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12-07-2019, 03:00   #181
ILoveYourVibes
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Originally Posted by gozunda View Post
In addition to the Chief Rabbi's Isaac Herzog and his support of "the First Dáil and the Irish republican cause during the Irish War of Independence, and who became known as "the Sinn Féin Rabbi" as detailed previously - there is this regarding the Jewish communities links with the founding of the Irish state & etc -


Yeah I know. Kind of makes what the IRA did even more disgusting really doesn't it?
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12-07-2019, 05:01   #182
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Yeah I know. Kind of makes what the IRA did even more disgusting really doesn't it?
Well, there's no shortage of disgusting things done by the IRA over the years, is there?

But, is has to be said, IRA co-operation with the Nazis was mostly opportunistic, and not based on any kind of shared antisemitism. It may be deplorable that elements in the IRA were prepared to overlook Hitler's antisemitism, but they certainly weren't drawn to it. Even Sean Russell, the most notorious of the IRA figures to line up with the Nazis, wasn't ideological about it; he was equally ready to line up with the Bolsheviks in the 1920s. He was simply a totally one-eyed old-fashioned militant nationalist, and would co-operate with anybody in any way that he thought would advance his cause.

Jim O'Donovan, another IRA figure involved in contacts with the Nazis, does seem to have become pro-Nazi himself. Interestingly, though, he started out co-operating with the Nazis for purely pragmatic reasons; it is only after some exposure to them that he started to express ideological commitment. In 1942 he is writing about an independent Ireland allying itself with Germany in a common struggle against international freemasonry and Jewry. By this point the Germans had lost interest in the IRA as potential collaborators (because they were useless, basically) and it's possible that O'Donovan was writing this stuff in an attempt to maintain their enthusiasm. But those who knew him say no, it was sincere. Either way, he stoppped publicly taking this line after 1945, for obvious reasons. By then he had become a fairly marginal figure in Irish republicanism. I don't think he ever renounced the views he had expressed during the war.
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12-07-2019, 05:40   #183
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The IRA in the north supported Hitler. As did old IRA men in the south.
The IRA "supported" Hitler as much as they supported Churchill.

The only contact the IRA had with the nazis was on an extremely low level as the Germans were interested in seeing how they could so seeds of armed conflict in Ireland to draw some British focus away from their prosecution of the war on them. When the Germans realised that any armed struggle was going to cause them more of a headache than a relief, they lost interest.

The interest of the Irish, on the other hand, extended to what and how much the Germans could give them to fight the British on their island. Their primary delivery concern being in the shape of a Mauser K98.

The IRA used the Germans as an arms funnel, because A. It was impossible to get weapons elsewhere and B. The Germans were willing and had to means to hand them over.
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12-07-2019, 06:11   #184
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The IRA "supported" Hitler as much as they supported Churchill.

The only contact the IRA had with the nazis was on an extremely low level as the Germans were interested in seeing how they could so seeds of armed conflict in Ireland to draw some British focus away from their prosecution of the war on them. When the Germans realised that any armed struggle was going to cause them more of a headache than a relief, they lost interest.

The interest of the Irish, on the other hand, extended to what and how much the Germans could give them to fight the British on their island. Their primary delivery concern being in the shape of a Mauser K98.

The IRA used the Germans as an arms funnel, because A. It was impossible to get weapons elsewhere and B. The Germans were willing and had to means to hand them over.

I am sorry but this is complete fabrication and a serious crime against the truth in what was a diabolical act by the IRA. It can never be forgiven.

It must never be forgotten.

There are many memorials to these monsters.

They even tried to engineer a nazi invasion of NI. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...n-Ireland.html

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A PLOT by the IRA to link up with the Nazis to invade Northern Ireland during the Second World War was disclosed in secret service files published by the Public Record Office yesterday.

According to the MI5 records, Germany parachuted a spy into Southern Ireland in 1940 to assess the feasibility of the plan after being approached by the terrorist group.
The IRA aided Nazi intelligence, organised safe houses for spies and guided Luftwaffe bombings of Belfast and Londonderry.

