Home heating automation

deezell · 13-03-2019 12:30pm

snowstreams wrote: »

Does anyone know if there is a smart cyclinder thermostat?
I have solar water heating system, but in winter or on some cloudy days i need to heat it with oil etc and so I have a thermostat in the middle part of the tank for that.

I was wondering if there is a smart version of these stats? so i could control the temp on an app etc.
I know it would need a tado,nest hub etc to control it but is there even any stats like that around, I couldnt find any online.

This is what I have at the moment.
https://www.compass-plumbing.co.uk/everflo-mechanical-dual-cylinder-thermostat

A Sonoff Th10 smart temperature relay will do the job, equipped with the DS18B20 insert sensor, -55℃ to +125℃, will replace your cylinder stat and switch the live voltage for the boiler. The Sonoff app will let you set trigger temperatures and even times.
This is the sensor
https://sonoff.itead.cc/en/products/accessories/ds18b20
This is the relay
https://sonoff.itead.cc/en/products/sonoff/sonoff-th

Cheap as chips on Amazon.

snowstreams · 13-03-2019 2:56pm

Thats perfect, thanks Deezell.

I see this set going cheap on amazon.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Controller-ds18b20-Temperature-Humidity-Waterproof-sonoff-th10/dp/B07L915X8S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1552485160&sr=8-2&keywords=DS18B20+TH+Sensor

I might buy some of the air thermostats too for the house too.

deezell · 13-03-2019 3:21pm

snowstreams wrote: »

Thats perfect, thanks Deezell.

I see this set going cheap on amazon.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Controller-ds18b20-Temperature-Humidity-Waterproof-sonoff-th10/dp/B07L915X8S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1552485160&sr=8-2&keywords=DS18B20+TH+Sensor

I might buy some of the air thermostats too for the house too.

Go for it. They lack an actual physical manual control, or a display, but you can set them on the app, use Alexa ect, to query and set. Make your own smart heating setup using IFTTT rules, no limit really.

snowstreams · 13-03-2019 3:23pm

deezell wrote: »

Go for it. They lack an actual physical manual control, or a display, but you can set them on the app, use Alex's ect, to query and set. Make your own smart heating setup using IFTTT rules, no limit really.

Yeah it looks good. I only have hue and alexa at the moment.
But Im looking to add more smart devices one step at a time.

I'll go for a big heating upgrade when i get a nest or something like that free from Electric Ireland on a contract.
But this looks perfect for my biggest issue!

garo · 13-03-2019 6:27pm

Thanks again for the detailed reply. Now to find a way to get this done for cheaper than the EI quote! If someone will install the OT bridge off the bat that's great. Otherwise I am happy to do that bit of DIY once the system is installed.

deezell wrote: »

Sounds like he intends installing a 3 port valve,
...
This being the case I see no reason why the boiler signalling can't be by OT via the proprietary OT bridge. All other wiring from the relays to the 3 port valve will remain the same, including the pump, but the SL from the valve combined with HW On from the HW relay will not be connected to the boiler, as the OT signal from the OT bridge will fire it in either case.
Note; as I stated in my previous reply, the boiler will be fired either by any combination of zone SLs to the boiler SL input, or else by an OT data signal, generated by the controller, and which will request firing for either zone, with the heating profile and modulation trimmed to suit the request. Its not possible to combine these normally. It may be necessary to program the OT to infirm it of the particular plan, ie, HW priority, CH priority and so on. A bit of reading up on The Evo OT implementation maybe.

deezell · 13-03-2019 10:14pm

garo wrote: »

Thanks again for the detailed reply. Now to find a way to get this done for cheaper than the EI quote! If someone will install the OT bridge off the bat that's great. Otherwise I am happy to do that bit of DIY once the system is installed.

That would be the best course. The information regarding the setup of the wireless OT bridge is a bit confusing. It mentions the bridge replaces the bdr91 relay, this is the standard relay which sends switched live or closed contacts to fire the boiler. As your new system is zoned Y plan, your installer has specified 2 relays, one for HW and one for CH. This is normal, and in s or y plan the relays don't directly signal the boiler, but instead operate the zone valve(s), two 2 port or one 3 port, and it's the relays in these which combine to fire the boiler.
It seems at first glance in the OT bridge instructions that the OT bridge replaces a bdr91 relay, which seems to imply that there is no zone valve switching required. This would be the case with a HW on demand boiler, and no motorised valves. Perhaps its possible to have both relays operational in addition to the OT bridge, so the combined actions of all 3 will fire the boiler and operate the diverter valve.
If you are contemplating OT connection, make sure your new boiler is on the list of proven boilers for Evohome OT connection.

legend99 · 13-03-2019 10:33pm

deezell wrote: »

legend99 wrote: »

Hi
Apologies for asking - possibly has been asked before but 78 pages is quite a lot to review!

