Armstrong Cup 2018-19

Tim Harding · 22-10-2018 11:07pm

Joedryan wrote: »

Is there an up to date league table somewhere?

No, that's what we have been complaining about.

The table at
http://www.chessleague.net/chessorg/leinster/table.php?org=1&lid=101
is just the same tonight as it was when I made my previous post.

Some of the missing results can be found above but we still don't know about the nine Kilkenny games, and two of the Gonzaga A v B games are due to be played this week. Also presumably the last Balbriggan v Benildus game.

Joedryan · 22-10-2018 11:34pm

Tim Harding wrote: »

Joedryan wrote: »

Is there an up to date league table somewhere?

No, that's what we have been complaining about.

The table at
http://www.chessleague.net/chessorg/leinster/table.php?org=1&lid=101
is just the same tonight as it was when I made my previous post.

Some of the missing results can be found above but we still don't know about the nine Kilkenny games, and two of the Gonzaga A v B games are due to be played this week. Also presumably the last Balbriggan v Benildus game.

Can the team captains submit results to update that table in real time?

mikhail · 22-10-2018 11:46pm

Joedryan wrote: »

Can the team captains submit results to update that table in real time?

No, the backend is a complicated offline excel/visual basic package Peter Scott put together a good few years ago.

Something more responsive with a simple interface would be a nice upgrade, but finding someone with the skills and time and motivation to write and maintain it (at least until the bugs are worked out) is not trivial. I thought about suggesting a wiki-based approach, but it'd lack functionality beyond a live table and I suspect it'd require a couple of fairly active editors to keep it going. The current system handles ratings files input/output and other functions too, and I'd rather have a slowly updating table than heap work on the leagues controllers or duplicate work.

Joedryan · 22-10-2018 11:55pm

mikhail wrote: »

Joedryan wrote: »

Can the team captains submit results to update that table in real time?

No, the backend is a complicated offline excel/visual basic package Peter Scott put together a good few years ago.

Something more responsive with a simple interface would be a nice upgrade, but finding someone with the skills and time and motivation to write and maintain it (at least until the bugs are worked out) is not trivial. I thought about suggesting a wiki-based approach, but it'd lack functionality beyond a live table and I suspect it'd require a couple of fairly active editors to keep it going. The current system handles ratings files input/output and other functions too, and I'd rather have a slowly updating table than heap work on the leagues controllers or duplicate work.

I had something going an odd 15 years back running of a Microsoft ASP page,

these days I'd probably do it different and add in a bit more security to prevent anarchists from hacking it, but its not that hard really

mikhail · 23-10-2018 12:19am

Joedryan wrote: »

I had something going an odd 15 years back running of a Microsoft ASP page,

these days I'd probably do it different and add in a bit more security to prevent anarchists from hacking it, but its not that hard really

You wouldn't happen to be at a loose end, would you?

Joedryan · 23-10-2018 12:41am

mikhail wrote: »

Joedryan wrote: »

I had something going an odd 15 years back running of a Microsoft ASP page,

these days I'd probably do it different and add in a bit more security to prevent anarchists from hacking it, but its not that hard really

You wouldn't happen to be at a loose end, would you?

up to my ears at the min but this is not a particularly difficult effort

LCU feel free to get on to me if you wish

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 23-10-2018 12:59am

Gonzaga A 5-2 Gonzaga B (Collins vs O'Donnell to play this week)

Gonzaga B 1-0 Balbriggan (late tactic in my game from a worse position)

Flimsy table update:
Trinity 11/16
Elm Mount 9.5/16
Gonzaga A 9/15
Bray 9/15
Gonzaga B 9/16
Blanch 8.5/16
Benildus 7/15
Balbriggan 6.5/16
Rathmines 6.5/16
Dublin 4/8
Dun Laoghaire 3.5/16
Kilkenny 2.5/7

Kilkenny CC was away on their club trip (to Germany) last week while Dublin were at the ECC so presumably that game will happen soon - maybe this Saturday if neither team is going in numbers to Limerick. De Verdier vs Quinn is this Thursday I believe. Healy vs Nolan (delayed for the ECC) should be soon too bringing us up to date.

sodacat11 · 23-10-2018 7:48am

I am no expert on computers but it beggars belief that the chess league site cannot be updated by the captains of the teams as soon as the matches finish.
If the results were sent in to the Controller by carrier pigeon and then posted in envelopes with stamps to each club we would have the results sooner than we get them on the chess league site now (and that is not an exaggeration).

mikhail · 23-10-2018 9:12am

sodacat11 wrote: »

I am no expert on computers but it beggars belief that the chess league site cannot be updated by the captains of the teams as soon as the matches finish.
If the results were sent in to the Controller by carrier pigeon and then posted in envelopes with stamps to each club we would have the results sooner than we get them on the chess league site now (and that is not an exaggeration).

I'm sure they'll welcome your offer of help.

sodacat11 · 23-10-2018 1:40pm

mikhail wrote: »

I'm sure they'll welcome your offer of help.

I will supply the pigeons.

