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Why is it called Baile Átha Cliath in Irish and not Dubh Linn?

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  • 05-07-2011 5:04pm
    #1
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭


    My friend wants to know why they didn't just go with Dubh Linn for the Irish version of Dublin.


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    #2
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Dubh linn was the viking settlement on the south side. Before that there was Baile Atha Cliath which is named after a fording point in the river near father mathew bridge


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    #3
    Gingersnaps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 303 ✭✭Gingersnaps


    In Celtic times there were four national roads called Slighe (ways or roads) that converged at a Ford on the river Liffey. The ford was known as Ath Cliath, which translates to Hurdle Ford so Baile Ath Cliath is the Town of the Hurdle Ford.

    At the same time there was an area where the Poddle river, (now underground) joined the Liffey. This was called Dubh Linn or as we would translate it, Black Pool. At that time the Liffey was a lot wider than it is now. Dubh Linn would have been roughly to the east side of where Dublin Castle is now.

    The first vikings settled (after they got fed up plundering and pillaging us for years) on the south side between the Hurdle Ford and the Black pool. As the previous poster said the hurdle ford was roughly where Father Matthew bridge is now.


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    #4
    The Scientician
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Oh I know the origin of the term Baile Átha Cliath and thanks for further information on that, but my question is why when Irish names for towns were being picked in recent times that Dubh Linn (the obvious clear predecessor of the term Dublin) wasn't chosen and BAC was. I know some towns have Irish names with little connection to their Anglo-names but most do have a direct link.


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    #5
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    The Scientician wrote: »
    Oh I know the origin of the term Baile Átha Cliath and thanks for further information on that, but my question is why when Irish names for towns were being picked in recent times that Dubh Linn (the obvious clear predecessor of the term Dublin) wasn't chosen and BAC was. I know some towns have Irish names with little connection to their Anglo-names but most do have a direct link.

    what do you mean picked in recent times?


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    #6
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    The order of the two words in "Dubh Linn" has always struck me as peculiar. In Irish it should be "An Linn Dubh"? How did the two words become reversed?
    The folks over in the Linguistics & Etymology forum might have some more answers.


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    #7
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    And why is Donegal Tir Chonaill and not Dun na nGall?


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    #8
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    And why is Donegal Tir Chonaill and not Dun na nGall?

    Well I think the historical Tir Chonaill didn't include the Inishowen area (and possibly Raphoe) as that was part of the historical Tir Eogain.


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    #9
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Which would make it all the more reason to call modern Donegal Dun na nGall as Gaeilge. Yet, Tir Chonaill is used. Go figure. (Teigh uimhir)


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    #10
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    Which would make it all the more reason to call modern Donegal Dun na nGall as Gaeilge. Yet, Tir Chonaill is used. Go figure. (Teigh uimhir)

    Do you see/hear Tir Chonaill being used more? I don't ,but I think it may be used more in Donegal to reflect the old name/local history.


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    #11
    morcheen k
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭morcheen k


    was wondering about this the other day when i seen an irish van in london and struggled to work out what county it was from :)


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    #12
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    Which would make it all the more reason to call modern Donegal Dun na nGall as Gaeilge. Yet, Tir Chonaill is used. Go figure. (Teigh uimhir)

    Well the county was never called Tír Chonaill (Tyrconnell) this was of course the name of the native Kingdom last ruled by the O'Donnell's. Historically Tír Chonnaill didn't included Inisowen (Inish Eoghain) until it was conquered by the O'Doherty's in the 14th century. It had been of course the heartland of Tír Eoghain and where the McLouglins had ruled from.

    In general most people I know who speak Irish say Tír Chonaill and you'd see this with GAA signs saying "Tír Chonaill abú"

    The diocesian map in many ways represents the political boundaries in the 12th century
    R-Map.bmp

    As for Dublin, I assume the reason why it's not used is that it was a name chosen by the Vikings and then later the english, it wasn't a placename "coined" by Irish speakers. The irish annals always talk about the "Foreigners (Gall) at Ath Cliath" for example. In comparison Donegal was coined as "Dún na nGall" signified a Viking settlement (on site of Donegal town) that was later destroyed by the kingdom of Tír Chonaill, the name persisted as name of settlement around the O'Donnell's main residence.


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