I live in a 3-story house build circa 2002. We have a gas boiler which drives the rads and hot water. The house has three thermostats (one in hallway, one in first floor landing and one in second floor landing). There is then a cylinder thermostat on the cylinder........All that I have to control the current set up is the Apt Imm24 timer clock. No zone control, no 5/2 control nothing. Either on or off via the timer. I had a quick look at the wiring in it and there appears to be 2 live brown wires coming in, 2 neutral blue wires and one black.

If you want to remove the apt imm24, all you need to do is connect any wires from Live in to Live out. If the blue wires are bound in the N terminal, keep them joined. If the black wire is tapped into either Live in or Live out, keep it joined to this. If there is a single wire only fro Live out then safe to assume this is spliced later to the all stats and valves. If there is an extra wire (black?) connected to Live out this may be to the cylinder stat or one of the stats. Disconnect and see which of the 4 motorised valves turns off. The only advantage of doing all this is that you may be able to find the direct live to the cylinder stat independent of the wall stats, and locate the ext box here for HW timing.

Firstly you are a gentleman and a scholar for taking the time to reply. And looking at the thread your knowledge of this stuff seems limitless! (Is it a hobby or are you a pro?)

Anyway, I took my Imm24 clock off the wall. I have two blue neutrals in the neutral connector 3; I have two brown (I assume live) in connector 2; I have one red wire then inserted in connector 1. So from what you're saying this would imply that the red wire is what connects to all 4 thermostats? So does that mean that if any of the 4 requires heat that the signal is coming down that black wire - or do I have my understanding assways? Would love to understand it lol.
It also brings me back to the requirement to have to have that switch set to permanently on and use the Stats to control everything? Struggling with that as it goes against the grain.....

garo · 13-03-2019 11:14pm

You are a legend! Thanks. I am going to read up a bit on the Evohome OT bridge before taking the plunge. Now that EI told me I didn't need to be their customer, I can take my time to decide.

You are right about the OpenTherm bridge removing the need for a second BDR91. So fitting the OT bridge right from the start will save money. The Evohome shop page here: https://theevohomeshop.co.uk/content/21-What-is-OpenTherm-and-why-use-Honeywell-evohome-with-it seems to suggest the OT bridge connects directly to the boiler. So it will take a bit of research to figure out how the valve comes into play here if at all.
I assume that I only connect CH to OT bridge as HW cylinder doesn't really need it.

The other problem is that this page here: https://www.myboiler.com/opentherm-capable-boilers/ lists the Ideal Logic+System as OpenTherm compatible but not the Ideal Logic System which EI was proposing to install.

deezell wrote: »

That would be the best course. The information regarding the setup of the wireless OT bridge is a bit confusing. It mentions the bridge replaces the bdr91 relay, this is the standard relay which sends switched live or closed contacts to fire the boiler. As your new system is zoned Y plan, your installer has specified 2 relays, one for HW and one for CH. This is normal, and in s or y plan the relays don't directly signal the boiler, but instead operate the zone valve(s), two 2 port or one 3 port, and it's the relays in these which combine to fire the boiler.
It seems at first glance in the OT bridge instructions that the OT bridge replaces a bdr91 relay, which seems to imply that there is no zone valve switching required. This would be the case with a HW on demand boiler, and no motorised valves. Perhaps its possible to have both relays operational in addition to the OT bridge, so the combined actions of all 3 will fire the boiler and operate the diverter valve.
If you are contemplating OT connection, make sure your new boiler is on the list of proven boilers for Evohome OT connection.

deezell · 14-03-2019 12:33am

legend99 wrote: »

Firstly you are a gentleman and a scholar for taking the time to reply. And looking at the thread your knowledge of this stuff seems limitless! (Is it a hobby or are you a pro?)

Anyway, I took my Imm24 clock off the wall. I have two blue neutrals in the neutral connector 3; I have two brown (I assume live) in connector 2; I have one red wire then inserted in connector 1. So from what you're saying this would imply that the red wire is what connects to all 4 thermostats? So does that mean that if any of the 4 requires heat that the signal is coming down that black wire - or do I have my understanding assways? Would love to understand it lol.
It also brings me back to the requirement to have to have that switch set to permanently on and use the Stats to control everything? Struggling with that as it goes against the grain.....