Past_Pawn_99 · 23-10-2018 7:36pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

I will supply the pigeons.

I've got the stamps

Danville · 24-10-2018 2:05am

Dublin 0-Kilkenny 3, 5 Games yet to be played.

Joedryan · 24-10-2018 10:42pm

Danville wrote: »

Dublin 0-Kilkenny 3, 5 Games yet to be played.

How come 5 games have not been played?

sodacat11 · 24-10-2018 10:59pm

Joedryan wrote: »

How come 5 games have not been played?

Dublin only have three chess sets.

mikhail · 25-10-2018 2:24am

Joedryan wrote: »

How come 5 games have not been played?

Dublin had a team at the European Chess Team Cup.

sodacat11 · 25-10-2018 9:27am

Where exactly do Trinity play their home games and is there any free parking in the area on a Saturday afternoon?

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 25-10-2018 9:44am

Round 1: Gonzaga B 2.5-5.5 Gonzaga A

Tim Harding · 25-10-2018 10:19am

Trinity home venue is room 1.18b in the Biosciences building (only about 2 years old) on 152-160 Pearse Street. This is a better room than last season.
I believe there is free parking on Saturdays in the area; another regular poster may clarify. Looking at an old message in our Whatsapp group, somebody said it's behind Goldsmith Hall; take turn by the Ginger Man pub. But don't take my word for it as I go by bus.

Tim Harding · 25-10-2018 10:37am

mikhail wrote: »

Dublin had a team at the European Chess Team Cup.

But only half their Armstrong regulars played the ECC. I prefer Sodacat's explanation.

Tim Harding · 25-10-2018 2:17pm

In my opinion far too many postponements are being permitted by the League and games played in advance are not ideal either as it's a much better experience playing the whole match on the same (scheduled) day.

In any other league I ever played in, clubs just fielded whoever they could on the day and if somebody was away, too bad. In the Armstrong in the 1980s, postponements were allowed for people representing Ireland in olympiads and that was it. I am not sure when or why the present lax system developed.

The rule says:

7.7 Subject to agreement between the respective team captains, games may be played in advance of the scheduled date. If a team wishes to postpone games in a match, the approval of the divisional controller must be obtained in advance, which approval shall be given only in extenuating circumstances.

For the second year in a row, we are in danger of the ICU being unable to submit the Armstrong round 1 and 2 results to FIDE in time for inclusion in the November list. This affects anyone from Ireland who plays in the league and will be playing a rated game abroad in November.
All outstanding games would need to be played this Saturday, at latest,and the results promptly confirmed by both captains to the division controller, so that he can pass on the results to the ICU rating officer not later than Tuesday 30 October.

Let's take a look at the games still not reported on the LCU site.

Round 1 (supposed to be played on 29 Sept.), one missing result from the Kilkenny-Bray match: Quinn v De Verdier. Neither of them were at either the olympiad or the ECC.
So has this game been played or not? What were the "extenuating circumstances" that meant the division controller agreed for it to be postponed?

Gonzaga A v B was affected by the Millfield junior event and two players being away for the Olympiad, but the match has been completed now and the result is on the LCU site.

Round 2. St Benildus v Balbriggan. John Healy v Sean Nolan. Healy was at the ECC so fair enough - but if not played yet, it should be played at latest this Saturday. (Balbriggan matches are always on Saturday.) Benildus were at the ECC but still managed to play seven of the games as scheduled.

Round 2. Gonzaga A v Trinity. This match has finished 4-4 after the board 2 game was played last Saturday. That was delayed because Ioana Miller was at the Olympiad as women's captain, fair enough.

Round 2. Kilkenny v Dublin. Scheduled for 13 October but five of Dublin's ten declared players were at the ECC; so postponement is reasonable - but to what date? We are told unofficially that three games have been played. So teams must have been declared before that could happen. There is no information online so we don't know which games were played or which ones are outstanding. Will they play on Saturday?

In all, Kilkenny have 9 results holding up the rating. Does anybody from that club read this board and can help out here? Or one of the Dublin players?

sodacat11 · 25-10-2018 3:27pm

Tim Harding wrote: »

In my opinion far too many postponements are being permitted by the League and games played in advance are not ideal either as it's a much better experience playing the whole match on the same (scheduled) day.

In any other league I ever played in, clubs just fielded whoever they could on the day and if somebody was away, too bad. In the Armstrong in the 1980s, postponements were allowed for people representing Ireland in olympiads and that was it. I am not sure when or why the present lax system developed.

Another annoying trend is this dubious practice of players agreeing draws in the Armstrong without playing a game at all. One Kilkenny player used to draw an amazing amount of games every season and I'm not even sure if he was even in the country for half of them. Another I.M , who shall remain nameless, is also guilty of this carry on which not only distorts the league table but also gives completely unmerited rating points to lower rated players. One player I heard about has gained at least 20 rating points in the past twelve months through these "non games".

