Teacher poking/prodding students over posture.

TargetWidow · 10-10-2018 11:13pm #1

Daughter (10) is having some issues with one of her teachers this year and I'm hoping for advice from both teachers and parents on the best way to resolve things. She is an excellent student, academically and socially. She is one of those little girls who just adores all her teachers and lives to please them.

One of her teachers is prone to making disparaging comments and demeaning a few of her classmates as well as herself. Several are regularly reduced to tears by the experience.This often happens when they are correcting their home work based on her feedback to them. She has a young baby and threatens to bring in a baby bottle or a baby gro from he baby at home for them if they get work wrong. If they cry they are told not to cry as it's upsetting her and others. She will them demand that they smile and if they don't they are sent alone out into the corridor until they stop. I learned all this last night. The other students involved are 5 special needs students that she seems to cut no slack at all. An SNA is present when this goes on but only makes a weak attempt to defend them.

Today we just happened to be in the school building and daughter wanted to show me her classrooms. In this teachers classroom she was showing me around and she showed me an item I recognized as an analgesia pen (for pain relief) the cap of which was a large pointing finger. Daughter tells me teacher today started the trick of poking/prodding them with this pen when they aren't sitting up straight. I am well aware that student posture has a huge affect on learning outcomes but as someone who was severely physically abused as a child in school by a teacher myself, I'm not sure of my own instincts here as to whether this is ok or not.

I plan on meeting with this teacher. I have spoken to the other parents involved. One tells me they had this problem with another of her children last year and they teachers attitude was of the "tough luck this is how it is" variety. She did not take it any further. I am not like that. I plan to being my concerns to the teacher and ask that she desist from the disparaging comments and threats to bring in baby bottles/baby gros as my child finds it insulting and demeaning. I would also like to ask that the poking/prodding end. If it doesn't end I will certainly escalate the issue as far as it needs to go.

Every other teacher of both of my children seem capable of managing them perfectly without resorting to insulting them, poking them or making them cry.

I worry that leopards don't change their spots and I really don't want to create trouble for this woman as I'm aware that she is just earning a living in a challenging job. However I have to be an advocate for my child as she says this teacher hasna wicked temper and she doesn't feel safe as she's getting more and more angry with them every day.

Any advice as fellow parents or as teachers please?

evolving_doors · 10-10-2018 11:29pm

Get a meeting with the principal and ask if they are aware of the prodding. Ask them if the think the teaching council would be ok with it.

Also say that you've spoken to other parents a b think it's unusual that so many students are in tears so often, especially as it wasn't a problem in previous classes.

Slouching is the best posture anyway :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7tgopXlXxQ

killbillvol2 · 10-10-2018 11:40pm

Your own instinct to meet with the teacher first is the right one. I really don't understand why the other poster suggested meeting the principal first.

"Ask them if the think the teaching council would be ok with it." Seriously? :rolleyes:

If you're not satisfied after you meet the teacher or feel you're being fobbed off then by all means take the issue to the principal. It will lend weight to your position that you tried to resolve the issue with the teacher first.

wirelessdude01 · 10-10-2018 11:43pm

Correct procedure is to take it up with the class teacher first. Any decent principal will not entertain you unless you have done so.

Garibaldi? · 13-10-2018 10:23am

It is important to address this matter in accordance with official procedure. You do not know exactly what is happening here. You need to speak first with the adult, the teacher, and to voice your concerns. Most teachers, most adults in fact, are reasonable people. Very often, remarks are taken out of context. It is highly inappropriate for a teacher to proke/prod a child but you need to establish whether or not this is happening. The procedure is to make an appointment at a mutually suitable time. If you go to the Principal first, not alone will the teacher be offended, but it will delay resolution, as procedure, agreed by all of the partners in education, is the name of the game.

glack · 15-10-2018 4:31pm

Obviously there are huge reasons for concern here. But procedures must be followed as Garibaldi? and wirelessdude01 has said. Speak to the teacher first. The principal should not entertain you otherwise. So teacher first and if you are unhappy with the outcome, then ask to speak to the principal. Get a copy of the code of behaviour. If you don't have it, check the school website or request it from the school. Your complaint is really that you feel the teacher is not sticking to that code so knowing what it says before you approach them can be very helpful.