I'm a pro, not in this field, but tech is tech, I can't resist!
Your assessment of the imm24 wiring is correct, I'm assuming the unswitched mains goes in then out to the valves/ boiler, (brown and blue pairs), and the timed Switched Live, (black, or is it red?) goes to the stats and from there to operate the valves, whose internal relays are supplied with the unswitched mains live which is directed by any valve relay to fire the boiler.
The reason you leave the clock on permanently is because the smart stats have their own timer schedule, so will close their zone valve either when set temperature is reached, or when the schedule turns off the heat for a period. (This is achieved with Tado by dropping the programmed temperature of a time slot below the likely residual temperature of the zone, say 15° between 22:00 and 7:00 is effectively off, as the zone won't cool that much overnight). You can progam the temperature as low as you like, but 15-16° is a good base in case it get extremely cold. As the cylinder stat is most likely also supplied by the old timer SL, this will now be permanently on, with the cylinder stat cutting in and out to keep the HW topped up. With a modern fully insulated cylinder, this is all you need, as there's no great saving to be made by having timed off periods for the HW, it just puts off the heating required to restore the temperature of the HW in the cylinder. If you must have timed off periods for HW, use the ext kit to interrupt the now permanent live going to the cylinder stat. You'll save a few cent if you time it off for say two weeks holidays, but otherwise there's little to be saved, as the losses from a fully insulated cylinder are small.

deezell · 14-03-2019 1:14am

garo wrote: »

........You are right about the OpenTherm bridge removing the need for a second BDR91. So fitting the OT bridge right from the start will save money. The Evohome shop page here: https://theevohomeshop.co.uk/content/21-What-is-OpenTherm-and-why-use-Honeywell-evohome-with-it seems to suggest the OT bridge connects directly to the boiler. So it will take a bit of research to figure out how the valve comes into play here if at all.
I assume that I only connect CH to OT bridge as HW cylinder doesn't really need it.......

I'd rather not be right as removing the CH relay means there's no live mains signal to open the valve for CH. With the OT bridge only signalling the boiler digtally at low voltage to fire for CH, you still need a basic mains voltage to open the valve, hence I'm assuming/hoping that the Evohome controller can address both relays and the bridge simultaneously. You would only discard the bdr91 relay if you only had one, single zone system , no valves, with the relay wired directly to the boiler via its normal terminals. In this case the relay doesn't open any valves, as there's only one flow to CH. Once you have two independent zones, CH an HW, you need 2 relay live signals to open valves, then you fire the boiler by a combination of these from the valves' own microswitches, or from the OT bridge connected to the boilers OT low voltage terminals. If you want to use OT, the OT bridge must control all firing, for HW or CH, as you can't (afaik) signal the boiler to fire from both it's switched terminals and it's OT terminals at the same time.
That reference in the webpage to replacing the brd91 with the bridge is, I'm certain, only the case where there are no zone valves to be switched. This would be the case if the boiler was a combi with direct HW on demand, or else was plumbed as a single zone with HW and CH heating at the same time and not independent.
Submit a query to Evohome support, asking how 2 zone S or Y plan are wired if OT control of the boiler is required.

deezell · 14-03-2019 8:58am

garo wrote: »

......

The other problem is that this page here: https://www.myboiler.com/opentherm-capable-boilers/ lists the Ideal Logic+System as OpenTherm compatible but not the Ideal Logic System which EI was proposing to install.

A quick look at the installation guide for this boiler and the plus shows identical wiring diagrams, with an OT terminal, ( page 31), typical S or Y plan layout, and significantly, suggested interconnection to an Evohome, (page 33), which shows as I predicted, the valves connected via both BDR91 relays, but also the OT terminal on the boiler connected to the OT receiver bridge. In this arrangement, as I previously stated, the valves' own relays are not used to send SL to the boiler, for either HW or CH, as this is done by the OT connection. Study pages 31-33.
https://idealboilers.com/uploads/documents/Logic_System_Installation_Servicing.pdf
Just make certain this is the boiler you are getting.

legend99 · 14-03-2019 12:18pm

deezell wrote: »

legend99 wrote: »

Firstly you are a gentleman and a scholar for taking the time to reply. And looking at the thread your knowledge of this stuff seems limitless! (Is it a hobby or are you a pro?)

Anyway, I took my Imm24 clock off the wall. I have two blue neutrals in the neutral connector 3; I have two brown (I assume live) in connector 2; I have one red wire then inserted in connector 1. So from what you're saying this would imply that the red wire is what connects to all 4 thermostats? So does that mean that if any of the 4 requires heat that the signal is coming down that black wire - or do I have my understanding assways? Would love to understand it lol.
It also brings me back to the requirement to have to have that switch set to permanently on and use the Stats to control everything? Struggling with that as it goes against the grain.....

