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The Black and tans in Ireland

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    A lot of sense there Junder.

    Partition was inevitable in one way. I mean both tribes had their armies.

    A federal/ regionalised form of self government could have worked.

    Egos probably got in the way of a solution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    T runner wrote: »
    A 32 county Ireland would be a much different place to the current ROI or NI.
    The free state had a huge catholic majority and therefore was a catholic country. By and large there was no oppression of protestants and the vast majority of southern protestants did and do very well and are contented and proud Irishmen and women. The small miniority was by and large well looked after and rightly so.

    On the other hand the North had less than a 2:1 protestant majority and the government quickly enforced policies to ensure complete protestant dominance and control even by gerrymandering areas of a catholic majority.

    The protestant fear of what will happen them under rule by Roman Catholics has been guiding their politics for a long time. There is little evidence that Roman Catholics have used their power in the republic to persecute protestants.

    Partition, against the hopes of its signatories has only polarised the unsolved problem and was clearly a huge mistake.

    As the proprtion of protestants in NI falls the case for exclusion from a united Ireland based on unsubstantiated fear of prosecution weakens.

    Ne Temere?
    93% of the state schools being run by the Roman catholic church
    the cases regarding non catholic Librarians and non catholic doctors?

    protestants may not have been persecuted in Ireland, but the Catholic Church made sure that the government made life was as uncomfortable as possible for them


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    Ne Temere?
    93% of the state schools being run by the Roman catholic church
    the cases regarding non catholic Librarians and non catholic doctors?

    protestants may not have been persecuted in Ireland, but the Catholic Church made sure that the government made life was as uncomfortable as possible for them

    Jesus, I hate doing this, but its not like the Protestants/Church of Ireland were the fine citizens when they ruled the land and parliament. (funny though, all their prejudices towards THE CHURCH, came true and they were right)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jesus, I hate doing this, but its not like the Protestants/Church of Ireland were the fine citizens when they ruled the land and parliament. (funny though, all their prejudices towards THE CHURCH, came true and they were right)

    I wouldn't disagree, the CoI exploited it's position, but the impression is often given that Ireland miraculously became a secular utopia after independance, when in reality, the RC Church took the view that they now had control and would do in their power to make Ireland a strict catholic country.

    Incidentally, I know a CoI rector who started his career up in Donegal, looking after several small parish churches, he tells of an area (which i believe is stilltrue today) where Catholic and Protestants lived perfectly happily together. in fact, one of the small churches he looked after had been condemned and need demolishing and rebuilidng.

    One evening, a friend of a parishoner came to him and told him to empty the Church and make sure thee was no one around the following evening, as he had a brother from over the border who was a "Demolitions Expert".

    Sure enough, after the brother's visit, there was nothing left except a smoking pile of rubble, which everyone in the community helped rebuild into a lovely small parish Church.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Ne Temere?
    93% of the state schools being run by the Roman catholic church
    the cases regarding non catholic Librarians and non catholic doctors?

    there were some incidents but you also had a few protestant presidents as well

    Douglas Hyde or Erskine Childers ring a bell.
    protestants may not have been persecuted in Ireland, but the Catholic Church made sure that the government made life was as uncomfortable as possible for them

    There were issues where the tribes ring fenced themselves - work places etc.

    So right or wrong on petty prejudices - the Black and Tans AFAIK they were not Irish Protestants or Catholics.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Ne Temere?
    93% of the state schools being run by the Roman catholic church
    the cases regarding non catholic Librarians and non catholic doctors?

    protestants may not have been persecuted in Ireland, but the Catholic Church made sure that the government made life was as uncomfortable as possible for them

    Notwithstanding the isolated cases you mentioned I dont think the government made lifer difficult for protestants here.

    There was absolutely no impediments to their civil liberties whatsoever. In fact because they in the main occuypied the upper classes their liberty was protected and guaranteed.

    The amount of catholic state schools was in fairness inherited from the British regime. When conceding education to Catholics after emancipation they built Maynooth for the churtch and the church responded by supporting the establishment.

    Becuase of the religious aspect to Irish history and education it has taken a long time for secularisation.

    It should be noted that the republic of Ireland has a far more secular education system now than NI. Probably more a factor of the importance of the ereligious question north of the border than anything else.