Rather than going in with an I'm really unhappy with this teacher complaint, pick an incident or 2, ask the teacher to explain (stories from children are often wildly inaccurate and coloured by their dislike of a certain teacher). So for example, my child tells me you have been poking/prodding them, I'm just wondering if you could fill me in on what is going on. Or, my child tells me that you have been threatening to bring them in bottles or baby gros, could you please explain?

Please try not to let your own history colour how you view this. This may be more innocent than it sounds so try to have an open mind when you speak to the teacher. Look for information rather than give out. This can be very difficult as you are rightly worried!

evolving_doors · 17-10-2018 11:07pm

glack wrote: »

Obviously there are huge reasons for concern here. But procedures must be followed as Garibaldi? and wirelessdude01 has said. Speak to the teacher first. The principal should not entertain you otherwise. So teacher first and if you are unhappy with the outcome, then ask to speak to the principal. Get a copy of the code of behaviour. If you don't have it, check the school website or request it from the school. Your complaint is really that you feel the teacher is not sticking to that code so knowing what it says before you approach them can be very helpful.

Rather than going in with an I'm really unhappy with this teacher complaint, pick an incident or 2, ask the teacher to explain (stories from children are often wildly inaccurate and coloured by their dislike of a certain teacher). So for example, my child tells me you have been poking/prodding them, I'm just wondering if you could fill me in on what is going on. Or, my child tells me that you have been threatening to bring them in bottles or baby gros, could you please explain?

Please try not to let your own history colour how you view this. This may be more innocent than it sounds so try to have an open mind when you speak to the teacher. Look for information rather than give out. This can be very difficult as you are rightly worried!

Well maybe it's just me then. But my reaction is to treat it as a child protection issue that concerns all students in that class as well as my own child.

Hence why I'd go that route of going to the Designated Liaison Person first i.e. the Principal, I'm not saying that I'd jump straight to the Teaching Council or Tusla but I'd be letting the Principal know that this is where it will go if there are concerns not being allayed . If I feel a child/children is being physically hurt or intimidated regularly (which going by the child's account they are) then it's more than a matter of 'having a quiet word with the teacher'.
I'd hazard a guess that 'having a word with the teacher' would -at best- result in the teacher cooling off on my kid and moving their methods on to other kids...

and she appears to have form from previous years of the same behaviour,

One tells me they had this problem with another of her children last year and they teachers attitude was of the "tough luck this is how it is" variety.

.

No, I wouldn't be so shy about it.

The days of letting teachers teach through shame, intimidation and fear are over. Going by the child's account this teacher makes people cry, then demeans them in front of their class, then punishes them further by expelling them from the class.

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Your own instinct to meet with the teacher first is the right one. I really don't understand why the other poster suggested meeting the principal first.

"Ask them if the think the teaching council would be ok with it." Seriously? :rolleyes:

So yes I do think the question "do you think the teaching council would be ok with it" is relevant. Because if you want to poo-poo the question then you are obviously ok with it too!

Or .... Maybe the teacher just has a few unnecessarily snowflakey students who are quick to tears and she removes them gently so that they can gather themselves respectfully and not be embarrassed in front of the class.
Who's to say? Is it for the parent to decide?

killbillvol2 · 17-10-2018 11:48pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well maybe it's just me then. But my reaction is to treat it as a child protection issue that concerns all students in that class as well as my own child.

Hence why I'd go that route of going to the Designated Liaison Person first i.e. the Principal, I'm not saying that I'd jump straight to the Teaching Council or Tusla but I'd be letting the Principal know that this is where it will go if there are concerns not being allayed . If I feel a child/children is being physically hurt or intimidated regularly (which going by the child's account they are) then it's more than a matter of 'having a quiet word with the teacher'.
I'd hazard a guess that 'having a word with the teacher' would -at best- result in the teacher cooling off on my kid and moving their methods on to other kids...

and she appears to have form from previous years of the same behaviour,
.

No, I wouldn't be so shy about it.

The days of letting teachers teach through shame, intimidation and fear are over. Going by the child's account this teacher makes people cry, then demeans them in front of their class, then punishes them further by expelling them from the class.

