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Ireland's Jewish community

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    Three of my favourite directors are Jewish:

    Stephen Spielberg, Mel Brooks and Woody Allen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed. I find it fascinating that they're associated with greed at all. The knights Templar created the first banking system and the Swiss modernised the banking system.


    Jewish people have excelled in many walks of like, apart from banking, eg, medicine, academia, the arts.. However, if this is ever commented upon it is virtually always in a negative way -eg, the alleged Jewish "stranglehold" of Hollywood. It could be attributed to envy but it is just too pervasive and bizarre for that.


    Of course, many Jews aren't successful and East European Jews were predominantly poor. There was another conspiracy for that - they were sub-human. The Nazis had no difficulty combining all prejudices in describing Jews as lazy, sub-human, rat like spreaders of disease and defective genes, and the the same time super-rich, cunning, international conspirators who controlled the world.


    No cognitive dissonance there!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    The worst one I ever heard was from scumbag one night.

    He said to me how many Jews can you fit in a VW Polo?


    It depends on how big the ash tray is.


    The most disgusting thing I've ever heard.

    Mod note:ENOUGH OF THIS RUBBISH. Don't post in this thread again.

    And that will be the least of anybody's problems if they try to continue like this.

    Have some modicum of respect, please.

    Buford T. Justice


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Achasanai wrote: »
    Respect him because he's Jewish or because he converted to Catholicism? :confused:
    Respect was probably the wrong word. I was trying to indicate that his Jewish background has made him more interesting to me, for the first time ever.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    1641 wrote: »
    Jewish people have excelled in many walks of like, apart from banking, eg, medicine, academia, the arts.. However, if this is ever commented upon it is virtually always in a negative way -eg, the alleged Jewish "stranglehold" of Hollywood. It could be attributed to envy but it is just too pervasive and bizarre for that.
    This can be partially explained again by a certain snobbishness towards some pursuits among the largely Christian background population. The stage was seen as decidedly unbecoming of a gentleman and ladies were thought of a little more than prostitutes if they appeared on it. The new tech of film was also considered a bit dodgy and Non U in the early days. Before the "glamour" of Hollywood came along it was considered a bit grubby a field so tended to attract more folks who were outside the social pale looking to make their way, Jews in particular(when we consider that private clubs were almost exclusively for European Americans, better if Protestant and Jews were barred from membership). This slant was much more in play in the US, if we look at European cinema as a comparison the numbers of Jewish people involved is far less. If European cinema had taken over the world the "Jews run the movie business" would not be the meme it is.

    The vast majority of this kinda thing is cultural and that changes over time. Go back a couple of thousand years and the poor man of Europe today, Greece would have contained the people with the most Nobel prizes and they regarded Jews, when they regarded them at all, as just another friendly enough quaint little middle eastern bunch under their influence after Alex took over the Persian empire. hell if you look at our own country and go back to the early Medieval in Europe it would have been a lot of Irish monks walking away with the Nobel prizes, yet fast forward a few centuries and you'd see bad English comedians entertaining the cheap seats with jokes about thick Paddies.

    It seems to depend on what a culture values over time. If it values learning more you get learned people, if it values commerce more you get a strong middle and upper class, if it values strongmen or cutehoorism more, you end up with strongmen and cute hoors.

    Of course, many Jews aren't successful and East European Jews were predominantly poor. There was another conspiracy for that - they were sub-human. The Nazis had no difficulty combining all prejudices in describing Jews as lazy, sub-human, rat like spreaders of disease and defective genes, and the the same time super-rich, cunning, international conspirators who controlled the world.


