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12-07-2019, 01:05   #196
chuchuchu
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For whatever reasons the children are born, they most certainly do have an obligation to take care of their parents as they age. This may not be in the form of money, but for well being and health. I know a friend who's mother had a stroke, she became incoherent, and had a long path to recovery. Only for her family, nobody would have really cared for her, as everybody else was busy with their own lives. Her children took turns visiting her in hospital and ensured she was being treated right, when she got out of hospital, they hired a person to take care of her in her home while they were out working. This included alot of interviewing to get the right person. No way could all this be done if she was on her own. And you hear too many stories of neglect in hospitals and nursing homes. Alot of old people die early too without purpose in their life, their children/grand children and seeing them grow, can give them alot of purpose and feeling of belonging in life.
And I mean old like 70's, 80's, 90's... most people can take care of themselves up to retirement age
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12-07-2019, 06:42   #197
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Different people have different priorities - I personally feel people prioritise careers way more than they should. Sure it's nice to have money, but you also need time to spend it and someone to spend it on. Money on it's own is nothing to write home about.

Kids are what make life worth living, (well mine anyway) not holidays or cars, certainly not a job, or in fact anything material. We're all going to end up in a box at the end of the day (metaphorically speaking, I'd be fairly sure most of us will see tomorrow)

No one ever lies on their death bed wishing they'd worked longer hours!
Kids are like dishwashers, unless you have one, you don't need one.
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12-07-2019, 08:12   #198
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Yeah, dealing with shîtty nappies and tantrums makes life complete. Each to their own.
Yeah. Fortnite gives life meaning for me
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12-07-2019, 08:35   #199
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To you. For me, nothing will ever come close to the feeling of love and closeness I felt towards my husband in the week following our failed IVF. When you're at your saddest and most vulnerable, it's incredibly powerful to look at the man you married and realise that he's everything you need in life. I always wanted children, but I very quickly realised that I'm fulfilled with our without.
that actually brought a lump to my throat. but, with respect, what other way could you feel? your sanity and happiness demanded it.
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12-07-2019, 10:04   #200
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While I would agree with some of your points, I wouldn’t agree that having children is a sacrifice that will pay off later in life in that they will take care of you when you are old.
Youre living in dreamland if you believe that. My mum lives 3 hours drive from me and 2 hours from my brother. We. Both have families of our own and mortgages to pay and she won't budge from her house. So she has no one to take care of her. I don't expect my kids to take care of me when I'm old
You need to re read what I wrote what I said was that people should not beget children with the expectation said children will nurse the into old age. That would be the most narcissistic reason ever for having children.
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12-07-2019, 11:11   #201
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But all I'm saying is that people who don't have children can't dispute that it's the best feeling ever when their child is born. I'd say it is. But I'll never know as i don't want children - never did (tried to make myself as I really felt I should, but never developed those feelings) so I won't miss what I don't know.
Do you know, two friends of mine who are dads told me how freaked out they were when their kids were born because they were ready and waiting for this overwhelming wave of love and purpose and everything to hit them...and it didn't. Both great dads who went on to bond perfectly normally with their newborns and would die for their kids, one of them is a stay at home dad to his two now but they spent the first few weeks worrying there was something seriously wrong with them because they bought into the "the second you see your child everything changes" narrative. It's not the same for everyone who has kids even.

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12-07-2019, 13:28   #202
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I have lived a very hedonistic self-indulgent life before my own kids were born. Sure in your 20's and 30's kids are the last thing on your mind, but all the travelling, sex, drink, drugs, the partying wears thin after a while. You begin to realise is that it? Is this me for the next 50 years until I **** myself in a old folks home and die?

I suppose one becomes ready to move on from the self-indulgent lifestyle and start something else, something harder but ultimately much much more rewarding than a night on the beer, or a line of coke.

Seeing your own child for the first time after it being born is something indescribable, that cannot be put into words. You realise that you are part of something much bigger than yourself and that in an age of the self, having kids is one of the last vestiges of true sacrifice.
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12-07-2019, 14:29   #203
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I suppose one becomes ready to move on from the self-indulgent lifestyle and start something else, something harder but ultimately much much more rewarding than a night on the beer, or a line of coke.
While I'm delighted that you are happy with your choices, I think "self-indulgent" is an unfortunate choice of words.

I have three kids. Always wanted them, so if for whatever reason it didn't happen for me I probably would feel that there was something missing from my life.

I didn't get the "bam!" moment at birth with any of them. Maybe because I had C-sections and the usual hormones weren't flooding around, maybe it wouldn't have happened even with no C-section. In fact, I only got a "bam!" moment with my first, a few weeks in. The other two the love was a slow burner, over the days and weeks after birth. At no point have I ever felt "ahhh, now life makes sense, now I am fulfilled".

I'm happy with my choices, but there's certainly a part of me that envies the child-fee life of some of my friends. How would I feel now, if I hadn't been 100% convinced I wanted children before I had them? Maybe I would feel the same way - the same slow burner love would have happened, and I'd envy the child-free life but not so much that I'd want things differently.

But I f*cking doubt it.