The Sinn Fein leader JJ O'Kelly, in 1940, praised Hitler for freeing Germany from the "heel" of the
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"Jewish white slave traffic".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._O%27Kelly

JJ O'Kelly was possibly one of the most anti semitic men in Ireland at the time. My grandfather used to tell me about him.

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In 1916, members of Ireland's Jewish community protested after the Bulletin published a series of articles by Fr. T.H. Burbage accusing the Jewish community of carrying out ritual murders ; O'Kelly refused to apologise for the articles.
The IRA's publication War News expressed satisfaction that "the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe".

In relation to Sean Russell, while the stormtroopers were pillaging their way through Europe, Russell was given diplomatic status by the Nazis when he arrived in Berlin in May 1940.

They absolutely supported the Nazis both ideologically and physically. They also supported there anti-semitism That is a fact and there is undeniable proof.

There is a past that Sinn Fein has never addressed. Same with the blueshirts quite frankly.
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12-07-2019, 06:49   #185
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^

Sifting through the unnecessary emotive language, none of your post supports your position that the IRA, as an organisation, were pro nazi. There may have been individuals, like O'Kelly, who were. But as a whole, this is not the case and their "support" was of a more "opportunistic" nature as Peregrinus has already pointed out and largely concerned with what arms the Germans could supply, as I've already stated.

In addition, the Telegraph link is nothing but a flight of fancy. While there were airy fairy "plans" (that were never anything more than paper musings and the results of fanciful talking shops), there was NEVER EVER going to be anything approaching an actual enactment of anything like an invasion of Northern Ireland.

Put simply, the Germans hadn't the resources to put anything like that into effect.

These "plans" were nothing more than mental exercises and feasibility studies, or which ALL armies engage in ALL of the time, especially during a war. The British has their own plan for invading Ireland too, but it was never going to take shape in any serious manner.

As the Telegraph article states, "Goertz's mission was to examine this proposal...". In other words, this "plan" was a fanciful proposal that was looked at and was never going to put into action.

The IRA's association with the Germans during the war certainly doesn't cover them in any kind of glory and it's a stick to beat them with (one of many), but there was certainly no "meeting of the minds" between the IRA and the Nazi's on anything approaching a general level of consensus.
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12-07-2019, 06:54   #186
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^

supports your position that the IRA, as an organisation, were pro nazi.
Please just stop.

They guided the luftwaffe to help them bomb belfast.

900 people died.

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The IRA activist said that he gathered intelligence information about vulnerable targets before and after the Germans carried out the four air raids in 1941, and also reported on damage caused in the attacks.
After the raids the IRA produced a 14-page survey of the damage caused by the Luftwaffe and provided information and advice for the Axis power.
The document was intercepted though and that was how it came to be known that the IRA had guided the luftwaffe to targets in Belfast.

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The typescript IRA document was entitled Comprehensive Military Report on Belfast and was "issued by the director of intelligence in co-operation with the military intelligence officer of northern command".

It came to light on October 20, 1941, when an IRA courier was arrested in Dublin and the document was found in her handbag.
Belfast was crucial to allied forces as it was key in manufacturing weapons for the allies in the war effort.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/o...-34645486.html

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The IRA report gave a detailed account of the damage caused by the Luftwaffe and identified targets which had escaped destruction. There was also a map on which the IRA had marked "the remaining and most outstanding objects of military significance, as yet unblitzed by the Luftwaffe".

The report contained a diagram of the Short & Harland aircraft factory, a plan of Sydenham aerodrome, details on the British Army, the names and addresses of British officers, a scheme for sabotaging the Belfast telephone system and details of RUC barracks in the city.
Absolutely there was a meeting of the minds. This is an absolute fact its undeniable.

Last edited by ILoveYourVibes; 12-07-2019 at 06:57.
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12-07-2019, 07:04   #187
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Not to mention that Sinn Fein publications continuously attacked the Jewish community in Ireland throughout the 30s and 40s.