    No cognitive dissonance there!
    Some Germans, even hardcore nazis and antisemites did at times question this. Mainly those soldiers on the Russian front. One guy I read noted it specifically that to him these people were dirt poor with nothing and reminded him of poorer versions of his own country relatives and hardly a threat and why were they going for these people and not after the "bankers" like was promised. More than a few noted that the rich had already fled years previously. As ever it's nearly always the poor who get it most in the neck when crap goes down. You saw that in many places in Eastern Europe and long before the nazis came long, where murderous pogroms were a annual sport and again it was nearly always the poor who were attacked, usually by their fellows in poverty.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Wibbs wrote: »

    Some Germans, even hardcore nazis and antisemites did at times question this. Mainly those soldiers on the Russian front. One guy I read noted it specifically that to him these people were dirt poor with nothing and reminded him of poorer versions of his own country relatives and hardly a threat and why were they going for these people and not after the "bankers" like was promised. More than a few noted that the rich had already fled years previously. As ever it's nearly always the poor who get it most in the neck when crap goes down. You saw that in many places in Eastern Europe and long before the nazis came long, where murderous pogroms were a annual sport and again it was nearly always the poor who were attacked, usually by their fellows in poverty.


    Nazi propaganda prepared the ground by the depiction of Jews as naturally subhuman in their "natural state" and that they existed as such in eastern Europe in the ghettos and Shtetls. According to propaganda they chose to live in such impoverished conditions but when the came to Germany (travelling "like a herd ot rats") they wore a "mask" to conceal this true nature - by this way they could gain power, money and influence. Allegedly "documentary" films (but largely staged or using manipulated footage) portrayed this , eg, "The Eternal Jew".


    I'm sure some Germans didn't buy this at all, but the Nazi propaganda was influential. Of course, Jews were also portrayed as "bolsheviks", "international bankers" and "intellectuals" - all terms of abuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Stacey Solomon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    1641 wrote: »


    Of course, many Jews aren't successful and East European Jews were predominantly poor. There was another conspiracy for that - they were sub-human. The Nazis had no difficulty combining all prejudices in describing Jews as lazy, sub-human, rat like spreaders of disease and defective genes, and the the same time super-rich, cunning, international conspirators who controlled the world.


    No cognitive dissonance there!
    They were excluded from most public schools and all public service jobs. They couldn't own land etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    They were excluded from most public schools and all public service jobs. They couldn't own land etc.
    We had the Penal Laws that were like that


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Edgware wrote: »
    We had the Penal Laws that were like that


    Jews also had to wear special clothes so everyone knew they were jews. The yellow badge now famous from WW2 had actually been around before. Medieval Europe used the yellow star. In some places particularly Eastern Europe it was a hat.

    It was used in The UK too. As late as 1858. Daniel O'Connell tried help them and fought for Jewish rights. He actually tried to stop what was called Jewish Disablities. One of which was to have to wear special clothing. It made people very vulnerable on the streets.



    Few people seem to remember jews were made to wear clothing identifying them as jews in public long before ww2.



    They also had to pay the jew tax fiscus Judaicus. They could only live in certain places and they couldn't rent land either.

    They couldn't have certain trades.


    They also had to take special oaths called.
    Oath More Judaico



    There were, however, some older laws that prescribed certain practices intended to mock Jews in court. These examples illustrated the kinds of humiliating rituals that accompanied the taking of the oath:
    • Byzantine Empire, 10th century: the Jew would wear a girdle of thorns around his loins, stand in water, and swear by "Barase Baraa" (Bere**** Bara), so that if he spoke untruth, he would be swallowed by the earth just like Dathan and Abiram in Numbers 16:1–27.
    • Arles (c. 1150): a wreath of thorns would be hung on the swearer's neck, others would grovel at his knees, and a thorn branch five ells in length would be pulled "between his loins" while he swore and called down upon himself all the curses of the Torah.
    • Swabia (13th century): the Jew would stand on the hide of a sow or a bloody lamb.
    • Silesia (1422): the Jew would stand on a three-legged stool and have to pay a fine each time he fell, finally losing his case if he fell four times.
    • Dortmund: the Jew would be fined each time he halted in repeating the oath.
    • Vrbové, Hungary (1517): the Jew would stand barefooted and swear with his face turned to the east, holding the Pentateuch in his hand.
    • Breslau (c. 1455): the Jew would stand bareheaded and pronounce the name of Yahweh.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,822 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Before the "glamour" of Hollywood came along it was considered a bit grubby a field so tended to attract more folks who were outside the social pale looking to make their way, Jews in particular(when we consider that private clubs were almost exclusively for European Americans, better if Protestant and Jews were barred from membership). This slant was much more in play in the US, if we look at European cinema as a comparison the numbers of Jewish people involved is far less. If European cinema had taken over the world the "Jews run the movie business" would not be the meme it is.

