BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LeinsterDub · 29-05-2017 1:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

We need to do them all.

I agree with you it's just frustrating when 2- 2.5 Bl for MN or DU causes politicians to loose their minds but half that amount on the bus network which is all short to medium term spending gets the auld 'awe sure that's grand'

devnull · 29-05-2017 1:42pm

dfx- wrote: »

So really that's the document that matters and not this one. This one is just more of the same old petty politics stuff that has been discussed to an end here. There is absolutely no reason to put the sort of effort they have done into stamping a new logo and different colour onto buses.

All of this stuff is important to providing a coherent public transport system which Dublin Bus lacks right now and is far behind most European capital cities and most large European cities which are not capitals, right now the whole thing is a disjointed mess which simply serves customers very poorly in comparison to cities like the ones I speak about in this paragraph.

At the end of the day removing lots of different companies bus stops and merging them together and having one panel of information containing all operators info managed by a central authority is a far better solution to the mess we have on our streets now which does nobody any good, it reduces pavement room for pedestrians and does not serve bus users properly.

Transport in Dublin feels like so many people doing their own thing with no regard for the bigger picture, Dublin is absolutely awful in that regard, everyone looks after themselves and couldn't care less about the bigger system, as long as they are getting the best for themselves. That we are told, is one of the arguments about privatisation as it leads to fragmentation and lack of joined up thinking, but we have the very same problem here with public services.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2017 1:44pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I agree with you it's just frustrating when 2- 2.5 Bl for MN or DU causes politicians to loose their minds but half that amount on the bus network which is all short to medium term spending gets the auld 'awe sure that's grand'

I agree with you too! I would share your frustrations.

The pressure needs to be kept on the politicians to deliver the rail based solutions and at the same time to deliver this project in full.

devnull · 29-05-2017 1:54pm

Can we try and keep things related here to upcoming changes to Bus Services in the Dublin Area.

This is absolutely not the place to discuss the history of trade unions and 1916.

Moderator

dfx- · 29-05-2017 1:57pm

devnull wrote: »

All of this stuff is important to providing a coherent public transport system which Dublin Bus lacks right now and is far behind most European capital cities and most large European cities which are not capitals, right now the whole thing is a disjointed mess which simply serves customers very poorly in comparison to cities like the ones I speak about in this paragraph.

At the end of the day removing lots of different companies bus stops and merging them together and having one panel of information containing all operators info managed by a central authority is a far better solution to the mess we have on our streets now which does nobody any good, it reduces pavement room for pedestrians and does not serve bus users properly.

Transport in Dublin feels like so many people doing their own thing with no regard for the bigger picture, Dublin is absolutely awful in that regard, everyone looks after themselves and couldn't care less about the bigger system, as long as they are getting the best for themselves. That we are told, is one of the arguments about privatisation as it leads to fragmentation and lack of joined up thinking, but we have the very same problem here with public services.

All of the various bus stops on Westmoreland St (especially around the 16) and the colour of the buses being homogenised is not worth a penny if what arrive to them is yet another 9C, 13C, 40C or as is regularly the case a fully loaded 16 with twenty people waiting at it.

Fixing the Network Direct cuts/routes is all that matters, nothing else. They account for a huge amount of passengers and their opinion of the service here in Dublin - not any other European city.

It should be the solitary goal of the NTA, nothing else like in this document. All these issues are how they will be caught in a web of politics, idealism and rabbit holes.

devnull · 29-05-2017 2:04pm

dfx- wrote: »

All of the various bus stops on Westmoreland St (especially around the 16) and the colour of the buses being homogenised is not worth a penny if what arrive to them is yet another 9C, 13C, 40C or as is regularly the case a fully loaded 16 with twenty people waiting at it.

I agree that the routes need to be sorted out and re-designed, but that is what the network review is going to be used for. It's going to be carried out by external experts who have been involved in such exercises across Europe as well as the Americas, which I'm hopeful will work out better than Network Direct, having some external eyes on things in my view will help with this since they have less pre-conceptions and start with a blank canvass.

Fixing the Network Direct cuts/routes is all that matters, nothing else. They account for a huge amount of passengers and their opinion of the service here in Dublin - not any other European city.

It is important, but at the same time modal share of public transport is poor in Dublin compared to a lot of other European cities, that is because the system is unfriendly, not very well integrated and very confusing for people to use, for current passengers of course more reliable services are the number one, but if we want to get cars off the road we need to make the system more friendly.