So yes I do think the question "do you think the teaching council would be ok with it" is relevant. Because if you want to poo-poo the question then you are obviously ok with it too!

Or .... Maybe the teacher just has a few unnecessarily snowflakey students who are quick to tears and she removes them gently so that they can gather themselves respectfully and not be embarrassed in front of the class.
Who's to say? Is it for the parent to decide?

I think you should stop posting late at night.

The above is nonsense.

evolving_doors · 18-10-2018 6:46am

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I think you should stop posting late at night.

The above is nonsense.

If you can't argue the point and just resort to putdowns then your position is clearly weak... and you posted later than me, so ditto.

Teacher is a bully.
Has form.
Been asked to stop previous years and didn't.
So ya have a word with them but I garauntee they'll just change their tack and continue.

gctest50 · 18-10-2018 7:26am

TargetWidow wrote: »

Daughter (10) is having some issues with one of her teachers this year and I'm hoping for advice from both teachers and parents on the best way to resolve things. She is an excellent student, academically and socially. She is one of those little girls who just adores all her teachers and lives to please them.

One of her teachers is prone to making disparaging comments and demeaning a few of her classmates as well as herself. Several are regularly reduced to tears by the experience.This often happens when they are correcting their home work based on her feedback to them. She has a young baby and threatens to bring in a baby bottle or a baby gro from he baby at home for them if they get work wrong. If they cry they are told not to cry as it's upsetting her and others. She will them demand that they smile and if they don't they are sent alone out into the corridor until they stop. I learned all this last night. The other students involved are 5 special needs students that she seems to cut no slack at all. An SNA is present when this goes on but only makes a weak attempt to defend them.

Today we just happened to be in the school building and daughter wanted to show me her classrooms. In this teachers classroom she was showing me around and she showed me an item I recognized as an analgesia pen (for pain relief) the cap of which was a large pointing finger. Daughter tells me teacher today started the trick of poking/prodding them with this pen when they aren't sitting up straight. I am well aware that student posture has a huge affect on learning outcomes but as someone who was severely physically abused as a child in school by a teacher myself, I'm not sure of my own instincts here as to whether this is ok or not.

I plan on meeting with this teacher. I have spoken to the other parents involved. One tells me they had this problem with another of her children last year and they teachers attitude was of the "tough luck this is how it is" variety. She did not take it any further. I am not like that. I plan to being my concerns to the teacher and ask that she desist from the disparaging comments and threats to bring in baby bottles/baby gros as my child finds it insulting and demeaning. I would also like to ask that the poking/prodding end. If it doesn't end I will certainly escalate the issue as far as it needs to go.

Every other teacher of both of my children seem capable of managing them perfectly without resorting to insulting them, poking them or making them cry.

I worry that leopards don't change their spots and I really don't want to create trouble for this woman as I'm aware that she is just earning a living in a challenging job. However I have to be an advocate for my child as she says this teacher hasna wicked temper and she doesn't feel safe as she's getting more and more angry with them every day.

Any advice as fellow parents or as teachers please?

Micky Mouse makey-uppy procedures like suggested in the following :

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Correct procedure is to take it up with the class teacher first......

Garibaldi? wrote: »

It is important to address this matter in accordance with official procedure. .........

glack wrote: »

Obviously there are huge reasons for concern here. But procedures must be followed as Garibaldi? and wirelessdude01 has said...........

don't come into it when there is a threat to a kids safety

TargetWidow wrote: »

.....

She has a young baby and threatens..................

eg. Post-partum psychosis can hit 6 months later - has involved kids getting killed by new mother

ddx since it's important to think piebalds when you hear hooves :

she may be nuttier than squirrel sh**

https://bit.ly/2NNsb2b

Upon being cautioned, Det Sgt Hoare said Ms Kenna replied ‘I’m guilty. Yeah, I ****ing did it. Is she still alive? Yeah I did it, I sliced her like you would a goat. You couldn’t have stitched that up, I cut through her like butter’.

Off to the principal with you and look for a replacement, fail that, Garda station

beauf · 18-10-2018 7:45am

I would talk to the teacher and then the year head then the principal.