    'An Empire of Their Own' is a decent book on the subject.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Some Germans, even hardcore nazis and antisemites did at times question this. Mainly those soldiers on the Russian front. One guy I read noted it specifically that to him these people were dirt poor with nothing and reminded him of poorer versions of his own country relatives and hardly a threat and why were they going for these people and not after the "bankers" like was promised. More than a few noted that the rich had already fled years previously. As ever it's nearly always the poor who get it most in the neck when crap goes down. You saw that in many places in Eastern Europe and long before the nazis came long, where murderous pogroms were a annual sport and again it was nearly always the poor who were attacked, usually by their fellows in poverty.

    Nazi anti Semitic propaganda never focused on the poor, though, with regard to Jews. Nor did it focus on Mr and Mrs Cohen down the street, who everybody got along with. It was always the "them" factor, the "other" and largely contained to targeting the "big" Jew, like the bogeyman Bolshevik or the international banker.

    The thing is, though, is that Nazi propaganda regarding Jews was pretty thin on the ground before 1935 and the vast majority of Germans wouldn't have come into contact with it. Their main propaganda targets were Socialists, Communists and Bolsheviks. Hitler was told to rein in the anti Jewish rhetoric, because it was losing the crowd, especially in urban areas. Areas where Germans actually knew some Jews and it didn't tally with the image that Hitler was trying to portray.

    Before Hitler was made Chancellor by Hindenburg, the German Jewish population was around half a million and contained to cities, largely, and Goebbels noted that the urbanites were going to be harder to sway and he was correct. The Nazis never really had the same grip over the likes of Berlin as they did in the more rural areas of the country.

    The anti Bolshevik rhetoric always gained far more traction with Germans than the anti Jewish angle, especially with the middle classes. The two were occasionally mixed, of course, and he Nazis weren't short of pointing out that leading Communists were Jewish and that Karl Marx was a Jew.

    Once in power, and once Hitler abolished any dissenting voices in the Reichstag, the anti Jewish propaganda went up in the mid to late 30's, culminating in the likes of Kristallnacht. But by then the population of Jews in Germany was less than 200,000. The vast majority of Germans had never even seen a Jew and their negative perception was far easier to mould.

    The ultimate irony, I suppose, is that up until the mid 30's, Germany was a good place for Jews to live, especially in comparison to other European countries and German Jews had assimilated very well into society.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Tony EH wrote: »
    'An Empire of Their Own' i(.............)very well into society.




    Indeed. If you asked somebody in 1900 what country would be involved in mass murder of Jews the answer - based on what went on - would be Russia. Poland had passed anti-jewish law as far back as 1920, preceding German restricitons by a decade at the least.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Before the "glamour" of Hollywood came along it was considered a bit grubby a field so tended to attract more folks who were outside the social pale looking to make their way, Jews in particular(when we consider that private clubs were almost exclusively for European Americans, better if Protestant and Jews were barred from membership). This slant was much more in play in the US, if we look at European cinema as a comparison the numbers of Jewish people involved is far less. If European cinema had taken over the world the "Jews run the movie business" would not be the meme it is.

    'An Empire of Their Own' is a decent book on the subject.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Some Germans, even hardcore nazis and antisemites did at times question this. Mainly those soldiers on the Russian front. One guy I read noted it specifically that to him these people were dirt poor with nothing and reminded him of poorer versions of his own country relatives and hardly a threat and why were they going for these people and not after the "bankers" like was promised. More than a few noted that the rich had already fled years previously. As ever it's nearly always the poor who get it most in the neck when crap goes down. You saw that in many places in Eastern Europe and long before the nazis came long, where murderous pogroms were a annual sport and again it was nearly always the poor who were attacked, usually by their fellows in poverty.

