Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

"taking the soup"

2»

Comments

  • #32
    Mrs. MacGyver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭Mrs. MacGyver


    silverharp wrote: »
    I never met a prod called Murphy!

    My mother's family are C of I and Murphy's (and Irish speaking!).

    Anyway i live near Macroom where the famine had a devastating impact. As far as I know there were no converts. I don't think my family 'took the soup' they just married into the C of I. Do you think that it was a regional phenomenon?

    See the following thread in another forum:

    http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=28781


  • #33
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Considering the Victorians belief that the famine was God's vegence, it is believeable and I don't think any of the main Churches have changed tactics much since then either.

    Would people really see their families starve out of principle though? personally I would convert to Judaism (and whatever "cuts" that involved:eek:) if it meant feeding my family.


  • #34
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    souperism as it was known was a widespread phenomenon . Although practised by numerous protestant sects it was also strongly condemned as a practice by many native Irish protestants who very often held the simple view that the starving and wretched were their fellow countrymen first and foremost . And the quakers who viewed it as a purely humanitarian issue . The majority of those who practised it werent from Ireland , but english protestant missionaries who saw in the holocaust an opportunity for converts . In reality it was much more an english thing than a protestant one .
    As for the issue of breweries it was during this period that the Irish drinks industry , in particular its whiskey distilleries began to flourish for the simple reason that the grain used in distilling wasnt being used for human consumption any more , because people couldnt afford to eat it , and under free market economics the distilleries were the only people who could afford to purchase it , so they secured for a knock down price and various fortunes were made on the back of the destruction of their own people .


  • #35
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Considering the Victorians belief that the famine was God's vegence, it is believeable and I don't think any of the main Churches have changed tactics much since then either.

    Would people really see their families starve out of principle though? personally I would convert to Judaism (and whatever "cuts" that involved:eek:) if it meant feeding my family.

    it wasnt a matter of just changing ones religion but your entire personal philosophy and your way of life . soup kitchens would not have kept your family alive either in the midst of the plagues and diseases . community solidarity was the only chance families really stood . taking the soup meant turning your back on your community as well as the genuine belief you were putting your soul in immortal peril .
    dont forget that prior to the potato blight education of catholics had been made illegal for hundreds of years . the only form of education most had was religious based .


  • #36
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    dont forget that prior to the potato blight education of catholics had been made illegal for hundreds of years . the only form of education most had was religious based .

    Could you provide a source for this claim, that the education of Catholics was illegal for hundreds of years before the famine?


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    PDN wrote: »
    Could you provide a source for this claim, that the education of Catholics was illegal for hundreds of years before the famine?

    This link says gives a date for enactment of the penal Laws as about 1691. Maybe 160 odd years is not actually "hundreds of years" but it's still a long time.


  • #38
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Hagar wrote: »
    This link says gives a date for enactment of the penal Laws as about 1691. Maybe 160 odd years is not actually "hundreds of years" but it's still a long time.

    that states that education was limited not illegal, it also says the act was never fully actioned. In fact, it looks like the Irish Catholics got off quite lightly compared to the English ones.

    Are there any figures for the number of "Protestants" that died during the famine compared to the number of Catholics? (It would be interesting to see how they compare pro rata) I think the whole religion thing is a red herring, surely as ejmaztec says, this was a case of the "Haves" and the "Have nots".


  • #39
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hagar wrote: »
    This link says gives a date for enactment of the penal Laws as about 1691. Maybe 160 odd years is not actually "hundreds of years" but it's still a long time.

    Well, it's not even 160 years. Catholic schools were provided for by an Act of Parliament in 1782. Also, the penal laws forbade education by Catholics, not of Catholics. It was perfectly legal for Catholics to receive education at non-Catholic schools. What the penal laws did forbid was the the establishment of specifically Catholic schools. This is not just a matter of semantics. For example, Scientologists are, today, not permitted to run their own schools in Germany - but that does not equate to making the education of Scientologist children illegal.

    The penal laws were a repressive piece of legislation that caused much injustice and misery. As such they deserve to be discussed. However, such discussion is hindered, not helped, by hysterical, overblown unhistorical twaddle. The fact that specifically Catholic schools were suppressed for 92 years is an important historical concern, but claims that "education of catholics had been made illegal for hundreds of years" have no place in a history forum.


  • #40
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    that states that education was limited not illegal, it also says the act was never fully actioned. In fact, it looks like the Irish Catholics got off quite lightly compared to the English ones.

    Are there any figures for the number of "Protestants" that died during the famine compared to the number of Catholics? (It would be interesting to see how they compare pro rata) I think the whole religion thing is a red herring, surely as ejmaztec says, this was a case of the "Haves" and the "Have nots".

    I think that Catholics were certainly more likely than Protestants to be numbered among the "have nots".

    Also, I have heard that emigration was easier for Protestants than for Catholics because some US States (particularly in the South) had laws restricting Catholic immigration. However, I have no sources for this. Any other posters ever hear of this?


  • #41
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    PDN wrote: »
    Well, it's not even 160 years. Catholic schools were provided for by an Act of Parliament in 1782. Also, the penal laws forbade education by Catholics, not of Catholics. It was perfectly legal for Catholics to receive education at non-Catholic schools. What the penal laws did forbid was the the establishment of specifically Catholic schools.
    Can you imagine how much discrimination has to exist in a society before it is enshrined in the law of the land?


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hagar wrote: »
    Can you imagine how much discrimination has to exist in a society before it is enshrined in the law of the land?

    History demonstrates that widespread discrimination need only exist for a few short years until it is enshrined in the law of the land. In fact, in the 16th Century, laws discriminating against Protestants or Catholics in England were enacted in the space of weeks depending upon the affiliation of the monarch in power at the time (Edward, Mary, Elizabeth etc).


  • #43
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Monarchs are bastards all the same, aren't they?
    They just decide they don't like you, next thing you know you're just a paragraph in a history book.


  • #44
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hagar wrote: »
    Monarchs are bastards all the same, aren't they?
    They just decide they don't like you, next thing you know you're just a paragraph in a history book.

    :)


  • #45
    dodgyme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭dodgyme


    Calling someone a 'soup drinker' is still an active insult along the West coast of Mayo. The famine lives long in psyche of people from the west.

    Another term is 'stone breaker' pretty much the same insult. i.e. you took a place on one of the public relief schemes during that time.

    Anyone who finds these terms difficult to comprehend need to take a trip to doolough in mayo to understand the setting for such feelings.


  • #46
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    PDN wrote: »
    What the penal laws did forbid was the the establishment of specifically Catholic schools

    there are those who may welcome such a law once again :D


  • #47
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Hagar wrote: »
    Can you imagine how much discrimination has to exist in a society before it is enshrined in the law of the land?

    I doubt if there is any country in the world where this has not happened and is still happening.


  • #48
    DublinDes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭DublinDes


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well, maybe it goaded the Catholic Church into doing more than just tokenism as they might have been afraid that they might be losing souls ( more should I say, influence ) to the heathen Protestant churches ? ?
    Why is the Catholic Church always blamed ? OK, I know they done a lot of wrong things, no question about it, but even when they do a charitable deed, they are still criticized for it ?? Are you a member of the Socialist Workers or some other looney left organisation ?


Advertisement