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Next Gen Leap Ticketing

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Comments

  • #32
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    bk wrote: »
    No I haven't. The issue you mention with a NFC topup not being applied is down to the epurse approach and NFC. Though having said that, if you touch the leap card back on the app, does it not apply the topup then? Very bad design if it doesn't, would be easy to handle that.

    With an account based system, it actually gets simpler and more robust. It would work something like this:

    - You tag on, the ticket machine records the transaction and gives it a Globally Unique Identifier (GUID) and perhaps creates a hash of the data.
    - When the ticket machine has a connection, it uploads the data to the servers, probably an asynchronous messaging queue system.
    - The backend system gets the data, checks that it is intact with the hash and does what it needs to do. It then informs the ticket machine that it is done.
    - If something fails, the ticket machine can just send the same transactions again. Duplicates are identified and discarded by the backend based on the GUID.

    This is pretty much how all financial IT systems work, stock trading, etc. It is a pretty solved problem.

    I'm not talking about duplication, I'm talking about the potential for losing transactions, which happens already on Leap. If there's a higher rate of running the data, it can lead to more data loss.

    Any work I've done with finance had all their transactions run over night. Which still fits the comment I gave, that they are probably better off not trying to do it whenever they can.


  • #33
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I'm not talking about duplication, I'm talking about the potential for losing transactions, which happens already on Leap. If there's a higher rate of running the data, it can lead to more data loss.

    Any work I've done with finance had all their transactions run over night. Which still fits the comment I gave, that they are probably better off not trying to do it whenever they can.

    I just gave a detailed explanation of how even with a 3g/4g connection, you wouldn't lose transactions.

    The ticket machine records the transaction and stores it locally in it's own storage. Whenever it has a connection, it tries to upload the transactions and it will keep trying until the server side acknowledges that it has received the transaction. Only when the server acknowledges that it has the transactions, would the ticket machine delete them from memory (you could even just mark them as delivered, but keep them for a few days/weeks on the ticket machine if it has enough storage space, just in case).

    The only way you would lose transactions would be if the ticket machine died for some reason before it could upload the transactions. Of course that would also be true if you did it at night in the depot. Though if you wait until night, you risk losing even more transactions if the machine dies, versus a model where you are uploading every 15 minutes, etc.

    BTW I'm well aware that a lot of financial work happens overnight as part of batch and cron jobs. Though most transactions actually get recorded as they happen and stock trading happens in milliseconds. The overnight work tends to be report generation, reconciliation's, etc.

    The overnight work is more old banking style IT model, running ancient Cobalt apps running on AS400's! A lot of finance is moving to as it happens model. I'm amazed every time I withdraw money with my Revolut card and I get a notification of the withdrawal on my phone before the money even finishes coming out of the machine! The world is changing fast.

    I'd suspect the new Leap model will be more as it happens, of course not milliseconds, but within a few minutes. Transactions seem to be done within 30 minutes with Oyster in London. Of course there will be overnight cronjobs, creating reports, auditing, reconciling daily caps, etc. But there really no reason why the ticket machines can't be sending the data when they can. There are already updating their location for RTPI every few minutes. Why not send Leap transactions at the same time.


  • #34
    kalych
    Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭kalych


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I'm not talking about duplication, I'm talking about the potential for losing transactions, which happens already on Leap. If there's a higher rate of running the data, it can lead to more data loss.

    Any work I've done with finance had all their transactions run over night. Which still fits the comment I gave, that they are probably better off not trying to do it whenever they can.

    Irish banks now do multiple batches a day for even your regular current account transactions internally and interbank. Some banks do it in real time. To say that this leads to data loss is just not right in our day and age.


  • #35
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    bk wrote: »

    I don't understand what you mean?

    They were not talking about two people on the same vehicle at the same time as you interpreted.

    They were suggesting a fraud where you have a physical Leap and a contactless on the same Leap account / cap and split these between two people. This requires them to never try use both at once


  • #36
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    L1011 wrote: »
    They were not talking about two people on the same vehicle at the same time as you interpreted.

    They were suggesting a fraud where you have a physical Leap and a contactless on the same Leap account / cap and split these between two people. This requires them to never try use both at once

    Yes, I realise that now and you are right, I can't think of any reasonable way around that fraud.

    The capping will have to be per card, actually per "device", since you can nowadays have the same card on multplie devices (e.g. iPhone and Apple Watch).

    A pity, I hope they still leave you link multiple cards to one account, so at least you can still view your overall spending across cards, etc.


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  • #37
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,326 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    coylemj wrote: »
    If the Leap card was used simply as a link to your account, there's no reason why they couldn't let you link any contactless card to do the same thing so most people wouldn't need to carry a Leap card at all. You'd just tap your (e.g. VISA) contactless card and your Leap account would be docked the fare.
    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    You underestimate how many Leap users are children, tourists, people who don't have bank accounts.

