the facts or delibertely misrepresenting the situation.
It is impossible that aiden n mcanespie was murdered never mind someone convicted.
The bullet that killed him recosheyed of the road some distance from him. It was def not aimed at him so can’t be murder.
We can argue about whether the soldiers wet hands led to an accidental misfire or whether he was playing silly games. Either way it was not murder.

downcow · 21-07-2019 9:58am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Tbh it would be disgraceful and totally unacceptable if there was evidence that identified the members of the Gardaí who set up those RUC men, and a decision was taken to ignore it. Have no problem with Gerry Kelly being taken on either.

The Bloody Sunday investigations are necessary, particularly as it was covered up the first time around.

Fair enough. That’s a consistent approach even though I disagree.

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2019 10:04am

downcow wrote: »

Would you apply this to all cultural express or are you just singling out the OO.
And does ‘objections’ mean 1 person, 10%, 50%. Unfortunately you are still completely vague. So I cannot answer your questyas to whether I support them or not

It isn't me that has to be satisfied downcow it is the Commission that OO has been at loggerheads with since it's inception.
Here is it's Code Of Conduct and Procedural Rules, there is also rulings given on each decision.
https://www.paradescommission.org/getmedia/45e15b11-ffe7-4b11-b603-10a9f2e59ca5/NorthernIrelandParadesCommission.aspx

https://www.paradescommission.org/getmedia/a8135b81-eec6-45e3-8e1c-33b5d073b312/NorthernIrelandParadesCommission.aspx
Quelle Surprise that an Order, used to getting it's way for years, would not like a Parades Commission and set out to undermine it.

I took the time to read their objections on the OO website and it is basically a lament for a time when the OO got to do what they liked.

citytillidie · 21-07-2019 10:09am

downcow wrote: »

Now who is ither unaware of the facts or delibertely misrepresenting the situation.
It is impossible that aiden n mcanespie was murdered never mind someone convicted.
The bullet that killed him recosheyed of the road some distance from him. It was def not aimed at him so can’t be murder.
We can argue about whether the soldiers wet hands led to an accidental misfire or whether he was playing silly games. Either way it was not murder.

Same thing happened in Derry when even the police confirmed the bullet that killed that poor journalist bounced off a police land rover before hitting her so now are you excusing that guy who fired that gun?

Rodin · 21-07-2019 10:11am

janfebmar wrote: »

If you are sheltering behind a land rover and being attacked by hundreds of missiles in a riot, and the road is filled with missile debris ( as shown in the Irish times photo before the shooting started) , and you believe your life is in danger ( only 2 days previously other security force personnel were murdered in the same city by Republicans), then while 99.999% of the time the British army did not fire live rounds back, but in Derry they did, and you equate those soldiers with the pira who planned Enniskillen bombing and Le Mons hotel and Claudy bombing etc well in advance and murdered innocents?

Two different situations, I would think, and I do not condone those who shot people on Bloody Sunday.

Your life is in danger from a civilian lying prone on the ground before he gets a couple of more rounds to finish him off?

Rodin · 21-07-2019 10:13am

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your honesty. And I hear you annoyance at the banners. (Maybe we are immune up here from noticing how are actions hurt the other). Of course those that are putting them up are outraged and feel proveked the the singling out of soldier f. But I take your point

If your argument is that he shouldn't be singled out and in fact many more need prosecuted including thos3 im charge on the day, then I completely agree.

But Soldier F is a murderer. He executed civilians. He should not in any way be supported.

Rodin · 21-07-2019 10:17am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

First time? It's over 40 years and nobody has stood in a court to answer for it yet.

Talking about Widgery.

RobMc59 · 21-07-2019 10:59am

citytillidie wrote: »

Same thing happened in Derry when even the police confirmed the bullet that killed that poor journalist bounced off a police land rover before hitting her so now are you excusing that guy who fired that gun?

The ira are still using the same tactics,hiding behind the public taking pot shots at the authorities-that`s how Lyra was murdered-what do you think her family think when they hear the ira saying it`s the PSNI`s fault for being there.
I`m not condoning what happened on bloody sunday in any way shape or form.
You probably have a fair bit to do with mainland British people-do you think we`re all crazed lunatics?There are bad apples in every society but that does`nt justify tarring everyone with the same brush.
I also stand by my assertion that the vast majority of British people think the prosecution of soldier F should only happen if the ira soldiers are also brought to justice.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 21-07-2019 11:06am

RobMc59 wrote: »

The ira are still using the same tactics,hiding behind the public taking pot shots at the authorities-that`s how Lyra was murdered-what do you think her family think when they hear the ira saying it`s the PSNI`s fault for being there.
I`m not condoning what happened on bloody sunday in any way shape or form.
You probably have a fair bit to do with British people-do you think we`re all crazed lunatics?There are bad apples in every society but that does`nt justify tarring everyone with the same brush.
I also stand by my assertion that the vast majority of British people think the prosecution of soldier F should only happen if the ira soldiers are also brought to justice.

The two things are totally different. the person killed by soldier F was a british citizen and had nothing to do with the IRA. Why are you ok with extra judicial shootings of British citizens who are protesting?

FrancieBrady · 21-07-2019 11:11am

RobMc59 wrote: »

The ira are still using the same tactics,hiding behind the public taking pot shots at the authorities-that`s how Lyra was murdered-what do you think her family think when they hear the ira saying it`s the PSNI`s fault for being there.
I`m not condoning what happened on bloody sunday in any way shape or form.
You probably have a fair bit to do with mainland British people-do you think we`re all crazed lunatics?There are bad apples in every society but that does`nt justify tarring everyone with the same brush.
I also stand by my assertion that the vast majority of British people think the prosecution of soldier F should only happen if the ira soldiers are also brought to justice.

Are the 'vast majority' of British people qualified to have an opinion though.
Do they know all that went on? For instance:

• The Attorney General was “always ready to receive representations” from army officers to prevent soldiers being charged with serious crimes.

• Less than 10% of all cases submitted to the DPP, regarding shootings or assault incidents involving soldiers, resulted in prosecutions.

• MoD officials were assured that the Attorney General and DPP were all ex-army and by “no means unsympathetic” to the plight of soldiers.

• By 1976 the British army had paid out the equivalent of £5.7m in today’s money in more than 400 out-of-court settlements to avoid soldiers being convicted of unlawful shootings and assaults on civilians.

• The army’s most senior soldier warned that any decision to convict soldiers would force the British army to review its entire operation in Northern Ireland.

https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/declassified-documents-reveal-army-lobbied-attorney-general-not-to-prosecute-soldiers

RobMc59 · 21-07-2019 11:14am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The two things are totally different. the person killed by soldier F was a british citizen and had nothing to do with the IRA. Why are you ok with extra judicial shootings of British citizens who are protesting?

If you look at what i`ve posted I`ve never said I`m ok with anyone being shot.

The glorious 12th

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