I'm a pro, not in this field, but tech is tech, I can't resist!
Your assessment of the imm24 wiring is correct, I'm assuming the unswitched mains goes in then out to the valves/ boiler, (brown and blue pairs), and the timed Switched Live, (black, or is it red?) goes to the stats and from there to operate the valves, whose internal relays are supplied with the unswitched mains live which is directed by any valve relay to fire the boiler.
The reason you leave the clock on permanently is because the smart stats have their own timer schedule, so will close their zone valve either when set temperature is reached, or when the schedule turns off the heat for a period. (This is achieved with Tado by dropping the programmed temperature of a time slot below the likely residual temperature of the zone, say 15° between 22:00 and 7:00 is effectively off, as the zone won't cool that much overnight). You can progam the temperature as low as you like, but 15-16° is a good base in case it get extremely cold. As the cylinder stat is most likely also supplied by the old timer SL, this will now be permanently on, with the cylinder stat cutting in and out to keep the HW topped up. With a modern fully insulated cylinder, this is all you need, as there's no great saving to be made by having timed off periods for the HW, it just puts off the heating required to restore the temperature of the HW in the cylinder. If you must have timed off periods for HW, use the ext kit to interrupt the now permanent live going to the cylinder stat. You'll save a few cent if you time it off for say two weeks holidays, but otherwise there's little to be saved, as the losses from a fully insulated cylinder are small.

I'm musing out loud here but there are two junction boxes (on the wall over the boiler and in the hot press). Each junction box is fed by two valves (safe to assume the two valves over the boiler are the ground and first floor CH) and it is visibly obvious that the junction in the hot press which is on the second (attic) floor is fed by the valve on the cylinder and I assume then the other valve in the hot press is the second floor CH.

So I had a look inside the junction boxes and the one over the boiler in particular looks like the creation of a mad scientist - wires everywhere! But I was thinking. Somewhere in those boxes are probably joins to the valve to switch live right? All four valves are the Myson Power 228 and I checked the documentation on that and the switched live to boiler is the orange cable. So just wondering.....if I was to disconnect the orange cable for the 3 CH valves then the (it is red as you asked) switched live from the imm24 is no longer connected to those valves - the red cable would only connect to the HW. My musing was then to wonder if the ability to connect the smart thermostats wirelessly to the Ext box would mean I could still drive the system....?

deezell · 15-03-2019 12:10am

You can only connect a single smart stat wirelessly to the ext. Kit, and its contacts would then have to be used to connect SL to the valve for that stat's zone. The other SL contact on the ext kit is used to switch the HW valve, so if you want to use the full features of the ext. Kit you should position it beside the 2nd floor CH and HW valves in the hot press.
I get what you were thinking, that any of the three stats could wirelessly close the CH contact of the ext kit, but this is not the case, and it would be pointless, as each stat has to independently send SL to its valve to open it. The valves in turn have their own relay to send SL to the boiler, all orange SLs are combined for this, but you can't combine the initial stats SLs which open the valves as all this would mean is that any stat would open all CH valves.
As you have existing wired stats, it's a trivial task to just remove them and replace with the tado. If you want to use the wireless feature available to just ONE stat, you can, and you do this by wiring SL from the ext kit CH terminal to the brown motor wire of the correct valve.
The design purpose of the ext kit was for systems that didn't even have a pre wired mechanical stat. Plenty of them out there with just a notched timer controlling heating. It's not a trivial DIY or Trade task to route a pair of mains wires to a stat location from boiler or valves, (try running a pair invisibly from a 1st floor landing wall down to a boiler utility room, serious task), so the ext. Kit made it easy to locate a new main stat without wiring back to the boiler and s plan valves of a 2 zone system.
A small of advantage of implementing an ext kit wireless stat link, despite having a pre wired location, is of course the ability to move the now wireless stat to a better location, or even make it mobile, al a the nest and others which even have little table stands for this purpose. Another little bonus is that the stats internal battery operated relay is not required, as it's unwired, and Tado support can disable this, saving the current required to energise the redundant relay and extending the stat's battery life.
I'd advise you to install the 3 stats wired in their current locations. Get them up and running. Pair the ext kit later, and install it to add timing to the HW zone valve if you desire.. This will require you to supply permanent power to the ext kit, and then to feed the ext kit timed HW live up to the cylinder stat in place of its original feed which would have been a tap off the formerly timed red wire from the imm24. This should be easy to trace back from the cylinder stat.