Tim Harding · 25-10-2018 4:13pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Another annoying trend is this dubious practice of players agreeing draws in the Armstrong without playing a game at all. One Kilkenny player used to draw an amazing amount of games every season and I'm not even sure if he was even in the country for half of them. Another I.M , who shall remain nameless, is also guilty of this carry on which not only distorts the league table but also gives completely unmerited rating points to lower rated players. One player I heard about has gained at least 20 rating points in the past twelve months through these "non games".

That of course is another abuse arising from allowing advance or postponed games. I regret I have allowed my name to be used in this way a couple of times to save my club from fielding a weakened team against Gonzaga (not this year) - but the second time I only regained a few rating points I had conceded the first time.

Joedryan · 25-10-2018 7:10pm

I never liked the games being postponed or played in advance in the Armstrong, it kind of messes up the whole feeling of the team and the match.
Interestingly in the Catalan leagues points are awarded for the team winning the match. e.g. 5.5-4.5 win would be just as good as a 9-1 thrashing and all games are played on the day.
This leads to some interesting scenarios with players running around frantically looking at the other boards to see if they should agree a draw or push for the win.

cdeb · 26-10-2018 7:03am

Could never understand the logic of that tbh. A 9-1 win is clearly better than 5.5-4.5, and game points makes the 9-1 interesting until the end too.

10 boards is a lot though. Nigs on being captain for that

Joedryan · 26-10-2018 6:43pm

cdeb wrote: »

Could never understand the logic of that tbh. A 9-1 win is clearly better than 5.5-4.5, and game points makes the 9-1 interesting until the end too.

10 boards is a lot though. Nigs on being captain for that

I used to think the same, but it does introduce the element of team strategy to matches, instead of every man/woman for themselves.

cdeb · 26-10-2018 7:01pm

I think you can be strategic with game points as well though. I've put out plenty of unusual line-ups in my time based on trying to maximise points.

I think also if the last two games don't count for anything because the score is already, say, 4½-1½, then that does become the case of every man/woman to himself that you're trying to avoid. But with game points, those last two games are still of equal importance to the team.

I can kind of understand match points in Swiss tournaments like the Olympiad/European Club Cup, but in an all-play-all league, game points make far more sense.

In my opinion, of course.

Joedryan · 26-10-2018 7:37pm

Strategic with line ups is one thing, but with match points the "strategy" can literally change every 10 mins depending on the ongoing games.
Players are allowed to consult team captains on draw offers which means the team captain really needs to be a strong player with a good idea of what is going on in every board.
Better if the players can keep an eye themselves.
Its just different, I dont think either system is better or worse than the other.

cdeb · 26-10-2018 7:40pm

Joedryan wrote: »

Players are allowed to consult team captains on draw offers which means the team captain really needs to be a strong player with a good idea of what is going on in every board.

This happens in the Leinster leagues too though? Granted, more on the last day of the leagues than every week. But when it happens, it's with far more detail, because it's one thing judging a match result, but it's another to judge a series of game results.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 26-10-2018 7:43pm

Tim Harding wrote: »

Let's take a look at the games still not reported on the LCU site.

Round 1 (supposed to be played on 29 Sept.), one missing result from the Kilkenny-Bray
Gonzaga A v B was affected by the Millfield junior event and two players being away for the Olympiad, but the match has been completed now and the result is on the LCU site.

Round 2. St Benildus v Balbriggan. John Healy v Sean Nolan. Healy was at the ECC so fair enough - but if not played yet, it should be played at latest this Saturday. (Balbriggan matches are always on Saturday.) Benildus were at the ECC but still managed to play seven of the games as scheduled.

Round 2. Gonzaga A v Trinity. This match has finished 4-4 after the board 2 game was played last Saturday. That was delayed because Ioana Miller was at the Olympiad as women's captain, fair enough.

Round 2. Kilkenny v Dublin. Scheduled for 13 October but five of Dublin's ten declared players were at the ECC; so postponement is reasonable - but to what date? We are told unofficially that three games have been played. So teams must have been declared before that could happen. There is no information online so we don't know which games were played or which ones are outstanding. Will they play on Saturday?

In all, Kilkenny have 9 results holding up the rating. Does anybody from that club read this board and can help out here? Or one of the Dublin players?

Round 1 games are now complete. Draw in the Quinn vs MDV game. League table updated.

Just awaiting the Healy-Nolan and KK-Dub games for round 2.

Having updated some results - I can confirm what Cdeb said previously: that the results update automatically and instantly once both captains submit matching team sheets. If they don’t match, the league controller emails the captains to confirm.

The delays are likely due to captains not having time to submit their scoresheets or mismatching scoresheets. (The system to update results, having never done it before this season, is very easy to use and takes 2 minutes).

cdeb · 26-10-2018 7:48pm

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Having updated some results - I can confirm what Cdeb said previously: that the results update automatically and instantly once both captains submit matching team sheets. If they don’t match, the league controller emails the captains to confirm.

I'll correct that - you can update once one captain submits the result. There is a check then once the second half of the scoresheet comes in, but if it's the same, then the system just confirms that fact and updates nothing.

Armstrong Cup 2018-19

Comments