I have been in about 10 capital cities in the last 2 or 3 years and honestly Dublin is by far the worst for the transport system. Every one of the others has has a proper system where everything wears the same colors, the same tickets, with information in the same format, for all operators. It's so easy to use.

It should be the solitary goal of the NTA, nothing else like in this document. All these issues are how they will be caught in a web of politics, idealism and rabbit holes.

So you believe in a fragmented system? Because that is essentially what we have right now and the unions are at pains to point out that fragmentation is bad and that is why the UK's system is so poor.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 2:12pm

At the end of the day the NTA should just be there to regulate, not interfere, leave it to the operators.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2017 2:12pm

dfx- wrote: »

All of the various bus stops on Westmoreland St (especially around the 16) and the colour of the buses being homogenised is not worth a penny if what arrive to them is yet another 9C, 13C, 40C or as is regularly the case a fully loaded 16 with twenty people waiting at it.

Fixing the Network Direct cuts/routes is all that matters, nothing else. They account for a huge amount of passengers and their opinion of the service here in Dublin - not any other European city.

It should be the solitary goal of the NTA, nothing else like in this document. All these issues are how they will be caught in a web of politics, idealism and rabbit holes.

To be fair all of the elements to this are important, some less than others, but they all add up to delivering a better service.

Until the city centre stops being a massive building site and consistent journey times start returning then delivering better cross-city services is going to be tricky.

The current plans for the city centre post-LUAS BXD do not help in that regard, and need to be revised again to deliver direct routings with priority.

The Jarrett Walker led Network Review is the key driver for change, but all of the other elements are important.

More on-street priority delivers faster journey times, which means you can deliver more journeys throughout the day with the same resources, as indeed does reform of the fare system which would reduce dwell times.

With route tendering happening, branding is important and the operators need to become secondary to that.

But for me, the most important thing is that sufficient funding is made available to deliver this - capital funding for more buses, new ticketing equipment, and for road improvements, and additional current funding to facilitate overhaul of the fare structure.

That's been the get-out-of-jail card for too long - lack of government funds has stymied the expansion of the service.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 2:13pm

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann must not be forced to use the same colours as privates who could destroy their reputation.

Public operators should be a premium service and we should be proud to have them rather than doiwngrading the services to privates, you just have to see how much of a stink the private kick up about wanting to be included on bus stops of our public sercices, we should not give them free advertising.

At the end of the day privates should be like they were 30 years ago, restricted to stop them running down our public services.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 2:19pm

This theory that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have stopped the service improving is laughable, the problem has been underfunding and too much red type by the government, NTA and DOT who are putting privates before the public companies that each of us own, the companies want to improve transport but cannot do so when they are funded in the bargain basement.

devnull · 29-05-2017 2:22pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

This theory that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have stopped the service improving is laughable, the problem has been underfunding and too much red type by the government, NTA and DOT who are putting privates before the public companies that each of us own, the companies want to improve transport but cannot do so when they are funded in the bargain basement.

Last year when TFI issued new maps, I read a BE staff member saying they will never "bow down" to Transport for Ireland literature because that literature includes private operaors and BE staff will not tolerate the 307/308 being included on a TFI map and therefore won't use it and if it is the company will most likely simply produce their own map minus the private operators.

This is typical of the issues that exist, including the 307/308 on the map would be of benefit to public transport as a whole, however people involved in the company object to usin it because it's not in their own interests. It's a simple failure of public companies to do what they were set-up for, which was to avoid this kind of thing.

LeinsterDub · 29-05-2017 2:24pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Explain how? Privates will be required to deliver a defined service and a defined time with a defined fleet . Just as BÉ and DB are required.

How will standards drop?

Spanish Eyes · 29-05-2017 2:26pm

Who benefits from all this bickering and stalling.

Well it's not the bus users for sure.

Any messing around will not be tolerated or supported by bus users. The days of Unions running things for their members only are long gone now.

There might be a painful lead in period, but it will happen. Always sorted in the end.

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 2:35pm

lxflyer wrote: »

But for me, the most important thing is that sufficient funding is made available to deliver this - capital funding for more buses, new ticketing equipment, and for road improvements, and additional current funding to facilitate overhaul of the fare structure.

That's been the get-out-of-jail card for too long - lack of government funds has stymied the expansion of the service.

Well, the issue is really that the unit costs are too high. This is what really has to be dealt with. Otherwise, high frequency services and all-night services will never be viable, even if the funding were significantly increased (and 10 percent would be a 'significant' increase in government terms).