legend99 · 15-03-2019 2:47am

deezell wrote: »

You can only connect a single smart stat wirelessly to the ext. Kit, and its contacts would then have to be used to connect SL to the valve for that stat's zone. The other SL contact on the ext kit is used to switch the HW valve, so if you want to use the full features of the ext. Kit you should position it beside the 2nd floor CH and HW valves in the hot press.
I get what you were thinking, that any of the three stats could wirelessly close the CH contact of the ext kit, but this is not the case, and it would be pointless, as each stat has to independently send SL to its valve to open it. The valves in turn have their own relay to send SL to the boiler, all orange SLs are combined for this, but you can't combine the initial stats SLs which open the valves as all this would mean is that any stat would open all CH valves.
As you have existing wired stats, it's a trivial task to just remove them and replace with the tado. If you want to use the wireless feature available to just ONE stat, you can, and you do this by wiring SL from the ext kit CH terminal to the brown motor wire of the correct valve.
The design purpose of the ext kit was for systems that didn't even have a pre wired mechanical stat. Plenty of them out there with just a notched timer controlling heating. It's not a trivial DIY or Trade task to route a pair of mains wires to a stat location from boiler or valves, (try running a pair invisibly from a 1st floor landing wall down to a boiler utility room, serious task), so the ext. Kit made it easy to locate a new main stat without wiring back to the boiler and s plan valves of a 2 zone system.
A small of advantage of implementing an ext kit wireless stat link, despite having a pre wired location, is of course the ability to move the now wireless stat to a better location, or even make it mobile, al a the nest and others which even have little table stands for this purpose. Another little bonus is that the stats internal battery operated relay is not required, as it's unwired, and Tado support can disable this, saving the current required to energise the redundant relay and extending the stat's battery life.
I'd advise you to install the 3 stats wired in their current locations. Get them up and running. Pair the ext kit later, and install it to add timing to the HW zone valve if you desire.. This will require you to supply permanent power to the ext kit, and then to feed the ext kit timed HW live up to the cylinder stat in place of its original feed which would have been a tap off the formerly timed red wire from the imm24. This should be easy to trace back from the cylinder stat.

Thanks for that - I hadn't realised only one Stat could be connected wirelessly so my vague thought obviously won't work.

Pair the ext kit later, and install it to add timing to the HW zone valve if you desire.. This will require you to supply permanent power to the ext kit, and then to feed the ext kit timed HW live up to the cylinder stat in place of its original feed which would have been a tap off the formerly timed red wire from the imm24. This should be easy to trace back from the cylinder stat.

Re this suggestion could you explain that more? Are you saying the Ext kit goes next to the boiler in ground fllor utility room or next to cylinder in second floor hot press? In terms of the current wiring, in that second floor hot press, the switched live for the second floor CH and cylinder are wired together and one wire is then used to bring both down to the ground floor junction box (99% sure of this) where that one wire is then joined to the other two switched lives for the ground and first floor CH and that join - which now has 4 switched lives - is clearly the block which connects as one to the imm24 feed. Are you saying I would need to run a new wire from the utility room to the hot press? I'm just a small bit confused as to what the specifics of your suggestion mean....
Again, very big thanks for the help as I'm actually becoming really interested now in what to do here!

deezell · 16-03-2019 2:16pm

legend99 wrote: »

Thanks for that - I hadn't realised only one Stat could be connected wirelessly so my vague thought obviously won't work.

Pair the ext kit later, and install it to add timing to the HW zone valve if you desire.. This will require you to supply permanent power to the ext kit, and then to feed the ext kit timed HW live up to the cylinder stat in place of its original feed which would have been a tap off the formerly timed red wire from the imm24. This should be easy to trace back from the cylinder stat.

Re this suggestion could you explain that more? Are you saying the Ext kit goes next to the boiler in ground fllor utility room or next to cylinder in second floor hot press? In terms of the current wiring, in that second floor hot press, the switched live for the second floor CH and cylinder are wired together and one wire is then used to bring both down to the ground floor junction box (99% sure of this) where that one wire is then joined to the other two switched lives for the ground and first floor CH and that join - which now has 4 switched lives - is clearly the block which connects as one to the imm24 feed. Are you saying I would need to run a new wire from the utility room to the hot press? I'm just a small bit confused as to what the specifics of your suggestion mean....
Again, very big thanks for the help as I'm actually becoming really interested now in what to do here!