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Throughout the 1930s Sinn Féin publications written by O’Kelly had repeatedly attacked alleged Jewish influence in Ireland.
http://holocaustonline.org/ira-irish-republican-army/


You can check out the references on this Holocaust online site below the article.
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12-07-2019, 07:35   #188
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Originally Posted by ILoveYourVibes View Post
Not to mention that Sinn Fein publications continuously attacked the Jewish community in Ireland throughout the 30s and 40s.



http://holocaustonline.org/ira-irish-republican-army/


You can check out the references on this Holocaust online site below the article.
As a Jewish person in Ireland, what is your view on Israel?
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12-07-2019, 07:39   #189
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As a Jewish person in Ireland, what is your view on Israel?

Well firstly I speak only for myself. Jews have many different opinions everyone is entitled to theirs so long as they are respectful.

I believe in Israel's right to exist. I also believe in Palestine's right to exist.

I hope some day they will live in peace.

I believe in Israel's right to defend itself.

Both sides have extremists. In the end its the people living there who have to make peace and much like NI its only through reconciliation that will happen.

But just know Hamas are worse than the IRA. They are much more brutal.

My only hope though is that they live in peace.

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12-07-2019, 08:00   #190
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Originally Posted by ILoveYourVibes View Post
Please just stop.

They guided the luftwaffe to help them bomb belfast.

900 people died.
The Luftwaffe needed no help from the IRA to bomb Belfast. They had maps, reconnaissance and Y Gerat to aid them with that job perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by ILoveYourVibes View Post
Belfast was crucial to allied forces as it was key in manufacturing weapons for the allies in the war effort.
I've studied the war for decades. My father was in the Royal Engineers during it and my mother was an evacuee from Guernsey. Both of them were furnishing me with reading material since I was a child. You don't ever have to feel the need to try and tell me anything to do with WWII.

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Absolutely there was a meeting of the minds. This is an absolute fact its undeniable.
No. There wasn't and the historical record stands against you.

When the Nazi's came to power in 1933, the IRA wrote about them in very disparaging terms, condemning it as a "Fascist state" and saying that the Nazi's had created a "collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants." They were highly critical of the likes of Dachau, which was being used to persecute German Socialists and felt that Hitler had coerced the German people wrongly.

During the Spanish Civil War, the IRA sent men to fight in the International Brigades on the side that fought against German and Fascist interests in that country.

But, during the Second World War, there was a change of approach regarding the IRA and the Germans, who ended up becoming strange bedfellows, primarily based on their mutual enemy, the British. But to characterise this relationship as something akin to lockstep agreement is a falsehood. This support of Germany was wholly contradictory to their previous stance not met with universal approval from their few thousand strong membership, leading to many adopting an "enemy of my enemy" stance and contenting themselves to receiving the free military aid the required to fight Britain.
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12-07-2019, 08:06   #191
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Originally Posted by Tony EH View Post
When the Nazi's came to power in 1933, the IRA wrote about them in very disparaging terms, condemning it as a "Fascist state" and saying that the Nazi's had created a "collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants." They were highly critical of the likes of Dachau, which was being used to persecute German Socialists and felt that Hitler had coerced the German people wrongly.
During the Spanish Civil War, the IRA sent men to fight in the International Brigades on the side that fought against German and Fascist interests in that country.
But, during the Second World War, there was a change of approach regarding the IRA and the Germans, who ended up becoming strange bedfellows, primarily based on their mutual enemy, the British. But to characterise this relationship as something akin to lockstep agreement is a falsehood. This support of Germany was wholly contradictory to their previous stance not met with universal approval from their few thousand strong membership, leading to many adopting an "enemy of my enemy" stance and contenting themselves to receiving the free military aid the required to fight Britain.
They can't even claim ignorance as a defence then. They knew exactly who they were getting into bed with. The IRA were Nazi collaborators; and if their only concern about Dachau was what happened to socialists; and not Jews, they were anti-semites too.
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12-07-2019, 08:07   #192
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The Luftwaffe needed no help from the IRA to bomb Belfast. They had maps, reconnaissance and Y Gerat to aid them with that job perfectly fine.



I've studied the war for decades. My father was in the Royal Engineers during it and my mother was an evacuee from Guernsey. Both of them were furnishing me with reading material since I was a child. You don't ever have to feel the need to try and tell me anything to do with WWII.



No. There wasn't and the historical record stands against you.