Seems odd behaviour from the teacher.

evolving_doors · 18-10-2018 8:09am

beauf wrote: »

I would talk to the teacher and then the year head then the principal.

Seems odd behaviour from the teacher.

It's primary.

Main Designated person for child protection concerns is 99% of the time the Principal. That's the procedure.

beauf · 18-10-2018 8:30am

Then just talk to the principle.

Sounds like bullying behaviour to me.

what the hell! · 18-10-2018 8:35am

It's not a child protection issue. It's an issue that you discuss with the class teacher first. Then you go further if you're not satisfied with the response. Which is the principal and not the teaching council.

Garibaldi? · 18-10-2018 9:56am

The poster needs to be wary of hearsay A parent could be unduly influenced into a course of action which could cause unwarranted stress for all concerned, especially the child. Many people are quite ready to make the cannon-balls but it's frequently one fall guy who hurtles headlong into actually firing them. Agreed procedure is everybody's friend.

glack · 18-10-2018 2:11pm

Garibaldi? wrote: »

The poster needs to be wary of hearsay A parent could be unduly influenced into a course of action which could cause unwarranted stress for all concerned, especially the child. Many people are quite ready to make the cannon-balls but it's frequently one fall guy who hurtles headlong into actually firing them. Agreed procedure is everybody's friend.

Exactly. Speaking to the teacher first is procedure and also allows you to suss out the other side of the story. I'm not for one second saying that the girl is lying but sometimes stories from children that age aren't always what they seem. Take it seriously but cautiously until you speak to the teacher.

Garibaldi? · 18-10-2018 3:25pm

A parent needs to be very wary of plunging headlong into conflict with a teacher on the basis of what a child has perceived and what has been said by other parents. Also, I would be highly wary of a situation where a Principal would encourage a parent along this road. Children can be utilized as pawns in school politics. The parent is well advised to have an open and transparent talk with the teacher(arranged in accordance with school policy). Barging in with all guns blazing is a complete no-no. It is difficult to imagine any teacher poking and prodding nowadays(though it was considered acceptable in the past) Who would leave themselves open in this way? The remarks about the infant clothing and the crying may well have been made in jest. Escalation of a simple situation in school may begin to dominate a child's life, indeed the life of the whole family. The teacher may begin to expend much of her energy on communication with her union and this is of no help to her class.

beauf · 18-10-2018 3:41pm

I think if you see a change in behaviour in a child, with a new teacher, and similar is reported by other parents, and parent from previous classes. It suggests its something that teacher is doing perhaps through habit and not realising the impact, perhaps not. However if they've been dismissive of similar approaches in the past I think we can assume they are not very open minded.

I would have no fear of being frank with a teacher. Some are amazing. But some are abysmal. Same in all professions.

byhookorbycrook · 18-10-2018 8:47pm

beauf wrote: »

I think if you see a change in behaviour in a child, with a new teacher, and similar is reported by other parents, and parent from previous classes. It suggests its something that teacher is doing perhaps through habit and not realising the impact, perhaps not. However if they've been dismissive of similar approaches in the past I think we can assume they are not very open minded.

I would have no fear of being frank with a teacher. Some are amazing. But some are abysmal. Same in all professions.

Assume makes an ass etc. We don't know if the issue was raised in the past and sometimes the school gate mafia are full of stories , as Judge Judy would say, it's hearsay. The OP needs to focus on their child, if the teacher is poking/prodding their child, it needs to be sorted. The thing about babies' bottles etc. my have been said in fun and taken out of context or it may have been said in an unkind way, hence, talk to the teacher first.

beauf · 18-10-2018 9:12pm

If it quacks like a duck etc...

I like the way you've made the parents the villains of this and rubbished their concerns, and dismissed the upset kids.

Welcome to 1950...

iamwhoiam · 18-10-2018 9:16pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Assume makes an ass etc. We don't know if the issue was raised in the past and sometimes the school gate mafia are full of stories , as Judge Judy would say, it's hearsay. The OP needs to focus on their child, if the teacher is poking/prodding their child, it needs to be sorted. The thing about babies' bottles etc. my have been said in fun and taken out of context or it may have been said in an unkind way, hence, talk to the teacher first.