First, install ext kit next to cylinder.
It appears that the SL from all 4 independent valves is sent to the timer before it goes to the boiler. Same effect as having a SL from a timer split and sent to each stat, from there to acuate each valve, and then combine all 4 valves' orange SL outputs to fire the boiler. Logically it achieves the same effect, mechanically it appears that the stats are always controlling their valves, but the firing of the boiler by any valve is interrupted by the combined SLs going through the timer. It's a bit daft to do it this way, but of no consequence once you combine all the lives in the timer, or leave it always on. You could establish the exact layout of your wiring with a phase tester and methodical switching of the valves and timer. Does any stat open its valve even when the timer is off? This is how it would be if timer is last in circuit instead of first. Either way, get the CH stats in and switching their valves.
Later, find the permanent live that goes up to the cylinder stat, disconnect, (check it's not interrupted by the timer), and use this to power ext kit, you'll need a local Neutral as well. Take a new SL from the HW contact on the ext kit, and use this to supply the cylinder stat. You should now be able to turn off HW valve by timing or by turning down the cylinder stat.

john_doe. · 16-03-2019 3:18pm

Tweaky wrote: »

Have gone with the Drayton Wiser kit after reading people’s views here. Seems to be great value for money especially if you want to add TRVs later. 10% off on amazon at the moment as well.

Wondering how this went
The Drayton doesn't give the water temp does it?

Tweaky · 19-03-2019 10:11am

john_doe. wrote: »

Wondering how this went
The Drayton doesn't give the water temp does it?

Still in the box I'm afraid - waiting from my Electrician to get to me and wire it in. Doesn't do the water temp as far as I am aware

AstraMonti · 20-03-2019 10:17pm

So I got the Tado, thanks for the earlier suggestions. At the moment I have the climote installed with a wireless thermostat. I assume in its place I need to wire the tado extension kit, place the tado thermostat in one of the coldest rooms (if I am not mistaken?) and then setup each separate radiator valve. Any additional steps needed?

Edit: It's an oil boiler.

Waesfjord · 21-03-2019 12:40am

I've been an interested follower of this thread and have learnt alot from all the feedback.
My situation is that I've a relatively new house with heat pump for heating only. Two zones (up/downstairs) controlled by standard timer and mechanical thermostats. The thermostat downstairs is in hall and I want to move it to open plan living area where it can provide better control. Hot water zone is controlled by heat pump master controller, so will remain unchanged.

Tado seems a good solution, where their hub replaces my two channel timer, Tado extension device then to allow me to move downstairs thermostat to wherever I want, with upstairs thermostat replaced in current wired location (2-wire 230VAC). I see some negative feedback on Tado's recent subscription requirements (€3/month I believe). Is this avoidable, or must all new users have a sub? Any other perceived issues with Tado for my set-up?

Drayson Wiser seems a cheaper alternative, with equivalent functionality.

Presumably I will need their3-channel controller hub with hot water channel redundant for my 2-zone heating requirements. Can anyone confirm? Or is a cheaper 2-channel controller for heating zones available (e.g. one marketed as 1 heat zone + hot water?)

When using their radiator TRV's, can any TRV call for heat via its assigned wall thermostat, regardless of wall thermostat temperature, once configured in different zone in app - I know Tado can do this, so basically, does the Drayson application allow the same zonal control when using TRV's?

Anyone advise of any other significant differences I should consider, as likely to want to augment control with smart TRV's across the house also.

I presume Drayson TRV's can be mounted in horizontal, however have not any confirmation anywhere. I see Tado have different models dependent on whether fitted in vertical or horizontal. Can anyone confirm?

Fwarder · 21-03-2019 9:44am

Hi All,

I was wondering if you guys could help me out with figuring out if my home heating could be automated easily. In my house we have HW + 2 zone heating ( I presume

). Let me actually list what I have in total:

Boiler: small gas boiler. Has its own on/off switch. I presume not a combi boiler since we don't have hot water "on-demand" but rather until it's still hot from the HW tank
Hot press: Hot water tank with what I presume is immersion electrical bits n' pieces on it and of course thermostat on the side of the tank
Thermostats: Upstairs (master bedroom), downstairs (kitchen), and that hot press one if that one counts
Timers: just one analogue APT timer connected to 3 manual switches for HW, H1, H2 right next to the timer. All of them being just below the boiler itself.

That being said, would it be easy (or difficult) to sort all of that to be controlled by one or two Nests?

I presume those three switches would need to have their own timers and not be connected to just one. And as well I didn't figure out where do thermostats come in to play with all of that. Would they be connected in series with those three switches to turn it off once the temperature is set?

