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US College Bribery Scandal

135

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    It's one thing getting into college and another passing the exams.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Kinda puts the University/College rankings in the ****ter.
    devlinio wrote: »
    This is being blown way out of proportion. The reaction is OTT.

    Tell that to any kid lost out on a place because some rich kid bought better results or faked more extra curricular activities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    At the top level this is the major reason why DT is despised by Washington.

    He can't be controlled.

    Cannot be bought.

    Are you high? Trump's political 'philosophy' is 100% based on making money for him and his and any nonsense he spouts is to get idiots on side, (those not directly profiting from his shenanigans).
    Ironically, his own Trump University was closed after multiple law suits.

    Also...
    Although Trump Jr. and his family are not accused of the fraud detailed in Tuesday’s charges, reports suggest it was perfectly legal money and connections that helped ease the first family’s way into Penn’s Wharton School and other elite colleges. The backdoor practice is common among wealthy families, college counselors say.
    https://www.philly.com/education/college-admission-scandal-trump-donald-jr-university-pennsylvania-wharton-kushner-20190314.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭metaoblivia


    Kinda puts the University/College rankings in the ****ter.



    Tell that to any kid lost out on a place because some rich kid bought better results or faked more extra curricular activities.

    I have a friend who had a 4.6 GPA, did community service, got great SAT scores, actually played on multiple sports teams and still got rejected from USC. This issue isn't overblown. It stings a lot of people who've been told that college admittance - and success in the US in general - is merit-based but always suspected that it actually wasn't. Now there's proof.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    razorblunt wrote: »
    Yale could do with an International Airport.
    Yal6


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Lori Loughlin's daughter was one of the beneficiaries of the brides to ensure a college place. Here's her in an earlier video stating she doesn't really care about school. Remember she would have got this place of poorer kids who would kill to get a place in college.

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/entertainment/2019/03/13/lori-loughlin-olivia-jade-university-southern-california-admission-scam-mxp-vpx.hln/video/playlists/top-news-videos/


    And in a bizarre twist of fate, the daughter was celebrating spring break with on the yacht of the chairman of the board of USC at the time to story broke. It's a shame she had to interrupt her holiday to go back home and face the music.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    devlinio wrote: »
    This is being blown way out of proportion. The reaction is OTT.

    I don't think it is. Similar things were going on the US and UK to varying levels amounting to wealth of your parents determining your likelihood to getting into university. Often this variable is the primary determinant. In terms of education there has to be a meritocracy or we'll simply afford places and opportunities to those less able because of their wealthy parents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    So during my time in America I noticed an article recycled that has particular relevance to this case. Ohio woman lied about her residency so her kids got a better education in a different school sector and as a result she has landed a jail sentence. Even though the kid's father lives in that district. We need to be honest about a few things in the education system. Privilege buys you advantage over the less privileged, the school you went to plays a major role in your academic success and if you received this privilege and cry discrimination when someone points this out then you're part of the problem.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654
    An Ohio mother's attempt to provide her daughters with a better education has landed her behind bars.

    Kelley Williams-Bolar was convicted of lying about her residency to get her daughters into a better school district.

    "It's overwhelming. I'm exhausted," she said. "I did this for them, so there it is. I did this for them."

    Williams-Bolar decided four years ago to send her daughters to a highly ranked school in neighboring Copley-Fairlawn School District.

    But it wasn't her Akron district of residence, so her children were ineligible to attend school there, even though her father lived within the district's boundaries.

    The school district accused Williams-Bolar of lying about her address, falsifying records and, when confronted, having her father file false court papers to get around the system.

    Williams-Bolar said she did it to keep her children safe and that she lived part-time with her dad.

    "When my home got broken into, I felt it was my duty to do something else," Williams-Bolar said.

    While her children are no longer attending schools in the Copley-Fairlawn District, school officials said she was cheating because her daughters received a quality education without paying taxes to fund it.

    "Those dollars need to stay home with our students," school district officials said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    So during my time in America I noticed an article recycled that has particular relevance to this case. Ohio woman lied about her residency so her kids got a better education in a different school sector and as a result she has landed a jail sentence. Even though the kid's father lives in that district. We need to be honest about a few things in the education system. Privilege buys you advantage over the less privileged, the school you went to plays a major role in your academic success and if you received this privilege and cry discrimination when someone points this out then you're part of the problem.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654

    The problem with the school system here is that public schools are funded by local property tax, which perpetuates inequality. If you are from a rich area, you by definition have better funded schools, creating better opportunities than people in poorer areas. It's a ludicrous system.