    Nazi anti Semitic propaganda never focused on the poor, though, with regard to Jews. Nor did it focus on Mr and Mrs Cohen down the street, who everybody got along with. It was always the "them" factor, the "other" and largely contained to targeting the "big" Jew, like the bogeyman Bolshevik or the international banker.

    The thing is, though, is that Nazi propaganda regarding Jews was pretty thin on the ground before 1935 and the vast majority of Germans wouldn't have come into contact with it. Their main propaganda targets were Socialists, Communists and Bolsheviks. Hitler was told to rein in the anti Jewish rhetoric, because it was losing the crowd, especially in urban areas. Areas where Germans actually knew some Jews and it didn't tally with the image that Hitler was trying to portray.

    Before Hitler was made Chancellor by Hindenburg, the German Jewish population was around half a million and contained to cities, largely, and Goebbels noted that the urbanites were going to be harder to sway and he was correct. The Nazis never really had the same grip over the likes of Berlin as they did in the more rural areas of the country.

    The anti Bolshevik rhetoric always gained far more traction with Germans than the anti Jewish angle, especially with the middle classes. The two were occasionally mixed, of course, and he Nazis weren't short of pointing out that leading Communists were Jewish and that Karl Marx was a Jew.

    Once in power, and once Hitler abolished any dissenting voices in the Reichstag, the anti Jewish propaganda went up in the mid to late 30's, culminating in the likes of Kristallnacht. But by then the population of Jews in Germany was less than 200,000. The vast majority of Germans had never even seen a Jew and their negative perception was far easier to mould.

    The ultimate irony, I suppose, is that up until the mid 30's, Germany was a good place for Jews to live, especially in comparison to other European countries and German Jews had assimilated very well into society.


    Very interesting.

    And from whay I've read, modern Germany, a diverse and very tolerant society that criminalises the slighest whiff of Nazi symbolism, is now considered to be of the the best and safest European countries for Jews to live and thrive in, to such an extent that the population of the Jewish community in Germany is increasing rapidly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Very interesting.

    And from whay I've read, modern Germany, a diverse and very tolerant society that criminalises the slighest whiff of Nazi symbolism, is now considered to be of the the best and safest European countries for Jews to live and thrive in, to such an extent that the population of the Jewish community in Germany is increasing rapidly.
    I've heard different.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Piece of useless trivia: Amy Huberman is of Jewish descent, and Jay Kay of Jamiroquai is half Jewish.

    William Shatner (aka Captain Kirk in the original Star Trek) is Jewish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Tony EH wrote: »

    Nazi anti Semitic propaganda never focused on the poor, though, with regard to Jews. Nor did it focus on Mr and Mrs Cohen down the street, who everybody got along with. It was always the "them" factor, the "other" and largely contained to targeting the "big" Jew, like the bogeyman Bolshevik or the international banker..... .........


    The two were occasionally mixed, of course, and he Nazis weren't short of pointing out that leading Communists were Jewish and that Karl Marx was a Jew.



    In the earlier years propaganda focussed on the wealthy "money grabbing" Jews and those in positions of power and influence. Later, though, it did focus on what they described as "Jews in their natural state". This was the feature of the propaganda film, "the Eternal Jew". Footage of starving Jews confined to ghettos in Poland was shot (along with staged footage elsewhere).The film was described as depicting how the Jews naturally choose to live. These pictures were combined with montages of rats flocking out of sewers - meant to suggest how these "sub-humans" travelled west to central europe/Germany where they were able to disguise their natural appearance so as to blend in with their human hosts - and gain power.


    The JudeoBolshevik myth was used quite a lot, and often devastating so after the invasion of eastern Europe - Poland, Lithuania, etc. For example, after the Germans "liberated" Bialystok they made Jewish men parade through the street while Soviet music was played through loudspeakers. They then made them demolish any Soviet statues and symbols in the city. Then they forced the Jews into the Synagogue, poured petrol over it and set it alight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Piece of useless trivia: Amy Huberman is of Jewish descent, and Jay Kay of Jamiroquai is half Jewish.