    I'm not saying that the Leap card should be scrapped, just suggesting that people who have a contactless card could be allowed to link that card to a Leap acccount. One less card to carry with you.


  • #38
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    coylemj wrote: »
    I'm not saying that the Leap card should be scrapped, just suggesting that people who have a contactless card could be allowed to link that card to a Leap acccount. One less card to carry with you.

    I think we all agree that any contactless cards (including the likes of Apple Pay, etc.) should work without needing to register an account.

    Like a German tourist who arrives into Dublin Airport with a Visa contactless card On their iPhone should be able to use that to board the 16 without first registering a Leap account.

    Just like it works for us when we fly to London. You can just use your contactless card in your pocket with no setup.

    Great frictionless use for tourists, etc.

    The thing about registering your cards with an account was initially about being able to benefit from capping across multiple cards and devices. But I now realise that would be wide open to fraud. So a non starter.

    I’d say it could still be useful to register your cards with your account so you could track journeys and expenditure. A nice feature, but probably not a most have.


  • #39
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »
    Brilliant so in the next year we may finally get new ticket machines, account based leap and cotactless payments, maybe the 90 minute flat fare. Maybe even some 24/7 routes.

    Sounds like we might finally be fixing some of the more issues with buses here and get a proper modern bus service :)

    Any rumours on what the ticket machine might be?

    Sadly,it appears that the Authority is remaining with Parkeon/Wayfafrer for the forseeable future.

    I'm not certain that Parkeon has kept pace with the speed of development in the industry,but the "sitting tenant" principle appears to comfort the NTA this time.

    My favourite would be the "Ticketer" system,which I believe offers far more flexibility and innovation,in addition to being unafraid to try something new and see if it works !!

    https://www.ticketer.co.uk/case-studies/ ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #40
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Sadly,it appears that the Authority is remaining with Parkeon/Wayfafrer for the forseeable future.

    I'd assume (and hope) the Wayfarer 6, rather then the Wayfarer 200?

    The Wayfarer 200 looks like a barely updated specs of the current TGX150's

    On the other hand the Wayfarer 6 looks ok, 1GHz ARM CPU, 1GB RAM, 64GB Flash, supports Android, Linux or Windows. It is still a lot less powerful then the smartphone in your pocket, but at least it is using relatively modern tech and should be ok for modern ticketing.

    Ironically moving to account based ticketing and flat fare will most likely require less processing power then the current more localised setup.

    The Axio Touch Validator's look nice too. I wonder might we get those too?

    I agree that the Ticketer looks great and used by Aircoach :)


  • #41
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Sadly,it appears that the Authority is remaining with Parkeon/Wayfafrer for the forseeable future.

    I'm not certain that Parkeon has kept pace with the speed of development in the industry,but the "sitting tenant" principle appears to comfort the NTA this time.

    My favourite would be the "Ticketer" system,which I believe offers far more flexibility and innovation,in addition to being unafraid to try something new and see if it works !!

    https://www.ticketer.co.uk/case-studies/ ;)

    Ticketer is good and an excellent modular system, but at the present moment it does not support any kind of external validator being hooked up to it which was no doubt one of the must haves as part of the tender that was issued.


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  • #42
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    devnull wrote: »
    Ticketer is good and an excellent modular system, but at the present moment it does not support any kind of external validator being hooked up to it which was no doubt one of the must haves as part of the tender that was issued.

    As if on cue,Ticketer announce a remote validator system.....:)

    Transdev in the North East of England are the initial user.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #43
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    As if on cue,Ticketer announce a remote validator system.....:)

    Transdev in the North East of England are the initial user.

    Where did you read about this Alek?

    Since the tender has already been awarded and it didn't exist at the time of being advertised it's going to be too late for here unfortunately, but I'm curious about what such machines look like and the features of them.


  • #44
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    devnull wrote: »
    Where did you read about this Alek?

    Since the tender has already been awarded and it didn't exist at the time of being advertised it's going to be too late for here unfortunately, but I'm curious about what such machines look like and the features of them.

    It's Transdev,Harrogate & District which is introducing the new system as part of a major revamp of it's operations...

    http://www.harrogatebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=2651

    https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C4D22AQH5hBB47T7SzA/feedshare-shrink_8192/0?e=1561593600&v=beta&t=9c-W6jRabtWlBn-3U_gVJoPvFSEAoQQKtAfL-bZCP-4


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #45
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I was just watching a video about Apple Pay being rolled out in New York and I just realised Apple Pay has a very cool new feature.

    I had assumed that to use Apple Pay on public transport, you'd first have the authorise the card with PIN Code/FaceID/TocuhID first.

    But no, it seems that Apple have a new feature called "Express Transit", just hold the phone/watch to the reader and it works without needing to first open/authorise it. You don't even need to have the phone screen on or unlocked!