    The only thing worse is the growing movement to get rid of public schools altogether and replace them with private charter schools. This was pioneered in New Orleans after Katrina and is now complete there: private interests swooped into a lot of arenas of public life there after the hurricane and privatised so much of the community's resources with the connivance of big businesses and their bought political allies. Chicago under Rahm Emmanuel has tried to do the same thing but there's been much more pushback there, and with some luck the new regime will undo the damage that he and his administration did.

    The point that it all reinforces is that the real scandal here is not the illegal actions of the people scamming the system like the people who paid bribes or this woman falsifying her address. The real scandal is the system itself, which bestows every advantage going on the already very wealthy. It's why it always disgusts me when people say that they did not have any privilege growing up, or that they got where they have because of their own hard work.

    They are either lying, or completely oblivious. I'm not sure which is worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,032 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    The problem with the school system here is that public schools are funded by local property tax, which perpetuates inequality. If you are from a rich area, you by definition have better funded schools, creating better opportunities than people in poorer areas. It's a ludicrous system.


    They aren't solely funded by property tax though. Most of the funding comes from the state, the rest local, including property taxes, and a small amount from the federal government. Schools with a high level of children from low income families receive extra funding. What else should be done?

    The public school system in general here isn't great, even the best schools are still over crowded and not able to to give the time and resources necessary to support each child. I was even advised by a public school teacher I know to not send my child to one if I could avoid it. That's why my child goes to private school, I know that's a privilege many can't afford but that makes me an evil elitist l guess.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The problem with the school system here is that public schools are funded by local property tax, which perpetuates inequality. If you are from a rich area, you by definition have better funded schools, creating better opportunities than people in poorer areas. It's a ludicrous system.

    The only thing worse is the growing movement to get rid of public schools altogether and replace them with private charter schools. This was pioneered in New Orleans after Katrina and is now complete there: private interests swooped into a lot of arenas of public life there after the hurricane and privatised so much of the community's resources with the connivance of big businesses and their bought political allies. Chicago under Rahm Emmanuel has tried to do the same thing but there's been much more pushback there, and with some luck the new regime will undo the damage that he and his administration did.

    The point that it all reinforces is that the real scandal here is not the illegal actions of the people scamming the system like the people who paid bribes or this woman falsifying her address. The real scandal is the system itself, which bestows every advantage going on the already very wealthy. It's why it always disgusts me when people say that they did not have any privilege growing up, or that they got where they have because of their own hard work.

    They are either lying, or completely oblivious. I'm not sure which is worse.

    This one baffles me. In my university employment in Ireland, the UK and the US I heard the mantra "the students in these schools would have done just as well if they went to public schools". In other words A) they got their purely on their own merit and B) they think that the exorbitant school fees their parents paid were a complete waste off money.

    Either ignorant or lying as you say. Now we have research to suggest that state school students do better at university.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    They aren't solely funded by property tax though. Most of the funding comes from the state, the rest local, including property taxes, and a small amount from the federal government. Schools with a high level of children from low income families receive extra funding. What else should be done?

    The public school system in general here isn't great, even the best schools are still over crowded and not able to to give the time and resources necessary to support each child. I was even advised by a public school teacher I know to not send my child to one if I could avoid it. That's why my child goes to private school, I know that's a privilege many can't afford but that makes me an evil elitist l guess.

    So we shouldn't point out the inequality of opportunity in case we offend someone?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ Apollo Low Raise


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    So during my time in America I noticed an article recycled that has particular relevance to this case. Ohio woman lied about her residency so her kids got a better education in a different school sector and as a result she has landed a jail sentence. Even though the kid's father lives in that district.

    No, he doesn't. Read the article you posted. It's the woman's father (the children's grandfather) who lives in the district.

    She was still found guilty of lying about her address, falsifying records, and having her father file false court papers.

    Would you support somebody from Crumlin lying about where she lived and falsifying records so that she could send her kids to school in Blackrock?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    That's why my child goes to private school, I know that's a privilege many can't afford but that makes me an evil elitist l guess.

    Who said anything about evil? It's just a matter of identifying systems and processes that explain the state of things. Personally I think it can be done better. I would stop allocating public school funding based on property tax for one thing, and instead distribute it equally at a regional level. But that makes me an evil communist I guess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand



    Would you support somebody from Crumlin lying about where she lived and falsifying records so that she could send her kids to school in Blackrock?

