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Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
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A dog is a pig is a bear is a boy.
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So, lets say that there exists a superhuman race who evolved from a common ancestor with us many millions of years ago. These superhumans have bred us mere humans in order to consume us. Better to have lived you say than knowing about how it will all end for us at the infant, child or teenage years (in the middle of the night with the superhuman custodians forcing you onto a truck with no physical restraint on their part). Shunted/beaten into the killing rooms for the old bolt in the head and then cut to pieces so that Mr Ordinary Superhuman can consume you. A lovely tasty bit of human leg Mary, says he. Of course, some mere humans will be allowed to live on for a while for procreation purposes. No oldies allowed as they would be economically a drain on the Superhuman economy. Most superhumans are lovely people, just your average guys n gals enjoying the simple things in life such as consuming a human child at festive celebrations, what with its lovely tender texture. Some superhumans keep a few human babies in stock as well - wring their necks for a tasty bite on the barbie when friends call over. Lovely superhumans, salt of the earth types, who attend their local spiritual services centre to thank the Great One for the human bounty he has so graciously delivered and to reaffirm how the great circle of life is inevitable - "we must respect the human animal" says the scriptures, human animals that the Great One has provided to us for our earthly needs, so that we can be nourished as we toil and strive to live a purposeful life that reflects the sublime peaceful doctrines of the Great One.
Sure we're well used to that, that's FG you're talking about0 -
This actually remains debatable. The number of humans who were born raised and died on a strict vegan diet is actually tiny. The long term health impacts are unknown. Certainly a vegan diet depends heavily on exotic and often processed foods in order to meet the nutritional requirements.
Very true - the number of strict vegans from cradle to grave is currently small. But you could also argue the same health concerns for the number of people who consume foods cooked in a microwave oven rather than a conventional oven. The domestic microwave oven became available for most consumers as recently as 1980s. If all foods are analyzed at their fundamental constituent level, they consist of sugars, fats and amino acids, there is no difference, irrespective of source. The foods all enter into metabolic pathways and are broken down and used accordingly. Enough work has been done to demonstrate what a human needs for sustenance - not just the basic molecules but minerals, vitamins etc. The diet of a meat consumer and the diet of a vegan are no different at the molecular level. If I eat ice and you drink Ballygowan, we have both consumed H2O, nothing more, nothing less. A vegan diet requires nothing exotic that I am aware of. It also does not require highly processed foods. A vegan diet can be of a healthy form or of an unhealthy form just like a meat & dairy diet. There are plenty of fat vegans out there.0 -
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Apologies Gozunda, I simply do not follow your thoughts here. What points(s) are you trying to convey?
Para 1: a balanced diet can be obtained from a dairy and meat based diet. Very true - but what is the relevance of this here?
Your first statement "science has told us that all our nutritional requirements can be obtained from non-animal sources". This version is reflected in the usual dietetic association dialogue. However it is true that other diets can also be deemed nutritious and healthy. Many of those include meat and / or dairy products.Para 2: someone tried to get a reaction online by proposing to set up a dog farm. OK, and this is relevant to what exactly?
The endless bringing up of the stupid "dog thou" argument as a supposed logic why nobody should eat any meat unless they eat all meat. It's been endlessly hashed and it's a rubbish argument at best. Posters on boards have regularly got this thrown at themPara 3: keeping dogs is nothing akin to soldiers going to battle. OK, am I missing something here?
What you referred to regard desensitisation - troops conditioned to battle / those who eat meat vs keep pets etcPara 4: No one I know....believes that the animals are...vile filthy things. The relevance related to soldiers conditioned for battle. The context was conditioning of the mind. If a farmer considers his livestock to be a commodity, then he accepts their slaughter as being a given. I personally cannot accept animals as being a commodity for slaughter.
You clearly gave that quote 'vile filthy things' in conjunction with eating meat and farming . That is absolute rubbish and baseless projection. Neither are Farmers conditioned with that idea or to believe that of any animal.Para 5: No humans do not eat all types of animals. Did I say they did?
Para 6: Agreed though it is disappointing (to me) that this is where we are.
Yes! - you are asking why most humans don't eat feking dog! Most humans dont eat all animals including dog and rat just the same way you dont eat all vegetation. No its not 'disappointing'(sic).
Look you can go through every line by line each and everytime. Please dont. I have simply responded to what you have written. You can take that as read. Thanks.0 -
There is a huge jump.
First - they are worded very differently
The first comment reads as conditional "can be"
The second reads as unconditional "do not"
The first statement is the closest to the usual veg*n dietetic dialogue from the Dietetic Association of America
As per the previous comment- that dialogue is abstracted from a paper written (and edited) by a number of veg*ns. The dietetic association itself was co founded by a Seveth Day Adventist - a religous group who are founded on vegetarian principles.
Not sure whether you intended the two statements to be different - the fact is they are.
Gozunda, Yes, the two sentences are worded differently but they convey the same thoughts. I am not sure what the Seventh Day Adventists are being included for here? I have never read anything by them. BTW I am an atheist.0 -
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Gozunda, Yes, the two sentences are worded differently but they convey the same thoughts. I am not sure what the Seventh Day Adventists are being included for here? I have never read anything by them. BTW I am an atheist.
They mean very different things. If you meant to say the same thing - why change it?