Usually the timer would just turn on the heating/HW in the morning before going to work for an hour, thermostats are set to ~20, HW thermostat is around 65-70. And in the evening we would either turn on the heating again for a while or light up the stove.

deezell · 21-03-2019 11:03am

Waesfjord wrote: »

I've been an interested follower of this thread and have learnt alot from all the feedback.
My situation is that I've a relatively new house with heat pump for heating only. Two zones (up/downstairs) controlled by standard timer and mechanical thermostats. The thermostat downstairs is in hall and I want to move it to open plan living area where it can provide better control. Hot water zone is controlled by heat pump master controller, so will remain unchanged.

Tado seems a good solution, where their hub replaces my two channel timer, Tado extension device then to allow me to move downstairs thermostat to wherever I want, with upstairs thermostat replaced in current wired location (2-wire 230VAC). I see some negative feedback on Tado's recent subscription requirements (€3/month I believe). Is this avoidable, or must all new users have a sub? Any other perceived issues with Tado for my set-up?

Drayson Wiser seems a cheaper alternative, with equivalent functionality.
Presumably I will need their
3-channel controller hub with hot water channel redundant for my 2-zone heating requirements. Can anyone confirm? Or is a cheaper 2-channel controller for heating zones available (e.g. one marketed as 1 heat zone + hot water?)
When using their radiator TRV's, can any TRV call for heat via its assigned wall thermostat, regardless of wall thermostat temperature, once configured in different zone in app - I know Tado can do this, so basically, does the Drayson application allow the same zonal control when using TRV's?
Anyone advise of any other significant differences I should consider, as likely to want to augment control with smart TRV's across the house also.
I presume Drayson TRV's can be mounted in horizontal, however have not any confirmation anywhere. I see Tado have different models dependent on whether fitted in vertical or horizontal. Can anyone confirm?

With the wiserI would expect the 2 zone is just a replacement for standard 2 zone controller, CH timed and thermostat controlled, HW timed only.
TRVs are wireless just like the stats, they should activate CH zone on the controller to which they are paired.
I see no reason why the TRVs will not work horizontally, other than the air flow to the measuring device inside will be a little different.
Great install video here.
https://youtu.be/wOOSxwDeXdo

deezell · 21-03-2019 12:00pm

Fwarder wrote: »

Hi All,

I was wondering if you guys could help me out with figuring out if my home heating could be automated easily. In my house we have HW + 2 zone heating ( I presume ). Let me actually list what I have in total:
Boiler: small gas boiler. Has its own on/off switch. I presume not a combi boiler since we don't have hot water "on-demand" but rather until it's still hot from the HW tank

Hot press: Hot water tank with what I presume is immersion electrical bits n' pieces on it and of course thermostat on the side of the tank

Thermostats: Upstairs (master bedroom), downstairs (kitchen), and that hot press one if that one counts

Timers: just one analogue APT timer connected to 3 manual switches for HW, H1, H2 right next to the timer. All of them being just below the boiler itself.

That being said, would it be easy (or difficult) to sort all of that to be controlled by one or two Nests?

I presume those three switches would need to have their own timers and not be connected to just one. And as well I didn't figure out where do thermostats come in to play with all of that. Would they be connected in series with those three switches to turn it off once the temperature is set?

Usually the timer would just turn on the heating/HW in the morning before going to work for an hour, thermostats are set to ~20, HW thermostat is around 65-70. And in the evening we would either turn on the heating again for a while or light up the stove.

Straigforward. You'll need two Nests. The Heatlink boxes replace the switches, one for the first CH zone and the other for the second CH zone and HW. HW timing will be controlled by the nest, HW temperature will continue to be controlled by the cylinder stat. Remove the old wall stats and join their Live and Swiched Live wires together, or just turn them up full. Same goes for the old timer, set to always on or remove.
You'll do this for less if you use Tado, less again with Drayton Wiser Kit 3, and both these brands can handle TRVs later is desired.

Fwarder · 21-03-2019 12:17pm

deezell wrote: »

Straigforward. You'll need two Nests. The Heatlink boxes replace the switches, one for the first CH zone and the other for the second CH zone and HW. HW timing will be controlled by the nest, HW temperature will continue to be controlled by the cylinder stat. Remove the old wall stats and join their Live and Swiched Live wires together, or just turn them up full. Same goes for the old timer, set to always on or remove.
You'll do this for less if you use Tado, less again with Drayton Wiser Kit 3, and both these brands can handle TRVs later is desired.