    Yep.

    Everyone wants what's best for their kids.
    If I had to lie to get my children out of a deis school into a safer, more productive environment then I would.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ Apollo Low Raise


    Yep.

    Everyone wants what's best for their kids.
    If I had to lie to get my children out of a deis school into a safer, more productive environment then I would.

    Grand.

    But can't say you support one mother falsifying her address to get her children into a better school, but you don't support another mother bribing officials to get her children into a better university.

    "Everyone wants what's best for their kids" can be dragged out as a justification in both cases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Grand.

    But can't say you support one mother falsifying her address to get her children into a better school, but you don't support another mother bribing officials to get her children into a better university.

    "Everyone wants what's best for their kids" can be dragged out as a justification in both cases.

    You're comparing a very poor woman lying to get her kids into a better school to a rich woman whose kids already went to a private school lying to get her children into a mediocre college? The school you attend isn't based on merit but a lottery of parental wealth. The university you attend is based on merit but also parental wealth in terms of access to quality education. University entry should be based on merit. I'd say the same if a poorer mother was lying about her child's grades to get into university however the school you attend is a circumstance of birth and an accident of geography.

    First of all from the point of view of the child I believe all children deserve an equal opportunity based on merit. In other words children whose parents pay for them to enter private school and children whose parents who lie to get them into private school are not more or less entitled to a good education. Neither child did anything to warrant or disqualify them from a better school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ Apollo Low Raise


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You're comparing a very poor woman lying to get her kids into a better school to a rich woman whose kids already went to a private school lying to get her children into a mediocre college?

    I'm pointing out the inconsistency in defending one parent who lied and falsified records to get her children into a better school, while condemning another parent who bribed officials to get her child into a better college.

    Do you believe that poor people have a right to act dishonestly, while wealthier people should be held to a different standard?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    They aren't solely funded by property tax though. Most of the funding comes from the state, the rest local, including property taxes, and a small amount from the federal government. Schools with a high level of children from low income families receive extra funding. What else should be done?

    I meant to address this C. I think the key to helping more is education. For example you rightly acknowledge that your child wouldn't have done as well in public school. I agree with you. The research indicates that the school one attends determines his/her grades and therefore access to third level education. We know for example that comparing two children, both with A grades but one public school educated and one private school educated, it will be the public school child that is superior academically and will generally do better in university. In other words the private-public divide in education isn't giving us a good idea of who deserves to go to university. It's just giving us a good idea of whose parents have more money.

    We need to realise as you seem to, that private schooling will usually award the child better results than if they went public. Universities need to reflect that in their admission policies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,032 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I meant to address this C. I think the key to helping more is education. For example you rightly acknowledge that your child wouldn't have done as well in public school. I agree with you. The research indicates that the school one attends determines his/her grades and therefore access to third level education. We know for example that comparing two children, both with A grades but one public school educated and one private school educated, it will be the public school child that is superior academically and will generally do better in university. In other words the private-public divide in education isn't giving us a good idea of who deserves to go to university. It's just giving us a good idea of whose parents have more money.

    We need to realise as you seem to, that private schooling will usually award the child better results than if they went public. Universities need to reflect that in their admission policies.

    I wasn't too worried about the academics, she would have done just as well, she is already a few grade levels ahead in her reading and vocabulary etc. but I have no illusions that us paying for her schooling have contributed to that. It's because she is just very smart (yes I know, all parents say that but she is!) and I've always encouraged reading and she enjoys it.

    I just know for her personally, coming from a kindergarten class of 12 kids, a class size of 30 or even 40 just wouldn't work because she needs to be challenged. I'm not trying to buy her "smarts" or good grades but trying to give her the best chance to thrive


    This is also a problem for kids who might struggle in some areas in public school. It's easy for them though get left behind when there aren't enough resources to help each child as an individual. A smart or even mediocre kid with parents who are involved in their schooling will do well in any learning environment IMO.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    I wasn't too worried about the academics, she would have done just as well, she is already a few grade levels ahead in her reading and vocabulary etc. but I have no illusions that us paying for her schooling have contributed to that. It's because she is just very smart (yes I know, all parents say that but she is!) and I've always encouraged reading and she enjoys it.

    I have no doubt your kid is smart C and fair play for engaging in her education. Please take that sentence in isolation and don't let the following detract from that genuine compliment.