    Cool, that would make using it even more convenient.

    Given that the NY system is being rolled out by the same company who are doing the Leap Next gen ticketing, I really hope they bring this great feature to Ireland too.


  • #46
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    And now this same feature is also coming to London *:

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/30/18645394/apple-pay-express-transit-london-tfl-tube-support-uk

    Check out the video in the above article to see how seriously fast it is. That would be great to have here.

    * It isn't surprising that this feature is also coming to London, as Cubic is the company who are doing it in New York and also handle ticketing in London. Which seems like good news for us as they are the ones doing Leap here.


  • #47
    cherryghost
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,132 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Ah yeah, I see those in Japan. Thoroughly needed over there though :)


  • #48
    ffocused
    Registered Users Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭ffocused


    bk wrote: »
    But no, it seems that Apple have a new feature called "Express Transit", just hold the phone/watch to the reader and it works without needing to first open/authorise it. You don't even need to have the phone screen on or unlocked!

    The express transit feature is an option you can enable now on N26 cards registered with Apple Pay. No option for it with my UB card yet.

    It would be a bit of a trek if i wanted to test it though.

    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207958


  • #49
    sdevine89
    Registered Users Posts: 567 ✭✭✭sdevine89


    Was just coming to post about the 'Express Pay' articles. So hopefully we will get somewhere close to contactless at some point in 2020 it seems?


  • #50
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭markpb


    sdevine89 wrote: »
    Was just coming to post about the 'Express Pay' articles. So hopefully we will get somewhere close to contactless at some point in 2020 it seems?

    I'd be shocked. Contactless will presumably need new readers at at Luas stops, all Dart and suburban stations and all on Dublin Bus and GAI buses. It will probably also need a new back office system. Those will take time to tender, procure, install and test. I haven't heard anything about a tender for any of that so I'd say 2020 is extremely unlikely.


  • #51
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    markpb wrote: »
    I'd be shocked. Contactless will presumably need new readers at at Luas stops, all Dart and suburban stations and all on Dublin Bus and GAI buses. It will probably also need a new back office system. Those will take time to tender, procure, install and test. I haven't heard anything about a tender for any of that so I'd say 2020 is extremely unlikely.

    Well Cubic were already awarded the contract:
    https://www.transportforireland.ie/nta-appoint-contractor-for-mobile-ticketing-system/

    Also I don't think it will require new Luas and DART ticket machines. It is fundamentally using the same technology as leap cards RFID/NFC. But yes, it would require updated back end systems.


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  • #52
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭markpb


    bk wrote: »
    Well Cubic were already awarded the contract

    I don't think that's related to contactless ticketing:
    Cubic will be responsible for providing a mobile phone application that will enable public transport customers to purchase a range of tickets through their phone and be able to hold and present the ticket on the phone.
    bk wrote: »
    Also I don't think it will require new Luas and DART ticket machines. It is fundamentally using the same technology as leap cards RFID/NFC. But yes, it would require updated back end systems.

    It might be the same hardware but totally new firmware at the very least. And that's assuming that the existing hardware is PTS certified (which is probably isn't). The current back-end was built entirely for Leapcard schemes, it won't be an update to make it support contactless, it will likely be an entirely new backend running in parallel. That was the way TfL approached it in London so it would probably be the same here. Rolling out contactless here will be an expensive, long running project - it's not going to happen overnight.


  • #53
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    markpb wrote: »
    I don't think that's related to contactless ticketing:

    Their press release says:
    Cubic’s mobile ticketing solution enables multimodal transportation through an integrated user interface. The mobile ticketing app enables travelers to easily purchase tickets and manage their online accounts. Cubic’s world-class mobile ticketing system is deployed and being rolled out in several major cities including Los Angeles, Washington D.C., Chicago, New York, Cologne, Germany and Brisbane, Australia.

    The mobile ticketing system they have deployed in the above list of countries is support for apple pay and google pay and the above mentioned Transit Express feature. Notably in London and New York.

    You are correct in that it doesn't say 100%. It could be some rubbish QR based app, but I'd hope not.
    markpb wrote: »
    It might be the same hardware but totally new firmware at the very least. And that's assuming that the existing hardware is PTS certified (which is probably isn't). The current back-end was built entirely for Leapcard schemes, it won't be an update to make it support contactless, it will likely be an entirely new backend running in parallel. That was the way TfL approached it in London so it would probably be the same here. Rolling out contactless here will be an expensive, long running project - it's not going to happen overnight.

    Well we have gone from all new hardware, to just a firmware update!

    I agree it won't be overnight and that it will require a new backend system and will likely take a few years to complete.

    And so what? Either way they need to move with the times and it needs to be done. I'm delighted that we are finally seeing movement on this.


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