The funding and fares already quite high for the level of services that are actually being delivered. Demanding more money and then complaining when there hasn't been enough given can't be used to 'get out of jail' over and over again.

There are plenty ways to address the cost model at every level. But this has to be dealt with. The cost savings are the basic 'raw material' that you can use to extend and develop the service.

pjohnson · 29-05-2017 2:37pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann must not be forced to use the same colours as privates who could destroy their reputation.

Public operators should be a premium service and we should be proud to have them rather than doiwngrading the services to privates, you just have to see how much of a stink the private kick up about wanting to be included on bus stops of our public sercices, we should not give them free advertising.

At the end of the day privates should be like they were 30 years ago, restricted to stop them running down our public services.

Why are BE/the drivers so scared of tendering? If they provide the best service they would earn the tender fair and square.

Smithers19 · 29-05-2017 2:37pm

Anton - the service is underfunded, the simple fact is this, I note your cherry picked figures included DSP travel pass contribution, that cannot count and in addition BE runs many many rural routes that won't exist in other countries.

Bray Head · 29-05-2017 2:48pm

The map suggests that one of the BRT corridors will go from Terenure through Harold's Cross.

A label is misplaced however, implying that it will go through Rathmines.

devnull · 29-05-2017 2:49pm

Smithers19 Banned for off-topic posting, thread derailing and trolling.

Moderator

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 2:52pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Anton - the service is underfunded, the simple fact is this, I note your cherry picked figures included DSP travel pass contribution, that cannot count and in addition BE runs many many rural routes that won't exist in other countries.

This is untrue on many scores.

Firstly, the figures I have provided are not cherry picked.

Secondly, they do not include the DSP travel pass contribution (which is included as part of the 'operating turnover' for the business). The DSP travel pass contribution as you call it is not itemised in the annual report. The state funding I am referring to are the capital grant, the PSO contract payment, and the 'revenue grant'. These clearly do not have anything to do with the DSP travel pass contribution.

Thirdly, many other countries do in fact have rural bus services. They are not a uniquely Irish phenomenon.

I am still waiting for you to provide your list. You did say that the subsidy was low by international standards.

wordofwarning · 29-05-2017 2:59pm

devnull wrote: »

It is important, but at the same time modal share of public transport is poor in Dublin compared to a lot of other European cities, that is because the system is unfriendly, not very well integrated and very confusing for people to use, for current passengers of course more reliable services are the number one, but if we want to get cars off the road we need to make the system more friendly.

IMO it does not make a difference if everything is integrated, if the congestion stays the same. I have been to German, countries in Asia etc where the traffic is the same everyday. Rush hour means nothing, as taking a bus at 8am takes the same time as 11pm. So if you are on a bus, you know you can get off one and onto another seamlessly. It is amazing being on a bus, where you can look at a screen and see at the next stop you get another bus, which will arrive in 3 mins. When you get off the bus, it is there in 3 mins

There is limited utility having an integrated bus network, if your journey one day takes 20 mins and 50 mins the next.

Stephen15 · 29-05-2017 3:05pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann must not be forced to use the same colours as privates who could destroy their reputation.

Public operators should be a premium service and we should be proud to have them rather than doiwngrading the services to privates, you just have to see how much of a stink the private kick up about wanting to be included on bus stops of our public sercices, we should not give them free advertising.

At the end of the day privates should be like they were 30 years ago, restricted to stop them running down our public services.

No they if they do then The NTA will cancel their contracts and have contigency plan put in place this is how it works in many with far better pt than such as London, Berlin, Copenhagen and Warsaw.

Well in this country privates are the premium service. On the intercity Look at Aircoach, GoBus, Dublin Coach, Citylink etc. compared to BE. Even look at the Swords Express compared to DB service of the few examples where DB faces competition.

Private operators haven't run down the public companies. There have a number of improvements in the last thirty years such the introduction of leap cards, introduction of rtpi, increase in bus lanes, the building of the luas and extensions to the Dart. All brainchilds of the NTA and DoT not CIE. You obivously want to go backwards not forwards.

devnull · 29-05-2017 3:06pm

wordofwarning wrote: »

IMO it does not make a difference if everything is integrated, if the congestion stays the same. I have been to German, countries in Asia etc where the traffic is the same everyday. Rush hour means nothing, as taking a bus at 8am takes the same time as 11pm. So if you are on a bus, you know you can get off one and onto another seamlessly. It is amazing being on a bus, where you can look at a screen and see at the next stop you get another bus, which will arrive in 3 mins. When you get off the bus, it is there in 3 mins.

