Five years of marriage equality. How has our society survived.

Odhinn · 14-06-2020 6:52pm

Das Reich wrote: »

Go back 30 years so instead of 20. It was the consolidation of USA as the only power after the fall os USSR and Berlin Wall. Who would imagine in 1990 that USA would be like this in such short period? Fair play to Poland if they not want to follow the rest of western world.

The US would be like what?

And what about poland?

Pherekydes · 15-06-2020 2:00am

Das Reich wrote: »

Fair play to Poland if they not want to follow the rest of western world.

Poland sucking up to Putin. Sucking up to your bully neighbour always goes well.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-06-2020 4:59am

Das Reich wrote: »

Who would imagine in 1990 that USA would be like this in such short period?

I know, we thought Dan Quayle was an idiot - and he was - but at least he was only vice president.
Then they voted (well, kind of) for Dubya twice, and of course descended yet another level with the orange you know who

Why do they vote for such idiots?

By the way, neither Quayle, Dubya nor Trump are known for their affection for gay people.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-06-2020 5:02am

Pherekydes wrote: »

Poland sucking up to Putin. Sucking up to your bully neighbour always goes well.

I honestly think that Poland is only voting this way because all of the young people with a brain in their head have left.

Similar to how FF won so many elections here...

bop1977 · 15-06-2020 5:54am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I know, we thought Dan Quayle was an idiot - and he was - but at least he was only vice president.
Then they voted (well, kind of) for Dubya twice, and of course descended yet another level with the orange you know who

Why do they vote for such idiots?
.

We voted for Bertie so it’s not only the yanks voting for idiots.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-06-2020 8:09am

bop1977 wrote: »

We voted for Bertie so it’s not only the yanks voting for idiots.

You're confusing idiot with crooked.

Bertie was nobody's fool - although he'd happily play the fool when he thought there was a few votes in it. CJH (and he should know) called him the most devious, the most cunning of all.

But many of us were happy to vote for a man we knew to be crooked, just as long as we thought we could get a slice of the action.

Bannasidhe · 15-06-2020 11:02am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You're confusing idiot with crooked.

Bertie was nobody's fool - although he'd happily play the fool when he thought there was a few votes in it. CJH (and he should know) called him the most devious, the most cunning of all.

But many of us were happy to vote for a man we knew to be crooked, just as long as we thought we could get a slice of the action.

To keep the ol academic muscles in shape I sometimes let the mind go awandering and one place it has wandered to is the importance of 'The Cute Hoor' in Gaelic Irish culture.

Because chieftains were elected, and every male descendent - to the 4th generation- of a previous chieftain was eligible, it essentially became a Cute Hoor contest.

The main role of a Gaelic chieftain was to try and increase the status of his particular clan in relation to other clans. This would be done through a combination of sneaky asset stripping, bully boy tactics when called for, and shady deals.
Allies were vital to this - allies were acquired through marriage, 'gift' giving (even better if the gifts were assets you had sneaky stripped from a rival clan),and by being the biggest swinging Micky for miles around.
It was also very very important that any attack on the clan - or member of the clan - was swiftly dealt with by either a smackdown - or sneaky asset stripping.

Now replace 'clan' with 'party', chieftain with 'party leader', and 'allies' with 'coalition partners' and it seem to me it's Irish politics in a nutshell.

It kinda made sense when each clan was autonomous or (semi- autonomous) and their main rivals were the clans next few fields over but when we are 'all in this together' it's a bloody disaster.

blackwave · 15-06-2020 1:06pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I honestly think that Poland is only voting this way because all of the young people with a brain in their head have left.

Similar to how FF won so many elections here...

Not really most young people in Poland are against PIS, Poland is still quite a conservative country particularly in the older population and there is a bit of gerrymandering for young people as well to vote so that helps the ruling party.

They are not sucking up to Putin either, there has been quite a lot of coverage here of Russia trying to whitewash their involvement in the split of Poland in ww 2. Also the government are trying to get the soldiers that Trump is pulling out of Germany to be based in Poland going forward which is something Putin definitely doesn't want.

Bannasidhe · 15-06-2020 1:48pm

blackwave wrote: »

Not really most young people in Poland are against PIS, Poland is still quite a conservative country particularly in the older population and there is a bit of gerrymandering for young people as well to vote so that helps the ruling party.