    Hopefully the recent events in the church can be a radical catalyst for almost complete secularisation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    T runner wrote: »
    Notwithstanding the isolated cases you mentioned I dont think the government made lifer difficult for protestants here.

    There was absolutely no impediments to their civil liberties whatsoever. In fact because they in the main occuypied the upper classes their liberty was protected and guaranteed.

    The amount of catholic state schools was in fairness inherited from the British regime. When conceding education to Catholics after emancipation they built Maynooth for the churtch and the church responded by supporting the establishment.

    Becuase of the religious aspect to Irish history and education it has taken a long time for secularisation.

    It should be noted that the republic of Ireland has a far more secular education system now than NI. Probably more a factor of the importance of the ereligious question north of the border than anything else.

    Hopefully the recent events in the church can be a radical catalyst for almost complete secularisation.

    Actully all Protestant schools in Northern Ireland are classed as bog standard state secondray schools, its the catholic church that maintains a spefic single indenty school, system maintained through the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CMS).
    As for the Decline in Protestant population in the Free state was concerned you can argue the toss all you like, fact, is there was a massive decline in protestant population a fact that is at odds with the sentiment that they were treated ok by the state, either way the preception is in northern ireland (in part because of the storys brought to us by those protestants that left the free state and also storys from those protestants still living in the RoI) that protestants were mistreated and when it comes down to it preception is everything. Much Like the issue with the black & Tans, RIC UVF and the whole partition issue


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,953 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    The Musgrave family, which had built themselves a mini-empire 100 odd years ago (and now takes a lot of money from us via SuperValu etc franchises etc:(), were apparently thinking of taking a one-way trip to the North after the regime change. They were obviously expecting some kind of backlash, but it didn't materialise, so they stayed put.

    However, for many decades after the event, the board of directors only consisted of protestant family members or associates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    The Musgrave family, which had built themselves a mini-empire 100 odd years ago (and now takes a lot of money from us via SuperValu etc franchises etc:(), were apparently thinking of taking a one-way trip to the North after the regime change. They were obviously expecting some kind of backlash, but it didn't materialise, so they stayed put.

    However, for many decades after the event, the board of directors only consisted of protestant family members or associates.

    And whats more there was an exodus of protesatants and a flight of investment capital from ireland

    those who stayed showed trust in the new regime


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    junder wrote: »
    Actully all Protestant schools in Northern Ireland are classed as bog standard state secondray schools, its the catholic church that maintains a spefic single indenty school, system maintained through the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CMS).
    As for the Decline in Protestant population in the Free state was concerned you can argue the toss all you like, fact, is there was a massive decline in protestant population a fact that is at odds with the sentiment that they were treated ok by the state, either way the preception is in northern ireland (in part because of the storys brought to us by those protestants that left the free state and also storys from those protestants still living in the RoI) that protestants were mistreated and when it comes down to it preception is everything. Much Like the issue with the black & Tans, RIC UVF and the whole partition issue


    The only protestants who can judge were the protestants who remained here. There is absolutely no substantiation for claiming that a majority or even a large minority were mistreated: it simply didnt happen.

    The historian ATQ Stewart acknowledes this in his book on Ulster protestant history (The Narrow Ground). He says that by and large protestants were treated well in the south as it was in their interest to do.

    The movement of some protestants out of the free state can attributed to members of the withdrawing British Army. Some may have married up north as there was a greater pool of potential co-religionist mates there.

    Some may have married into catholicism. Some may have moved due to wanting to be a part of a protestant majority (around the border perhaps) but very few or none moved to evade persecution and the vast majority remained.

    It was partitioning the country into two religious states that caused some of the polarisation. If anyone is to blame for that Im afraid it is the advocates of partition.

    The state schools in Northern Ireland all have a very Unionest-pro British -Protestant ethos. (A protestant clergyman on every school council). There was no secular, neutral alternative for Catholic children whatsoever.

    It was clearly policy that state schools were de facto for protestants only.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    T runner wrote: »
    The only protestants who can judge were the protestants who remained here. There is absolutely no substantiation for claiming that a majority or even a large minority were mistreated: it simply didnt happen.

    The historian ATQ Stewart acknowledes this in his book on Ulster protestant history (The Narrow Ground). He says that by and large protestants were treated well in the south as it was in their interest to do.

    The movement of some protestants out of the free state can attributed to members of the withdrawing British Army. Some may have married up north as there was a greater pool of potential co-religionist mates there.