Integration doesn't just mean bus services, it means ticketing, information systems, journey planning, fares, everything being joined up rather than fragmented into different companies all whom are doing the same thing different ways when in-fact it would be much better if everyone was working in the same direction, which is the whole reason TFI was setup in the first place and the whole reason that TFL for example is so successfully.

Of course you need to tackle congestion as well as part of an over-arching plan but at the moment in Dublin you have three different transport operators who are contracted by the state who are all doing their own thing rather than looking at the picture together, they look at things from their own point of view rather from that of the public and that is what has to change and what I believe the NTA are trying to do with this plan.

There is limited utility having an integrated bus network, if your journey one day takes 20 mins and 50 mins the next.

I would expect things to settle down when the LUAS works are completed, these have added a lot of unpredictability to the city-center because of the various road closures and diversions which have effected traffic patterns a lot and caused greater congestion. The network redesign will also help with this although my fears are political and local pressure will prevent this.

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 3:12pm

I think you make a really good point.

The congestion is going to get worse. The simple reason for this is Luas Cross-City. Luas trains will get more frequent and longer and will cut across more traffic. This will slow everything down.

All that can really be done now is to manage this increased congestion.

In large part we are depending on the congestion forcing people onto public transport. This is a very negative and ultimately self-defeating way of dealing with the problem.

BRT and prioritisation doesn't really address the congestion either. It just reallocates the road space to give priority to the buses, which is a good thing, but doesn't add any new road capacity. Congestion will still definitely interfere with the schedules.

The major congestion-reducing measure in what is proposed will be cashless and queue-less buses. Originally this was only to be done on the BRT, and now it is to be done across the whole network. This is to be welcomed. This can be delivered quickly enough, and it will make an immediate difference to congestion, simply by reducing the time that the buses sit at stops and impedes other traffic. It will effectively create new road space.

n97 mini · 29-05-2017 3:17pm

Smithers19 wrote: »

Route tendering should be scrapped, it will lead to far lower standards as privates cut corner in the pursuit of profit.

Running of the Luas was put out to tender. Transdev run it. Standards are fine and the last tram leaves after the pubs have closed, not before.

spockety · 29-05-2017 4:05pm

Bray Head wrote: »

The map suggests that one of the BRT corridors will go from Terenure through Harold's Cross.

A label is misplaced however, implying that it will go through Rathmines.

Curious to see how they are going to manage that.. surely it's not wide enough the whole way for what they claim the BRT routes will look like... Segregated cycle lanes etc.

Riskymove · 29-05-2017 4:45pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Running of the Luas was put out to tender. Transdev run it. Standards are fine and the last tram leaves after the pubs have closed, not before.

It has been re-tendered for when the contract is up in 2019

I would presume that the contract requires certain standards and level of services

the same could be done for bus routes

LeinsterDub · 29-05-2017 5:11pm

RiskyKerrnigan wrote: »

There is no mention of the one thing that is actually required to expand and improve the service - extra funding. Any improvements can only be delivered by cuts elsewhere. Network Direct was designed to remove the waste so I'm not sure what they think they can do.

1 billion has been promised of which 700 million are new funds

antoinolachtnai · 29-05-2017 5:20pm

RiskyKerrnigan wrote: »

There is no mention of the one thing that is actually required to expand and improve the service - extra funding. Any improvements can only be delivered by cuts elsewhere. Network Direct was designed to remove the waste so I'm not sure what they think they can do.

You could also cut unit costs. There is plenty waste in DB apart from what was removed by Network Direct. Network Direct didn't really bring down unit costs at all. The most obvious thing to do would be to increase off-peak services. A quick calculation indicates are plenty drivers available to do this.

Zipppy · 29-05-2017 5:56pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Sounds good. Very short on detail/maps/timeframes and so on. But it's a start.

Realistically when would we expect work to commence on this?

Stevek101 · 29-05-2017 6:16pm

Zipppy wrote: »

Realistically when would we expect work to commence on this?

The network redesign is taking place right now. Tender awarded to Jarrett Walker + Associates. He's over next week speaking at this https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/reimagining-dublin-s-bus-network.aspx. Also the first public consultation is in the next fortnight.

The reconfigured network should be in place by mid 2018.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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