They are not sucking up to Putin either, there has been quite a lot of coverage here of Russia trying to whitewash their involvement in the split of Poland in ww 2. Also the government are trying to get the soldiers that Trump is pulling out of Germany to be based in Poland going forward which is something Putin definitely doesn't want.

Following Putin's line on LGBTQ+ (lack of) rights does look a bit sucky uppy to be honest.

robindch · 15-06-2020 5:41pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Following Putin's line on LGBTQ+ (lack of) rights does look a bit sucky uppy to be honest.

Poland's politicians are treading a familiar line in populism - anti-immigrant, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-EU, "Law and Order", centralizing authority, eroding rule of law etc nonsense. Nothing to do with Putin whom all the Eastern European states - save Bulgaria and Austria - view with considerable misgiving.

cgcsb · 15-06-2020 5:46pm

robindch wrote: »

Meanwhile in Moscow, Putin is running into a spot of bother. Last month, his approval ratings sank to 59% while the number of people brave enough to answer "No, I don't support him" to an unknown voice on the telephone rose to 33%.

https://www.levada.ru/2020/05/06/odobrenie-institutov-vlasti-i-doverie-politikam/

So Putin has brought forward the "referendum" on changes to the constitution - the two principal amendments allow for Putin to remain in power until around 2036, while the second defines "marriage" as between a man and a woman only. The Kremlin has therefore released some splendidly homophobic videos - you'll get the sense of the video without subs, but the last line's the important one - "You won't see such a Russia in the future - decide the future of your country - vote to pass the amendment to the constitution!"

https://twitter.com/gruppa_voina/status/1267732905813557248

According to the (relatively) independent Levada Polling Institute, the "referendum" on the first of July looks set to pass with 55% for and 25% against.

https://www.levada.ru/2020/06/02/obshherossijskoe-golosovanie-po-popravkam-v-konstitutsiyu-3/

Was the aulwan annoyed because red is obviously not the child's colour? I was spittin too in fairness :pac::pac:

cgcsb · 15-06-2020 5:55pm

In Ireland we voted against the introduction of divorce as recently as 1986. Hard to imagine now, how would somebody opposed to legal divorce even be taken seriously. I'd chalk it up the smartest Irish people of the day being in New York and London, and the last lot who didn't have free post-primary education were still breathing.

blackwave · 15-06-2020 6:22pm

robindch wrote: »

Poland's politicians are treading a familiar line in populism - anti-immigrant, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-EU, "Law and Order", centralizing authority, eroding rule of law etc nonsense. Nothing to do with Putin whom all the Eastern European states - save Bulgaria and Austria - view with considerable misgiving.

Yeah, that's a big thing. The polish ruling party is quite populist, they are on the right on social issues and on the left for economic just an example of that is if you are under 26 you pay little tax which was done to try get the young votes.

They also rushed the reducing of restrictions for covid as they were trying to sneak in the presidential election.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-06-2020 11:51pm

blackwave wrote: »

Not really most young people in Poland are against PIS

Yeah and what I said was there'd be a lot more anti-PIS voters around if so many younger people hadn't emigrated.

cgcsb wrote: »

In Ireland we voted against the introduction of divorce as recently as 1986. Hard to imagine now, how would somebody opposed to legal divorce even be taken seriously.

Even in 1995 it only squeaked in on the tiniest of margins, it is alleged that bad weather in the West swung it! Only 3 years before that, we were prosecuting people for selling condoms - when there was still no effective treatment for AIDS!

It's hard to believe how fcuked-up this country was, and it's really not all that long ago.

cgcsb · 15-06-2020 11:55pm

That's the scary thing. These people are still walking among us and are silent but in their heads are thinking these terribly anti human thoughts.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-06-2020 12:32pm

It's funny how an issue which is so divisive at the time can appear such a non-issue a few years down the line. We didn't get "Hello divorce, goodbye Daddy" much, and we're not getting people marrying horses or their cat either

Do No voters ever reflect on their position? Accept that maybe they were wrong and their fears were unfounded? Admit that they were played for fools by shadowy far-right forces - unlikely!