    William Shatner (aka Captain Kirk in the original Star Trek) is Jewish.
    You didn't know kirk was jewish? So are spock and chekov by the way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭Thesiger


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Very interesting.

    And from whay I've read, modern Germany, a diverse and very tolerant society that criminalises the slighest whiff of Nazi symbolism, is now considered to be of the the best and safest European countries for Jews to live and thrive in, to such an extent that the population of the Jewish community in Germany is increasing rapidly.

    Dunno if the population is going up or not, but here’s some recent news on Jews in Germany:

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/26/jews-in-germany-warned-of-risks-of-wearing-kippah-cap-in-public

    https://www.newsweek.com/anti-semitism-germany-angela-merkel-police-protection-synagogues-jewish-1437216?amp=1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    Michael Noyk was one of the more indispensable people to the IRA. Was given a full IRA funeral when he died. A great Irishman and a great republican.

    https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/michael-collins-jewish-fenian-michael-noyk
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Noyk


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7 Datuk Vaderthir


    nuyil simp wrote: »
    the Japanese?

    Not naming any group specifically. But you get the idea.......this particular mob is'nt exactly known for its ability to win tiddly wink contests.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,822 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Indeed. If you asked somebody in 1900 what country would be involved in mass murder of Jews the answer - based on what went on - would be Russia. Poland had passed anti-jewish law as far back as 1920, preceding German restricitons by a decade at the least.

    The numbers may have had been a factor at play here. Germany's Jews were always a relatively low figure. Poland's Jews numbered at around three million. But the prejudicial circumstances that faced Polish Jews were more along the lines of religion and not ethnic or racial, as it was under the Nazis. So Jews who intermarried and whatnot in Poland tended to have happy lives. Those orthodox Jews and those who, shall we say, were more "visibly" Jewish got the brunt of the bigotry. But Jews weren't alone in being targets of bigotry in Poland. Belarusians, Slovaks, Czechs, Germans, Ukrainians, etc, could all get in the neck based on their original ethnicity. In fact, you could say that of all the people who could come in for the worst it was the Ukrainian Poles as Poland and the Ukraine has always had a tense relationship to say the least. This only became worse after the First World War. There's still ethnic and cultural tension today.

    In the 30's. some 20-25% of Poland was considered "non-Polish", in that they either weren't born there or didn't speak the language. This tended not to go down well with ethnic Poles, who lived in a country that was always pretty nationalistic and very conservative. So cultural, ethnic and racial tensions were always present.

    As far as Russia is concerned, yes pre-revolutionary Russia could have been a country where Jews could be on the end of anti Semitism and a number of famous pogroms happened there. But throughout the 20's and into the 30's this disappeared considerably under Communism, because religions of all colours were downplayed. In the more urban areas, it was always less of a problem. But in the more remote parts of the country, any differences could be seized upon for bigoted condemnation. So, again, the more "visible" the "other" was, the more likely that condemnation was to occur.

    But Russia is vast and separated by vast regions of emptiness too. What was normal in Belogorsk was completely alien in Pushnoy. So, while it was certainly possible for a pogrom to occur in one area, in another area, everything could have been perfectly fine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,340 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Currently reading a history of the Habspurg Empire.
    Prior to reading my main knowledge of the social history of that behemoth of Central Europe would have been primarily military, with a smattering of the Hungarian efforts for self determination and the 1848 compromises.

    The treatment of their Jews, particularly from the late 18th century on and the embracement of "enlightenment" principles...
    Really highlights the fact that as a community across Europe the Jew was subject to restriction and taxation that makes the Ottoman and Abbasid treatment and taxation of non-muslims over the 800s-1600s seem positively benign.