So I should be OK with getting two Nests and two heatlinks? I just signed up with electric ireland so I was thinking about using their 130e offer.
Then heatlinks would replace switches, and I could position nests around the house?
P.s. this is the picture of those switches near timer
https://imgur.com/r48f5Cf

Krombopulos Michael · 21-03-2019 12:23pm

Fwarder wrote: »

So I should be OK with getting two Nests and two heatlinks? I just signed up with electric ireland so I was thinking about using their 130e offer.
Then heatlinks would replace switches, and I could position nests around the house?
P.s. this is the picture of those switches near timer
https://imgur.com/r48f5Cf

If you use the 130 euro offer, if you order over the phone, you will only get one Nest for 130, and the second for full price. This is what happened with me, and I was charged 400euro in total for 2 nest plus installation.

It was mentioned on the thread here that if you go online and order the nests twice, you will get both for 130 each.

Fwarder · 21-03-2019 12:49pm

Krombopulos Michael wrote: »

If you use the 130 euro offer, if you order over the phone, you will only get one Nest for 130, and the second for full price. This is what happened with me, and I was charged 400euro in total for 2 nest plus installation.

It was mentioned on the thread here that if you go online and order the nests twice, you will get both for 130 each.

Thanks for a tip!

So basically Nest is not a rocket science. Current analogue thermostat and timer would be set to always ON position (or bypassed with wiring) and that way the heating would be controlled/relying solely on those three HW/H1/H2 switches that would again be controlled with heatlink. Which is, again, controlled by Nest in the end

At least that's the theory?

Can I just ask one more thing : I presume those switched control some valves, but how do thermostats and timer come into play? Would they be positioned in series with those switches? Or would they be connected to the control circuit of those valves?

E.g. IF the Heating switch is ON and IF the Timer is ON and IF the Thermostat temperature is below the certain temp, turn on the boiler and pump the water through the radiators?

deezell · 21-03-2019 1:04pm

Fwarder wrote: »

......Can I just ask one more thing : I presume those switched control some valves, but how do thermostats and timer come into play? Would they be positioned in series with those switches? Or would they be connected to the control circuit of those valves?

E.g. IF the Heating switch is ON and IF the Timer is ON and IF the Thermostat temperature is below the certain temp, turn on the boiler and pump the water through the radiators?

All circuits are in series, old timer, switches, old stats, and these operate motorised valves which in turn and in parallel fire the boiler with their internal relay. All you are doing in the CH case is adding the nest in series, removing the old stats, timer and switches (you can leave the latter if you want, also always on). Only HW retains its stat. Timing and temperature switching for CH takes place in the Heatlink. Nest stat is just a measuring device, it has no mains connectable relay, as some bodgers have found to their cost. It can receive low voltage power from the heatlink, if you reuse the redundant wire pair from the wall stat to the timer/ switches (careful with this, mains will wreck the nest, wire pair must be isolated). No need for phone charger power supply, but now Nest is fixed to wall. These wires will also carry the data, so wireless link is not used. Useful if the nest is a long way from the heatlink.

AstraMonti · 21-03-2019 9:24pm

I think I might have over-ordered. Do I need the tado extension kit if all my rads and hot water is in the same one zone or can I wire just the thermostat directly?

deezell · 21-03-2019 10:24pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

I think I might have over-ordered. Do I need the tado extension kit if all my rads and hot water is in the same one zone or can I wire just the thermostat directly?

Check if your HW is heated by gravity, that is, the heated water transfers to the cylinder by convection upwards, cylinder above the boiler and pipes always rising above the boiler connection and no sping loaded non return valve in the circuit. In this configuration the HW cylinder will heat without the circulation pump running, but CH and HW will heat when the pump is on. If your plumbing is gravity, the ext. kit can be configured by tado to give gravity wiring. This is a kind of zone and a half, where you have either HW, or HW + CH, but not CH alone. It works by firing the boiler using the HW terminal on the ext kit for either zone timer schedule, while the pump is operated by the CH terminal. Result is as above. HW only timing is available for summer, and combined HW and CH is available when the CH timer is on (and stat is below target). If the pump is required to heat either zone then you need some re-plumbing.

AstraMonti · 22-03-2019 12:45pm

The plumbing is done a bit weird, a lot of rads are T-ed out on the pipe that goes from the boiler to the hot water cylinder. Definitely not ideal, but I am not too worried about that either, as with the rad valves and the (soon to come) pv panels will help just have hot water alone. However, how do I wire the tado in? At the moment I have the climote, which just turns on the boiler and the water and the rad gets heated. I now have both the tado thermostat and the extension kit. I don't think I need the extension kit right now, do I ?

deezell · 29-03-2019 8:27pm

Copied from bargain thread.

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Home heating automation

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