    Some may have married into catholicism. Some may have moved due to wanting to be a part of a protestant majority (around the border perhaps) but very few or none moved to evade persecution and the vast majority remained.

    It was partitioning the country into two religious states that caused some of the polarisation. If anyone is to blame for that Im afraid it is the advocates of partition.

    The state schools in Northern Ireland all have a very Unionest-pro British -Protestant ethos. (A protestant clergyman on every school council). There was no secular, neutral alternative for Catholic children whatsoever.

    It was clearly policy that state schools were de facto for protestants only.

    not that this has anything to do with the thread but protestant churchs relenquished all control over protestant schools following an education act brought in abouy 1940, these days all so called protestant school, follow the same curriculam as any other state within the UK, state schools can not discrimate on the grounds of religion. There is no concil for protestant maintained schools and protestant churchs did not retain control over school property.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    junder wrote: »
    the only model to avoid civil war is the one we have ie partition, the size of northern ireland may have varied to some degree but the result would have been the same.
    Indeed here's a link to a unionist rally in Donegal. No fight out of the same 'Ulster Volunteers' when the brits said cheerio, we're leaving you. Not a shot or barely a whimper from them or their unionist brethern across the border.

    On October 2. 1913, Sir Edward Carson held a great rally at Raphoe. 1500 Donegal volunteers paraded under the command of the fifth Earl of Leitrim.

    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/the-laggan-and-the-ulster/index.xml
    even now a united ireland would spark of wide scale civil desturbances which would quickly escalate.
    Well there you have it from a typical lovely unionist who claims to believe in democracy. So even if there is a nationalist majority in the occupied counties, the Lambeg drum etc will be brought out and screams of 'bloodbaths', ' a slaugther from Dublin to Cork ' , etc is what our lovely unionists friends might threaten to do :D

    And then these are the very people who pontificate that democracy cannot be hijacked by the threats of a violent minority ?
    Much is made about Northern Ireland being a protestant state for a protestant people bit conviently forget that the Free state later RoI was a catholic state for catholic people, there was nothing about the free state that remotely interested Unionists in wanting to be part of, and as it was there was a exodius of protestants from the free state into northern ireland which would account for the massive protestant population drop in the free state/roi after partition.
    Sure the Catholic Church had too much influence in the state, but lets not pretend it was a mirror reflection of the unionist regieme in the six counties.
    Could the free state have defeated the UVF we can only speculate and even then any debate about that would likely end up in a pissing contest. Either way the fact that the UVF was created and armed in the way it was shows how much resolve there was to resist being forced into a united ireland
    The UVF, FFS what's their capability. Often half drunk, running into a pub or firing from a car in a nationalist area on totally defenceless and innocent people. If the IRA and Free State army had taken on you crowd minus the brits - they'd have finished in a handful of days. And anyway, it's very questionable if they had the guts to kick off without the brits.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Ne Temere?
    93% of the state schools being run by the Roman catholic church
    the cases regarding non catholic Librarians and non catholic doctors?

    protestants may not have been persecuted in Ireland, but the Catholic Church made sure that the government made life was as uncomfortable as possible for them
    Well we certainly don't need a lecture form the brits on religious equality. This is a state that even up to today insists in law that it's head of state cannot be a Catholic and has a number of seats reserved in it's government ( House of Lords ) for the Church of England.

    Now imagine if we had laws stating that the President could not be a Protestant and we reserved seats in the Senate for the Catholic Church ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well we certainly don't need a lecture form the brits on religious equality. This is a state that even up to today insists in law that it's head of state cannot be a Catholic and has a number of seats reserved in it's government ( House of Lords ) for the Church of England.

    Now imagine if we had laws stating that the President could not be a Protestant and we reserved seats in the Senate for the Catholic Church ?

    There is (As usual:rolleyes:) only one person "Lecturing" around here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,953 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    McArmalite wrote: »
    we reserved seats in the Senate for the Catholic Church ?

    They didn't need seats, just strings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    ]
    And then these are the very people who pontificate that democracy cannot be hijacked by the threats of a violent minority ?
    .

    Protestants dont pontificate :)



    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well we certainly don't need a lecture form the brits on religious equality.?

    Fears don't have to be real they can be imaginary.