    A lot of the ire directed towards the Jewish people in medieval Europe, stems IMO from the Catholic effort to blame them as a people for the crucifixion...
    Which is quite ironic, as without a crucifixion?
    One would have to wonder if JC's Judaic sect of resurrection and afterlife would ever have gained any traction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Piece of useless trivia: Amy Huberman is of Jewish descent.
    Her father Harold is of the faith.
    He plays poker a fair bit. He told us his first visit to Ireland was work for a few weeks. He met his future wife and stayed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,822 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    1641 wrote: »
    In the earlier years propaganda focussed on the wealthy "money grabbing" Jews and those in positions of power and influence. Later, though, it did focus on what they described as "Jews in their natural state". This was the feature of the propaganda film, "the Eternal Jew". Footage of starving Jews confined to ghettos in Poland was shot (along with staged footage elsewhere).The film was described as depicting how the Jews naturally choose to live. These pictures were combined with montages of rats flocking out of sewers - meant to suggest how these "sub-humans" travelled west to central europe/Germany where they were able to disguise their natural appearance so as to blend in with their human hosts - and gain power.

    'Der Ewige Jude' was made in 1940 and was a flop, despite the fact that the Nazi's had been in government for seven years. It's impact on the German population was certainly not what Goebbels had wished, as he was hoping for a repeat of 'Jud Süs', which was released several months earlier.

    This was probably due to the nature of both films, as 'Jud Süs' was a fictional story along the more traditional lines of cinema and 'Der Ewige Jude' was more akin to a documentary. Audiences could "tune out" of the anti Semitic content in 'Jud Süs' and simply concentrate on the story being told. But this was simply not possible with the likes of 'Der Ewige Jude'.

    'Jud Süs' was actually quite a popular film outside of Germany too, and even won an award at the Venice Film Festival. The success of the film was the fact that it was never marketed as a propaganda movie, so audiences attended it like they would any other film and in an age where racism in movies was commonplace (take a look at any Tarzan film from the period), it would have been easy for an audience to just sit back and watch the story, then go home and never think of it again.

    'Der Ewige Jude', on the other hand, wore its intentions on its sleeve far more clearly and as a result was far less successful at the box office.
    1641 wrote: »
    The JudeoBolshevik myth was used quite a lot, and often devastating so after the invasion of eastern Europe - Poland, Lithuania, etc. For example, after the Germans "liberated" Bialystok they made Jewish men parade through the street while Soviet music was played through loudspeakers. They then made them demolish any Soviet statues and symbols in the city. Then they forced the Jews into the Synagogue, poured petrol over it and set it alight.

    The anti Bolshevik angle was always played up by the Nazis and used in various different forms throughout the 1930's, depending upon which strata of the German public it was aimed at. It was always more successful amongst the middle classes and less so with the working classes, a lot of whom were quite enamoured with the success of the Soviet revolution, as was the case throughout Europe.

    This disappeared overnight, upon the signing of the non aggression pact in 1939 and didn't reappear until Operation Barbarossa in mid 1941, where it became more consolidated with the anti Semitic content, for obvious reasons. The Judeo-Bolshevik threat propaganda gathered most of its steam from 1941-45 and was often tailored, depending on who was to be the recipient. It's arguable that outside of Germany, this propaganda had its most useful impact and the Nazis produced copious amounts of anti Soviet material for use in Poland, the Ukraine, Belorussia, the Baltics and many more places besides.

    It has to be said, though, that before the war the vast majority of Nazi propaganda was more of a "make Germany great again" nature, which emphasised positive German values. This type of propaganda was always more successful for the Nazis than anything else in helping to shape a more positive public attitude toward them and their polices.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Tony EH wrote: »



    As far as Russia is concerned, yes pre-revolutionary Russia could have been a country where Jews could be on the end of anti Semitism and a number of famous pogroms happened there. But throughout the 20's and into the 30's this disappeared considerably under Communism, because religions of all colours were downplayed. In the more urban areas, it was always less of a problem. But in the more remote parts of the country, any differences could be seized upon for bigoted condemnation. So, again, the more "visible" the "other" was, the more likely that condemnation was to occur.

    But Russia is vast and separated by vast regions of emptiness too. What was normal in Belogorsk was completely alien in Pushnoy. So, while it was certainly possible for a pogrom to occur in one area, in another area, everything could have been perfectly fine.