No need to read anything by the SDA or the Dietetic Association - that veg*n derived dietetic quote is all over many veg*n websites, with the 'American Dietetic Association', often paraphrased and prefaced with the word 'science' or expert ° as given in your first statement0 -
Today's diet depends heavily on exotic and often processed foods.
Vegans should not be singled out for this, as many are fully aware - by the overall philosophy of their life choices - of the need to reduce food kilometres and eat unrefined foods. So it's highly possible many vegans are the exception to this, errm, 'rule'.0 -
Can anyone, layman or scientist, define an animal's level of comprehension and, even more importantly, an animals level of emotions? Using throwaway phrases such as "they're not sitting around discussing the greater things in life" and "wouldn't have a clue" are too crude of descriptions to define animal psyche. Take a simple example of cows being separated from calves so that humans can avail of milk and milk-based products - to say that the cows are clueless would be a gross insult when witnessing that very distressing sight. ...... even if we do not yet have sufficient knowledge to know what these levels of feelings and intelligence are or how they relate to the human versions of these characteristics.
Can I ask, are you also opposed to human abortions on the same basis?0 -
Very true - the number of strict vegans from cradle to grave is currently small. But you could also argue the same health concerns for the number of people who consume foods cooked in a microwave oven rather than a conventional oven. The domestic microwave oven became available for most consumers as recently as 1980s. If all foods are analyzed at their fundamental constituent level, they consist of sugars, fats and amino acids, there is no difference, irrespective of source. The foods all enter into metabolic pathways and are broken down and used accordingly. Enough work has been done to demonstrate what a human needs for sustenance - not just the basic molecules but minerals, vitamins etc. The diet of a meat consumer and the diet of a vegan are no different at the molecular level. If I eat ice and you drink Ballygowan, we have both consumed H2O, nothing more, nothing less. A vegan diet requires nothing exotic that I am aware of. It also does not require highly processed foods. A vegan diet can be of a healthy form or of an unhealthy form just like a meat & dairy diet. There are plenty of fat vegans out there.
No doubt you can be a healthy vegan, it means importing a lot of tofu, jackfruit, making setan and taking supplements ets. Anecdotally;
My brother and 2 friends have recently embraced veganism. My brother almost 2 years ago. About 3 months ago he was on deaths door, looked a fright, white as a ghost so he started getting injections of vits and has recovered somewhat.
Another friend of mine started about 7 months ago, she wouldn't be a great eater anyway, picks at things etc. wouldn't be into eating the large amounts plants necessary to make up the difference. She's recently began to suffer from low bone density. She's also not strictly vegan, we were in Spain recently, where veganism doesn't really exist, so she had to eat something.
Another friend only started recently, 3 or 4 months and isn't that strict about it when eating out. She's also starting to look very washed out.
I eat some vegan meals in vegan restaurants in Dublin, I think as a society we consume too much meat. I noticed on a few occasions, there were a number of diners that I could have knocked down with a feather. I think having a healthy vegan diet can be extremely difficult and it obviously doesn't suit lots of people's biology.0 -
No doubt you can be a healthy vegan, it means importing a lot of tofu, jackfruit, making setan and taking supplements ets. Anecdotally;
My brother and 2 friends have recently embraced veganism. My brother almost 2 years ago. About 3 months ago he was on deaths door, looked a fright, white as a ghost so he started getting injections of vits and has recovered somewhat.
Another friend of mine started about 7 months ago, she wouldn't be a great eater anyway, picks at things etc. wouldn't be into eating the large amounts plants necessary to make up the difference. She's recently began to suffer from low bone density. She's also not strictly vegan, we were in Spain recently, where veganism doesn't really exist, so she had to eat something.
Another friend only started recently, 3 or 4 months and isn't that strict about it when eating out. She's also starting to look very washed out.
I eat some vegan meals in vegan restaurants in Dublin, I think as a society we consume too much meat. I noticed on a few occasions, there were a number of diners that I could have knocked down with a feather. I think having a healthy vegan diet can be extremely difficult and it obviously doesn't suit lots of people's biology.
An individual's metabolic and nutritional response to adopting a vegan diet is not something I feel in any way qualified to respond to. I have never researched this myself and I am unaware of peer-reviewed scientific articles that make a link between a balanced vegan diet and a negative health outcome. Maybe your friends & relatives need to list what their particular diet consists of - you can have, as with any other diet, a really bad or inadequate vegan diet. You say for instance that a friend of yours has had bone density issues - OK, but does her diet include a good source of calcium in it, e.g. broccoli? I also believe (with no reference to your own friends & relatives) that veganism is being adopted by many young lovelies merely as a currently hip & trendy lifestyle statement.
For me, veganism fits nicely with my own moral compass and very fortunately for me, I also have no craving for meat or dairy products. It is as simple and as complicated as that. Other than offering opinions now and again on a forum like this and behind a username, I never mention veganism or promulgate it from on high. Have I ever personally felt any health effect for being vegan - yes, feeling very tired for about three years and this was due to not realising that I was not inputting B12 at all. Got the B12 shots and was told to take a vitamin tablet daily - have done this and I have not had any other ill-effects. Vegan diet does not have to be made up of exotic food items - I have no inkling for jackfruit or seitan. I like tofu because it can be used in so many ways, but the reality is that it too is not necessary. What is needed is a balanced diet, and being aware of what a balanced diet is is key, nothing more.0 -
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