When the Nazi's came to power in 1933, the IRA wrote about them in very disparaging terms, condemning it as a "Fascist state" and saying that the Nazi's had created a "collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants." They were highly critical of the likes of Dachau, which was being used to persecute German Socialists and felt that Hitler had coerced the German people wrongly.

During the Spanish Civil War, the IRA sent men to fight in the International Brigades on the side that fought against German and Fascist interests in that country.

But, during the Second World War, there was a change of approach regarding the IRA and the Germans, who ended up becoming strange bedfellows, primarily based on their mutual enemy, the British. But to characterise this relationship as something akin to lockstep agreement is a falsehood. This support of Germany was wholly contradictory to their previous stance not met with universal approval from their few thousand strong membership, leading to many adopting an "enemy of my enemy" stance and contenting themselves to receiving the free military aid the required to fight Britain.

You are in total denial. But to be honest I don't think this thread should be taken up by this debate.

But just know its a part of history and not ignored in the Jewish world.

Also the fact that SF are still anti Semitic is not ignored either. The fact that the SF mayor of Dublin went to an event to commemorate Hajj Amin al-Husseini is not ignored.

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12-07-2019, 08:14   #193
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In truth, I don't the we can see the IRA as a monlithic institution, of one mind on all things. About the only thing that united the IRA was a commitment to militant Irish republicanism. On every other question, there were divergent opinions.

It's certainly true that, within the IRA, there were individuals who were sympathetic to, or attracted by, Nazism. But equally there were those whose political instincts would have been at the opposite end of the spectrum and, truth be told, there were probably the larger group. This didn't stop them being willing to co-operate with the Nazis against what they saw as a common enemy, but that doesn't make them Nazi sympathisers any more than a previous generation who dealt with Imperial Germany thereby became German imperialists.

There were also Irish nationalist Nazi sympathisers who left, or remained outside, the IRA, mostly because they found the IRA too left-wing; too tainted by communism. And there were also left-wing Republicans who kept their disance from the IRA becuase they didn't consider it sufficiently left-wing, or sufficiently internationalist.

There are certainly individuals within the republican movement about whom we can reasonably make judgments that they were, or were not, Nazi sympathisers. But making such judgments about the movement as a whole is much more difficult because, on all questions other than Irish republican militarism, the movement was pretty diverse, and indeed characterised by constant splits, power struggles and shifting internal alliances.
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12-07-2019, 08:17   #194
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In truth, I don't the we can see the IRA as a monlithic institution, of one mind on all things. About the only thing that united the IRA was a commitment to militant Irish republicanism. On every other question, there were divergent opinions.

It's certainly true that, within the IRA, there were individuals who were sympathetic to, or attracted by, Nazism. But equally there were those whose political instincts would have been at the opposite end of the spectrum and, truth be told, there were probably the larger group. This didn't stop them being willing to co-operate with the Nazis against what they saw as a common enemy, but that doesn't make them Nazi sympathisers any more than a previous generation who dealt with Imperial Germany thereby became German imperialists.

There were also Irish nationalist Nazi sympathisers who left, or remained outside, the IRA, mostly because they found the IRA too left-wing; too tainted by communism. And there were also left-wing Republicans who kept their disance from the IRA becuase they didn't consider it sufficiently left-wing, or sufficiently internationalist.

There are certainly individuals within the republican movement about whom we can reasonably make judgments that they were, or were not, Nazi sympathisers. But making such judgments about the movement as a whole is much more difficult because, on all questions other than Irish republican militarism, the movement was pretty diverse, and indeed characterised by constant splits, power struggles and shifting internal alliances.
The plan for Germany to invade NI was developed at an IRA convention.
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12-07-2019, 08:25   #195
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Im pretty sure Lenny Abrahamson - a famous Irish director - is of Jewish Heritage, but im open to correction on that one. Amy Hubermans grandparents are jewish and the famous 'Man on bridge', Arthur Fields was also Jewish. From what I gather, it seems any Jewish community we have in Ireland seems to be based mostly around Rathgar/Rathmines. I remember my father telling me when he was young he worked on a building site in a jewish school in Dublin.
Portobello is viewed as the Jewish quarter in Dublin
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