    I would say that Tzarist Russia was a place where Jews not infrequently experienced severe pograms.

    Things changed considerably under the Soviets in the 20s and 30s in that there was no official targetting of Jews and,indeed, ethnic/religious difference were downplayed in official policy, as you point out. However, local prejudice against Jews was widespread and left them vulnerable to denunciation to the authorities on spurious grounds, particularly in times of official paranoia about "plots". The "blood libel" remained especially prevalent - belief that Jews partook in the ritual murder of Christian children for preparation of the Passover meal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Tony EH wrote: »
    'Der Ewige Jude' was made in 1940 and was a flop, despite the fact that the Nazi's had been in government for seven years. It's impact on the German population was certainly not what Goebbels had wished, as he was hoping for a repeat of 'Jud Süs', which was released several months earlier.

    This was probably due to the nature of both films, as 'Jud Süs' was a fictional story along the more traditional lines of cinema and 'Der Ewige Jude' was more akin to a documentary. Audiences could "tune out" of the anti Semitic content in 'Jud Süs' and simply concentrate on the story being told. But this was simply not possible with the likes of 'Der Ewige Jude'. ........
    The anti Bolshevik angle was always played up by the Nazis and used in various different forms throughout the 1930's, depending upon which strata of the German public it was aimed at. It was always more successful amongst the middle classes and less so with the working classes, a lot of whom were quite enamoured with the success of the Soviet revolution, as was the case throughout Europe.

    This disappeared overnight, upon the signing of the non aggression pact in 1939 and didn't reappear until Operation Barbarossa in mid 1941, where it became more consolidated with the anti Semitic content, for obvious reasons. The Judeo-Bolshevik threat propaganda gathered most of its steam from 1941-45 and was often tailored, depending on who was to be the recipient. It's arguable that outside of Germany, this propaganda had its most useful impact and the Nazis produced copious amounts of anti Soviet material for use in Poland, the Ukraine, Belorussia, the Baltics and many more places besides.

    It has to be said, though, that before the war the vast majority of Nazi propaganda was more of a "make Germany great again" nature, which emphasised positive German values. This type of propaganda was always more successful for the Nazis than anything else in helping to shape a more positive public attitude toward them and their polices.


    I take your point about "the Eternal Jew" being a commercial flop. But its impact was stronger on the true believers in the party. Himmler arranged to have it shown to to SS units heading east to participate in "the Final Solution". It was also shown at Hitler Youth events.


    I also take your point about the startegic deployment of the JudeoBolshevik myth in the East from 1941 onwards in order to inflame local antipathy towards Jews. However, it had also been long a core of Nazi ideology.

    Hitler was both a proponent and a true believer. One of his propositions in Mein Kampf was that the emergence of the old Russian Empire had been essentially "the creation of a German upper class and intelligensia". Without this imput, he claimed, "the Russians would still be living like Rabbits".
    According to his view, the Bolshevik revolution had been the creation of Jews and their "universal ideas". Communism was a sham that had led Russians (and other soviets) their accept their "new leadership in Jewry". Communism was just another form that Jewishness took to gain power (just like banking, money and capitalism in the West). It was a clear demonstation of their universal evil and craving for world power. They were aiming "to rot away the very core of the nations of the world".

    Echoes there of the new nationalism, I think, and also of other current manifestations of the myth of international Jewish conspiracy and power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,822 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    1641 wrote: »
    I take your point about "the Eternal Jew" being a commercial flop. But its impact was stronger on the true believers in the party. Himmler arranged to have it shown to to SS units heading east to participate in "the Final Solution". It was also shown at Hitler Youth events.

    That's not who propaganda is aimed at, though, and I'd be careful about how much worth it was to even members of organisations that you might think it would go down well with.

    I've been lucky enough to have been able to talk to some German veterans over my years. I was even able to have a conversation with a man who was in the Nederland Division, who's insights were invaluable to augment what I've read. His comment on Nazi propaganda leaflets was very interesting. He said the men used to try and get as many of them as they could...because they made great toilet paper in the field, which was the scourge of the infantry man. well, one of them anyway.