About a third of the electorate would vote No to literally anything, just because. "Stick it to de gubbermint" :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe · 19-06-2020 12:39pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's funny how an issue which is so divisive at the time can appear such a non-issue a few years down the line. We didn't get "Hello divorce, goodbye Daddy" much, and we're not getting people marrying horses or their cat either

Do No voters ever reflect on their position? Accept that maybe they were wrong and their fears were unfounded? Admit that they were played for fools by shadowy far-right forces - unlikely!

About a third of the electorate would vote No to literally anything, just because. "Stick it to de gubbermint" :rolleyes:

If the example recently given here but since deleted is any indication No voters will go to wedding receptions hosted by a same-sex couple, enjoy their hospitality, and be extremely rude about their hosts on an anonymous message board afterwards.

cgcsb · 19-06-2020 12:40pm

I don't think the majority of no voters would now tell you they voted, and maybe half of them feel a bit silly now.

lazygal · 19-06-2020 4:16pm

I know a few people, parents of friends of mine, who were no voters for marriage equality. And then voted yes for repeal because they'd had a few years to examine some of their long held beliefs, and chat with their adult children and then felt they had made a mistake in 2015 that they didn't want to repeat in 2018 and were then firm yes voters and vocally so. So I wouldn't write off all nos as nos forever.

Odhinn · 31-07-2020 5:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

Dire, dire warnings about the gays adopting any passing childers and we'd all be surrogates for them non stop. I think we're alright, given the circumstances.

Are we though.................

Bannasidhe · 31-07-2020 6:06pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Are we though.................

Looking forward to the reboot of Tank Girl.

Odhinn · 31-07-2020 6:14pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Looking forward to the reboot of Tank Girl.

...a HBO series would be good.

robindch · 21-10-2020 7:26pm

Pope Francis indicates support for same-sex civil unions

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but certainly a good step in the right direction:

Pope Francis wrote:

Homosexual people have a right to be in a family [...] They are children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or made miserable over it. What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54627625

Odhinn · 22-10-2020 12:05am

robindch wrote: »

Pope Francis indicates support for same-sex civil unions

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but certainly a good step in the right direction:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54627625

Fair play where fair play is due.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 1:38am

Iona Institute denounce pope as a heretic in 3... 2... 1...

s1ippy · 22-10-2020 1:43am

They must be fair stuck for the few bob to let him say that.

For once thing, what self-flagellating, guilt-addled person has a same-sex relationship but also still loves the Catholic Church? I suspect that demographic might be more niche than he expects.

jill_valentine · 22-10-2020 1:44am

robindch wrote: »

Pope Francis indicates support for same-sex civil unions

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but certainly a good step in the right direction:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54627625

My impulse was to be quite curmudgeonly, but it was pointed out to me this does actually go quite a ways to undermine some of the spicier firebrands in places like Poland or post-missionary African Catholic communities. So, has to be said, yes, credit where it's due. I'll take harm reduction any day.

Now if somebody would just hurry up and marry me...

Peregrinus · 22-10-2020 2:04am

s1ippy wrote: »

They must be fair stuck for the few bob to let him say that.

For once thing, what self-flagellating, guilt-addled person has a same-sex relationship but also still loves the Catholic Church? I suspect that demographic might be more niche than he expects.

Though it might also be larger than you expect. It's only anecdotal, but I know several people who identify as gay and Catholic.

To be fair, I know more people who identify as gay and ex-Catholic. But "gay and Catholic" is not an uncommon identification, and gay Catholics get quite shirty at anyone who tells them that they can't be gay and Catholic. Or who assume that, if they are, they must be self-flagellating and guilt-addled.

lazygal · 22-10-2020 9:26am

Indeed. There are straight and gay Catholic people I know who *gasp* actually follow the teaching. They're celibate in the case of the gay man and in the case of a couple didn't have sex or live together before marriage, don't use contraception etc. And I absolutely respect them for literally practicing what's preached. They would also be very non judgemental about how other people live their lives, while being open about how important their faith is to their own lives.

cgcsb · 22-10-2020 9:35am

lazygal wrote: »

Indeed. There are straight and gay Catholic people I know who *gasp* actually follow the teaching. They're celibate in the case of the gay man and in the case of a couple didn't have sex or live together before marriage, don't use contraception etc. And I absolutely respect them for literally practicing what's preached. They would also be very non judgemental about how other people live their lives, while being open about how important their faith is to their own lives.

Those poor people, I hope one day they recover.

Five years of marriage equality. How has our society survived.

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