    You are looking at it based on todays value systems and with the benefit of hindsight that lots of the fears were unfounded.

    My own view is the exodus of protestants from the South was our loss.

    Presbyterians had also been discriminated against as non conformists too.

    So you had two issues - the sectarian divide and political divide.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CDfm wrote: »
    Fears don't have to be real they can be imaginary.

    You are looking at it based on todays value systems and with the benefit of hindsight that lots of the fears were unfounded.

    My own view is the exodus of protestants from the South was our loss.

    Presbyterians had also been discriminated against as non conformists too.

    So you had two issues - the sectarian divide and political divide.

    There is a belief that all protestants were the Anglo Irish, but from what I gather, a lot of people renounced catholicism in order to climb the social ladder, so a lot would have ben home grown Irish. I doubt very much they would have left.

    You also have the people who would have heard De Velera talking about catholic Doctors (people should have the right to talk to a catholic on their death bed or whatever it was) and thinking that there was little future for protestant medical practitioners in Ireland. This is one example, but it kind of sends a message out.

    Then you would have had those who left with the army, although a lot of these would have been on a kind of rotation anyway.

    Lastly, you would have had those who realised that times in Ireland were going to be hard and just moved to the UK or wherever, to be join up with family. Emmigrating if you like.

    For the rest, I have no doubt that they were generally accepted and there were very few cases of Protestants being singled out for abuse, but i am sure a lot kept their heads down anyway, for fear of standing out "Like A Prod":D

    Personally I think Ne Temere would have accounted for a lot, I know several men through the church who married Catholic women and had to sign an agreement stating that they would bring their children up as catholics before the priest would give their partners permission to marry non catholics. Rome's very own breeding out programme.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    They didn't need seats, just strings.

    LOL :D They didn't even need that some of the Irish Catholics were like crazy fundamentalists.


    Anyway -that aside, discrimination in the north was structural inequality. Thats a different animal to what happened in the south. It would have been more difficult to do that in the South given that lots of the institutions of state and local government and of justice were inherited.

    When was the event in Limerick and the jews 1905/08 ???? so maybe their fears werent baseless after all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    junder wrote: »
    not that this has anything to do with the thread but protestant churchs relenquished all control over protestant schools following an education act brought in abouy 1940, these days all so called protestant school, follow the same curriculam as any other state within the UK, state schools can not discrimate on the grounds of religion. There is no concil for protestant maintained schools and protestant churchs did not retain control over school property.

    As you can see from the below Controlled or State controlled schools have the Protestant Churches represented on the board of governers which is quite far from your claim of protestant churches relinquishing all control.
    These are essentially protestant schools.


    SOURCE


    i) Controlled Schools: These are essentially Protestant schools - they are owned by the Education and Library boards, although they are mostly controlled by their Boards of Governors. The Protestant churches are represented on the Board of Governors.
    (ii) Catholic Maintained Schools: These are essentially Catholic schools - they are owned by the Catholic Church but are managed by a Board of Governors. The Education and Library Boards provide some financial assistance, by financing recurrent costs and the employment of non-teaching staff.
    (iii) Other Maintained: These are essentially Protestant schools, in that they are owned by the Protestant church and managed by a Board of Governors. Like the Catholic maintained schools, they received funding from the Education and Library Boards for the recurrent costs.
    (iv) Voluntary Grammar: These schools are owned by school trustees and managed by a Board of Governors.
    (v) Grant Maintained Integrated Schools: These are essentially mixed schools, for Catholic and Protestant children. They are partially owned by trustees and managed by a Board of Governors, with their recurrent costs being met by the Department of Education.


    In the Republic 55% of schools are categorized as secondary with some religious influence. The state paying 93% of teachers cost uniformly in each school. This percentage is falling rapidly.

    The remainder are fully supported state schools and the expectation is that these mixed religion schools will be in the majority shortly.

    BTW Protestant population in Dublin now 9% (100,000) and rising.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    T runner wrote: »
    BTW Protestant population in Dublin now 9% (100,000) and rising.

    I wonder how they base that figure?