    He also said they considered Himmler a buffoon, which I found funny, but not entirely surprising. I said "he was your de facto boss though", to which he replied, "Do you like your boss?". I did actually like my boss, but I got his point. My boss wasn't asking the impossible of me every day.
    1641 wrote: »
    I also take your point about the startegic deployment of the JudeoBolshevik myth in the East from 1941 onwards in order to inflame local antipathy towards Jews. However, it had also been long a core of Nazi ideology.

    Of course. But as I said, it's prevalence was of a much lower key and frequency before the invasion of Russia and non-existent for 2 whole years.

    The Nazis were always worried about specific impacts their propaganda had and were always afraid of going too far as it were, which they did on numerous occasions and they lost support because of it. You know support for the Nazi party was going down due to this. The incredible rise in support in 1932 was like a sugar rush and gave the Nazis some extra balls to umph up the anti Semitic content to their speeches. But this was found to have had negative effects and they toned it down, even if it wasn't that high to begin with. But, if there's one thing that will make any politic party change the course of their rhetoric, it's the loss of support.

    When Hitler was made chancellor and it's a matter of pure luck that Hitler found himself there and from there Germany's fate was sealed. If Hindenburg and the other conservatives had chosen not to try and control him, history would have played out very differently indeed. But Hitler was a very persuasive man and contrary to the popular image of the screaming madman, was actually quite quiet and considered in his approach to conversation. This is borne out by numerous people that met him throughout the years. There's no doubt that he promised Paul Hindenburg the sun moon and the stars, while playing the good boy and waiting around for death to take the old "Wooden Titan".
    1641 wrote: »
    According to his view, the Bolshevik revolution had been the creation of Jews and their "universal ideas".

    This was the view of many people and many nations outside of Germany too and they only had to point to the likes of Trotsky, Radek, Sverdlov, Kaminev, Zenoviev, or any number of high profile party members to prove it. Plus, it was no secret that, overwhelmingly, Jews supported the Communists in Russia and supported Socialist organisations outside of it.

    For right wingers in Western Europe this was catnip as a propaganda tool to use against Socialist movements and the Nazis were no different.

    But, the Nazis had to play a careful game because Hitler had added the word "Nationalsozialistische" to the party name, in a cynical move to draw away voters that would have had been more likely to vote for the KPD or SPD, etc. Hitler, in the run up to 1933, was extremely careful of what terms he used and where he used them. That's why I said that the anti Bolshevik stuff was usually reserved for the middle classes, the business owners, etc, who feared the left wingers and talk of employment and building up Germany was used when addressing the crowds of working classes.

    It really was a masterclass of populist politics and study of it makes for wonderful eye opener at how the same kind of manipulation goes on today. In many respects Hitler was the template at how politicians conduct their electioneering in modern times. No other politician of his era or before went to so many places and addressed so many different people.

    Of course, these days people are more naturally sceptical of anything any politician promises, especially in Europe (America not so much, but that's a whole different conversation). But in the early 30's this wasn't the case and even people with polar opposite view of Hitler could be swayed by him.



    Anyway, I think I've dragged this thread off of it's main point for long enough. It's an interesting discussion, but it's really not what the OP was looking for. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I've been lucky enough to have been able to talk to some German veterans over my years. I was even able to have a conversation with a man who was in the Nederland Division, who's insights were invaluable to augment what I've read. His comment on Nazi propaganda leaflets was very interesting. He said the men used to try and get as many of them as they could...because they made great toilet paper in the field, which was the scourge of the infantry man. well, one of them anyway.


    Interesting - but I'm not sure I'd give too much credence to the account of an ex SS man. I'm assuming you didn't have electrodes attached to him at the time?:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,822 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    1641 wrote: »
    Interesting - but I'm not sure I'd give too much credence to the account of an ex SS man. I'm assuming you didn't have electrodes attached to him at the time?:)

    In fairness, you never met the man.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 474 ✭✭Former Observer


    1641 wrote: »
    I'm assuming you didn't have electrodes attached to him at the time?:)

    Creepy joke.


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