    There's no way your kid would do as well in a class with 30 or 40 people. There's no way deep down that you don't think the school makes a difference to your child's potential grade. You acknowledge as much when you say
    "I just know for her personally, coming from a kindergarten class of 12 kids, a class size of 30 or even 40 just wouldn't work because she needs to be challenged"
    and then contradict yourself when you say "
    ]I wasn't too worried about the academics, she would have done just as well

    How do you reconcile this?

    I just know for her personally, coming from a kindergarten class of 12 kids, a class size of 30 or even 40 just wouldn't work because she needs to be challenged. I'm not trying to buy her "smarts" or good grades but trying to give her the best chance to thrive

    Fair play for helping her. I'm not attacking you for doing so.
    This is also a problem for kids who might struggle in some areas in public school. It's easy for them though get left behind when there aren't enough resources to help each child as an individual. A smart or even mediocre kid with parents who are involved in their schooling will do well in any learning environment IMO.

    It's a problem for every kid. Trust me I've worked with lots of kids in university. You're talking about being smart but it's also about being confident. Right now in our group there's a master's student whose exceptionally bright and picks up things fast but lacked any sort of confidence. Another student did his undergrad in Oxford and was educated in a top school. He's slower to pick things up but generally does better on exams because he has a confidence far in excess of his ability. It's not just about intelligence.

    You make the point about reading to your kids. Fair play again but do you think that's really the single variable that's holding back some kids? Kids who are smart or mediocre in the state sector aren't only competing against other kids in the state sector they're competing against kids with far more advantage in the private sector.

    You said you like reading. Well can you give me your opinion on the actual research on this topic? Research from Durham university shows that when you account for family background, gender or even prior attainment that private school students were in receipt of nearly two thirds of a grade above state school pupils. Simply based on the school they went to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Would you support somebody from Crumlin lying about where she lived and falsifying records so that she could send her kids to school in Blackrock?

    There are plenty of 2nd generation parents around south Dublin using the granny's address to get access to their old school, rather than their local school.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Operation Varsity Blues is on everyone’s discussion table here in the states. The outrage from regular folks is not so much the bribery/pay offs (that happens, and then there are legacy spots, big donations to the universities, sports spots, professor and university employee's children getting a free ride into the university, etc) but rather the taking away a spot from a more deserving student. My youngest was accepted into an elite university in Washington, DC. Her jealous high school classmates are claiming we bought her way into the university. We had nothing to do with her application and couldn’t even afford a bribe, but it’s funny how current events jumps into people’s minds right from the get-go.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I'm pointing out the inconsistency in defending one parent who lied and falsified records to get her children into a better school, while condemning another parent who bribed officials to get her child into a better college.
    Do you believe that poor people have a right to act dishonestly, while wealthier people should be held to a different standard?

    Hey Vox I thought I'd replied to this sorry. I think college and school are a bit different.

    School is what you go to to provide the education needed to enter college/university.

    The entry criteria to university the grades you receive in university so their based on merit. The high school you go to depends on how relatively well off your parents are. People may kid themselves and say well my son/daughter would have done exactly the same in a far worse school or their child is more intelligent than the rest anyway but study after study disproves this. It's the school you go too and more specifically it's the relative income of your parents that determine your ability to enter university.

    Rich kids already have a large advantage over poor kids regardless of their intelligence. A poor mother trying to get her kid up to par with kids that have an unfair head start is a far cry from a mother buying her kid's way into university when they already had every chance to do that (and failed).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭poisonated


    Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    poisonated wrote: »
    Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.
    Yup, same training.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    poisonated wrote: »
    Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.
    Yup, same training.

    Same training? You mean the training you do to be a teacher or the education you receive in the subject you teach.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Yup, same training.
    poisonated wrote: »
    Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.

    Either way guys I don't know how this works out in Ireland but studies in the UK do demonstrate private school teachers have better education.

    http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp94.pdf
    We find that independent schools are employing a disproportionate
    share of teachers in Britain, relative to the number of pupils they educate, and that the
    gap between the independent and state sector has been increasing. Independent school
    teachers are more likely than state school teachers to possess post-graduate
    qualifications, and to be specialists in shortage subjects.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,143 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Is anyone truly shocked by this? :pac:
    Corruption every where.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Same training? You mean the training you do to be a teacher or the education you receive in the subject you teach.
    Teacher training.

    I would imagine a private school with higher expectations and a culture of achievement and aiming for the most prestigious third level institutions, brings out the best in teachers.

    I went to a school which lacked such a culture and you could just sense the teachers giving up the ghost because they were met with such apathy. I know they'd have fared far better in a different environment.


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