    In the Chruch I attend, I would hazard a guess and say that 25 to 50% are baptised/confirmed catholics who choose to attend an Anglican Church for one reason or another. Mainly because they like singing and we have a pretty good choir from what I can tell:D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Wasnt there a "restitution" commision of some kind after the civil war that made payments to protestants who's houses had been burned?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    BTW everybody the thread is not about religion but- The Black and tans in Ireland - We ( including myself ) have gone off topic. Anyone know roughly how many were in the Tans ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    BTW everybody the thread is not about religion but- The Black and tans in Ireland

    You started it:D

    We ( including myself ) have gone off topic. Anyone know roughly how many were in the Tans
    ?

    8 to 9,500 I believe and they were largely WW1 veterans.

    (I understand there was a similar regiment sent to help the White Russians and David Bowies grandfather was in that.)

    I wonder how many veterans faced them from the republican side. as that must have influenced the British.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,953 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    http://www.jerusalemquarterly.org/ViewArticle.aspx?id=305

    I knew there had to be some priests involved. I wonder how many of the B&Ts were actually Irish?:eek:


    "The group of former “Black and Tans” deployed in Palestine were a motley crew. Among them were excommunicated priests and other former clergy, lawyers who had been debarred, a man who was arrested for murder in Mexico but had escaped, and a former medical doctor who allegedly raped a female patient after performing an abortion. In addition to formerly serving in the “Black and Tans,” most of these men were also veterans of WWI, some holding high ranks and many having received medals of distinction. They drank heavily. In Palestine, they wore a distinctive uniform that included a Stetson broad-brimmed hat, reminiscent of a cowboy hat.12"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    CDfm wrote: »
    You started it:D


    ?

    8 to 9,500 I believe and they were largely WW1 veterans.

    (I understand there was a similar regiment sent to help the White Russians and David Bowies grandfather was in that.)

    I wonder how many veterans faced them from the republican side. as that must have influenced the British.
    No I didn't bring religion into the thread ya silly f***er ya. junder did in post #90 " the Free state later RoI was a catholic state for catholic people, there was nothing about the free state that remotely interested Unionists in wanting to be part of, and as it was there was a exodius of protestants from the free state into northern ireland "


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    the Free state later RoI was a catholic state for catholic people, there was nothing about the free state that remotely interested Unionists in wanting to be part of, and as it was there was a exodius of protestants from the free state into northern ireland "

    What about the Pearsons in Offally - was there was a policy of reprisals against "collobarators"?

    Interesting link on the execution of two of the brothers and the burning of the family homestead. There was no definate evidence against them just suspicion.

    http://www.drb.ie/more_details/09-09-19/A_House_Built_on_Sand.aspx

    The Joyce Family from Galway, while Catholic, were Unionists and emigrated.

    So did Protestants fear reprisals or the boycott of their businesses ??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    I wonder how they base that figure?

    In the Chruch I attend, I would hazard a guess and say that 25 to 50% are baptised/confirmed catholics who choose to attend an Anglican Church for one reason or another. Mainly because they like singing and we have a pretty good choir from what I can tell:D

    There is a large English ethnic minority in Dublin. Do they account for many of the congregation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    CDfm wrote: »
    What about the Pearsons in Offally - was there was a policy of reprisals against "collobarators"?

    Interesting link on the execution of two of the brothers and the burning of the family homestead. There was no definate evidence against them just suspicion.

    http://www.drb.ie/more_details/09-09-19/A_House_Built_on_Sand.aspx

    The Joyce Family from Galway, while Catholic, were Unionists and emigrated.

    So did Protestants fear reprisals or the boycott of their businesses ??

    The cases of religious persecution were so rare as to not be a factor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    T runner wrote: »
    The cases of religious persecution were so rare as to not be a factor.

    This is about the Black and Tans - just wondering did you have reprisals against persons associated with the British forces that lead to the injury or loss of life or destruction or damage to property?

    Say Sir Arthur Vicars of Kilmorna House in Kerry was killed and the House burnt down. He had been some sort of public servant and connected in some way to the theft of the irish crown jewels ( interesting in its own right -see link)

    http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/jewels.htm


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I'll always remember my Great Gran telling us stories about the Black and Tans raiding/attacking their house. Her two older brothers were IRA members so the Tans arrived on several occasions looking for stashed firearms. During one search she turned to a guy searching a wardrobe (She was about six at the time) and in pure outrage shouted 'What are you doing?! The only things you'll find in there are cobwebs and spiders!'

    On one occasion the gits even fired a shot in through the letterbox.

    She really did have a hate for them. Far greater than any disliking of the British.


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