I'd probably regret having children. And I'd never be able to say it publically so I'd internalize it at take it out in small ways so that my kids would grow up to be baggage filled little ****s. So what I'm trying to say is, if someone isn't 100% convinced they want kids, absolutely don't do it. There's nothing self indulgent about concentrating on your own life. We're all born, we all die, and in between we try to make the world a better place when we leave it than when we entered it.

Having children doesn't necessarily mean that you'll end up a net contributor to the world, and it is certainly less likely if you weren't convinced you wanted them in the first. So I say don't listen the "I was a self-obsessed **** who never wanted children before my surprise baby came along. I had some sort of religious epiphany on the day of the birth, and I now feel so connected to my purpose in life, that I cannot understand how I even existed before".

Because if that happened, well, fantastic for you. But for every one of you, logic dictates that there are five others who realise they just set fire to their lives and there's no way back.

And incidentally, I'm retiring to Florida when I'm 70, so I'm absolutely not counting on my kids to take care of me. I hope they end up travelling the world without even thinking about having to be close to take care of their parents.
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12-07-2019, 14:37   #204
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Indeed JDD, for some I've known having a kid was pretty self indulgent of them. Never mind that unless you were the captain of the Exxon Valdez the biggest impact you will have on the planet's environment is having a child.

But that's by the by, it's about the strongest biological imperatives there are. At a very basic level your "job" is to grow up make little copies of yourself, die, hopefully getting the little copies to the point where they can make further little copies of themselves and so on. Your body is primed for it at a very deep level. That feeling of "you are part of something much bigger than yourself"? Mostly oxytocin and other neurotransmitters flooding the oul brainbox. A natural high as it were. And fair enough.
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12-07-2019, 14:43   #205
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While I'm delighted that you are happy with your choices, I think "self-indulgent" is an unfortunate choice of words.
Perhaps, but for many, it rings true. Sure, there are people out there who devote their lives to a cause or a vocation bigger than themselves but they are rare.
Many childless couples I know just want to live a good life, with cruises, nights out, and pay for expensive experiences. Whatever floats their boat but is that all is there to life? A front row seat to see the Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

I know many older people who didn't have kids and have rich fulfilled lives.
I also know more older people who didn't have kids, who end up really lonely and depressed.

It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.

Again, whatever floats one's boat, but people sure get defensive about the issue, to the point they come across as insecure.
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12-07-2019, 14:45   #206
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And fair enough.
What's the saying?

"Knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing."

If one boils down life to mere atoms and chemical reactions in the brain, it says more about that person's own nihilistic outlook than anyone else.

Again, as I said, people sure get insecure about this topic.
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12-07-2019, 14:46   #207
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While I'm delighted that you are happy with your choices, I think "self-indulgent" is an unfortunate choice of words.
Oh I'd say it was a pretty deliberately inflammatory choice of words.
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12-07-2019, 14:48   #208
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Perhaps, but for many, it rings true. Sure, there are people out there who devote their lives to a cause or a vocation bigger than themselves but they are rare.
Many childless couples I know just want to live a good life, with cruises, nights out, and pay for expensive experiences. Whatever floats their boat but is that all is there to life? A front row seat to see the Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

I know many older people who didn't have kids and have rich fulfilled lives.
I also know more older people who didn't have kids, who end up really lonely and depressed.

It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.

Again, whatever floats one's boat, but people sure get defensive about the issue, to the point they come across as insecure.
Nobody is going to admit they regret having kids, even if you did, you would be treated as a monster.

There are loads of people miserable because of their kids or having to stay in awful relationships, the idea that only childless people have regret about their choices is very naive.
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12-07-2019, 14:51   #209
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It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.
I have met a few M. Not hate, too strong a word, but some with resentment alright. More women in that group, probably because they had to give up more. While others all men, because it's easier for them to do so, who left early on. A few have zero contact with their kids and apparently don't care, others are part time parents, play with the kid for a few hours and hand them back type of thing. Others who are workaholics and barely see their kids at the weekend(with a couple who wouldn't be pushed if that contact was even shorter) While sometimes it's the women who leave, it's rarer, but there are enough kids out there who've grown up without fathers because they sodded off soon after they popped out.
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12-07-2019, 15:06   #210
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What's the saying?

"Knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing."

If one boils down life to mere atoms and chemical reactions in the brain, it says more about that person's own nihilistic outlook than anyone else.

Again, as I said, people sure get insecure about this topic.
Meh, I'm not particularly nihilistic and I can hold two ideas in my head at once. I mean if I stub my toe it bloody hurts no matter how much I may think that it's just a cascade of chemicals going through my brain. So when I am in love I feel it very deeply and it doesn't exactly concern me that most of the chemicals involved are also to be found in chocolate.

For me I've never been particularly paternal, at all actually. I'd make for at best a lacklustre dad in general. I'm grand as the fun uncle who shows up for a while, but otherwise nope. I would have the same kinda drive to "reproduce myself" but if I ever did so knowing myself as I do, that for me would be selfish. There are enough meh parents out there, I don't need to add to their number. There are also fantastic mums and dads out there, some among my friends and more power to them.
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