And how would talking to the teacher establish if the bottle and baby grow incidents were said in fun or unkind ?
The teacher is unlikely to say " I said it unkindly " ?

byhookorbycrook · 18-10-2018 9:52pm

beauf wrote: »

If it quacks like a duck etc...

I like the way you've made the parents the villains of this and rubbished their concerns, and dismissed the upset kids.

Welcome to 1950...

I think you need to re-read my post. My point was that the OP needs to listen to their child, not anyone else, But please do feel free to ignore that.

byhookorbycrook · 18-10-2018 9:55pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

And how would talking to the teacher establish if the bottle and baby grow incidents were said in fun or unkind ?
The teacher is unlikely to say " I said it unkindly " ?

*Sigh* Talking to the teacher and then with the child might clarify things. But you seem hell bent on stoning this teacher on the say so of other parents who may have a very different agenda, so please feel free to do so.Happy now?

iamwhoiam · 18-10-2018 10:03pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

*Sigh* Talking to the teacher and then with the child might clarify things. But you seem hell bent on stoning this teacher on the say so of other parents who may have a very different agenda, so please feel free to do so.Happy now?

Would you mind not being so rude ? Hell bent ? It was my first post in this thread and I am entitled to ask that question without being accused of anything ?

beauf · 18-10-2018 10:07pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

...school gate mafia are full of stories ....

Oh I read it. Parents are the Mafia apparently.

We suggest talking to the teacher. But no that's not the process.

We suggest talking to the principle so they can have a quiet word and the child need not be identified. But that's making a big deal of it.

Why do I get the impression we are trying to not hurt the teachers feelings here. Rather than pointing out the teacher has terrified her class. A class that had apparently had no major problems previously.

If the parents are the Mafia. What cute name do you have for the teacher here.

It needs to be pointed out to the teacher there is a problem. Give her an opportunity to resolve it constructively. But don't take any attitude either.

TCM · 18-10-2018 10:14pm

Can we have an update from TargetWidow as to what happened next?

byhookorbycrook · 18-10-2018 10:14pm

Ok, that's me done here. Please do condemn a teacher without the full facts. Due process doesn't seem to be important, much less innocent until proven guilty.

iamwhoiam · 18-10-2018 10:15pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ok, that's me done here. Please do condemn a teacher without the full facts. Due process doesn't seem to be important, much less innocent until proven guilty.

A discussion without being rude to others might be more benificial really . No need to be so abrasive

beauf · 19-10-2018 12:04am

I don't understand where the disparaging of everyone, posters, parents, kids came from. Everyone except the teacher. Bit baffled.

evolving_doors · 19-10-2018 7:27am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ok, that's me done here. Please do condemn a teacher without the full facts. Due process doesn't seem to be important, much less innocent until proven guilty.

Actually Child protection 'due process' says to raise the concern with the designated liaison person.... Is that the teacher involved in the accusation?

People here say prodding students and demeaning them by exclusion and making them cry isn't a child protection issue.

Even if the evidence is hearsay you MUST go to the DLP first, every teacher knows that. It's not the parent's role to ascertain if the allegations are true or not.

If in the op's post there was a suggestion of inappropriate touching of a sexual nature.... would be procedure to 'talk to the teacher' first?
Physical, emotional or sexual abuse... They're all bad. If what the kid AND other parents say is true then it would be physical and emotional abuse.

iamwhoiam · 19-10-2018 8:41am

beauf wrote: »

I don't understand where the disparaging of everyone, posters, parents, kids came from. Everyone except the teacher. Bit baffled.

Me too . Going back 25 years we had an issue with a teacher .I won't go into details now but for a few weeks the staff closed ranks and circled their wagons around her . It wasn't until another staff member walked in as the teacher was putting a 6 year old boy in the press and most of the class were crying that the wheels were set in motion to protect the children . Maybe that still happens occasionally now ?
It concerns me greatly that the OPs child mentioned the five girls with special needs were being picked on too

OP . I would be interested to hear how you dealt with your concerns and if you got any answers ?

Teacher poking/prodding students over posture.

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