YouTube announces it will no longer recommend conspiracy videos

Cheerful Spring2 · 14-04-2020 1:27pm

The Nal wrote: »

Like I don't really care if 9/11 was an inside job or not. I've no skin in the game. In theory its more than possible. Same for the JFK assassination. I would love for that to be proven as a conspiracy. But theres no evidence..

They're plenty of evidence. You prefer to believe the official narrative even though there dozens of anomalies that make little sense.

Dohnjoe · 14-04-2020 1:39pm

nullzero wrote: »

My argument is that determining if something is "true" based solely upon received wisdom or popular opinion and then colouring anything outside that paradigm as intrinsically "dangerous" and subsequently celebrating its banning from any platform is morally questionable.

There's no grey area in these related cases. Is 5G linked to Coronavirus? no compelling evidence for that, therefore it's accepted that it's completely false (until proven otherwise)

The Nal · 14-04-2020 1:45pm

nullzero wrote: »

I feel, and maybe you are inherently opposed to this notion, that most people are intelligent enough to understand when something isn't worthy of their attention and make an informed decision about how the appropriate things they watch or read on the Internet. Which is to say that if something is ridiculous it should be self evident.

I am opposed to that notion unfortunately yeah. There are a lot of thickos out there.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 1:45pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There are cases of Muslims being attacked directly due to the conspiracy theory in India. Underlying tensions aside, the theory is completely false and puts people's lives at risk.

The conspiracy theory not the viewing of videos relating to the conspiracy theory.

How this situation relates to other conspiracy theories online is if we're being honest is quite tentative.

This conspiracy theory is rooted in existing islamophobia that exists in India. The theory appearing online isn't the cause of the violence against Muslims in India at the moment, there is already an appetite for this type discrimination in that society, which is a FACT, you wishing to align this situation with other conspiracy theories that appear online is really and Apples and oranges type situation. They do not relate to each other.

You are quite correct though, this situation is abhorrent and those responsible are reprehensible in the extreme. However it is not acceptable to state "underlying tensions aside" as it completely ignores the context of the situation and if you are being honest I think you know quite well that is what you are doing.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 1:47pm

The Nal wrote: »

I am opposed to that notion unfortunately yeah. There are a lot of thickos out there.

And you are not a "thicko" I take it? You see yourself as something of an intellectual by comparison I would assume.

Thankfully you're here to determine what is suitable for consumption by other individuals.

Cheerful Spring2 · 14-04-2020 1:47pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's no grey area in these related cases. Is 5G linked to Coronavirus? no compelling evidence for that, therefore it's accepted that it's completely false (until proven otherwise)

There a crowd of people online who think the virus is a hoax (sillyness) others think 5G made the disease (sillyness) others think 5G transforms the virus and makes it more dangerous (unproven) however still likely to be nonsense as 184 countries has the virus and most countries have no 5G and everyone who gets it seems to be affected the same way

Overall the 5G and Covid-19 conspiracy is fake news.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 1:50pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's no grey area in these related cases. Is 5G linked to Coronavirus? no compelling evidence for that, therefore it's accepted that it's completely false (until proven otherwise)

Accepted by people who share your opinion. The opinion you believe should not be deviated from in any way shape or form. Until somebody agrees with you they should not have a right to express their opinion? This is the gist of what you're saying here from my perspective.

Dohnjoe · 14-04-2020 1:51pm

nullzero wrote: »

The theory appearing online isn't the cause of the violence against Muslims in India at the moment

A man was beaten directly due to the conspiracy. Those that beat him directly referenced it.

The fake information gave them an excuse to attack someone and severely beat them, in a case where they might not have done so. In a country with high tensions between those groups, then the spread of a conspiracy like that can directly result in assaults and deaths

Can you give any good reason why related social media platforms should not attempt to mitigate this false conspiracy on their sites? If not, then there's no debate, we're in agreement.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 1:53pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A man was beaten directly due to the conspiracy. Those that beat him directly referenced it.

The fake information gave them an excuse to attack someone and severely beat them, in a case where they might not have done so. In a country with high tensions between those groups, then the spread of a conspiracy like that can directly result in assaults and deaths

Can you give any good reason why related social media platforms should not attempt to mitigate this false conspiracy on their sites? If not, then there's no debate, we're in agreement.

The conspiracy is being communicated largely via posters and word of mouth. Lest we forget the technological infrastructure available to poorer people in India is severely limited which is a big issue in this instance as these clearly aren't educated people spreading these ideas.

Tech companies can't mitigate against this because it is taking place outside their sphere of influence. Your point is moot.

Dohnjoe · 14-04-2020 1:56pm

nullzero wrote: »

Accepted by people who share your opinion

It's not an opinion, it's a fact (until proven otherwise)

There is no valid evidence that 5G causes Corona. A large consensus of scientists supports this.

Likewise, there is no consensus by scientists that 5G causes Corona.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 1:57pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's not an opinion, it's a fact (until proven otherwise)

There is no valid evidence that 5G causes Corona. A large consensus of scientists supports this.

Likewise, there is no consensus by scientists that 5G causes Corona.

I really don't take any interest in these theories. What I have a problem with is people not being allowed to express them.

Dohnjoe · 14-04-2020 2:03pm

nullzero wrote: »

I really don't take any interest in these theories. What I have a problem with is people not being allowed to express them.

If you have no problem with people spreading harmful false information (due to whatever world views you have) that's your opinion

I believe you've pointed out that social media platforms have a responsibility to limit or stop the spread of potentially dangerous false information on their platforms - if that's the case, then we're in agreement

The Nal · 14-04-2020 2:15pm

nullzero wrote: »

And you are not a "thicko" I take it? You see yourself as something of an intellectual by comparison I would assume.

I'm not a thicko no. I don't read a conspiracy theory online about 5G and then go out and try to start fires. I don't watch videos about infidels and then go and bomb a load of kids.

nullzero wrote: »

I really don't take any interest in these theories. What I have a problem with is people not being allowed to express them.

People are allowed to express whatever views they want. If someone wants to rant about 5G or Bush orchestrating 9/11 they can do it out in the street. They can get thousands together to do it if they want and march around town.

But if you did it in a pub or a restaurant you would be turfed out. Same for social media platforms. Private companies.

On that, I did laugh a little when the "free speech" crowd were against the blasphemy law. Great banter.

Cheerful Spring2 · 14-04-2020 2:17pm

nullzero wrote: »

I really don't take any interest in these theories. What I have a problem with is people not being allowed to express them.

Taken to the logical extreme 5G conspiracy is nonsense. I agree with you somewhat because Youtube tried to ban 9/11 conspiracy broadcasts too. I’m torn on this because i think Flat earth and 5G theories can be potentially dangerous and lead people down the wrong path. We have enough credible evidence the earth is not flat and 5G did not cause covid-19- but with 9/11 the info solid to doubt the official narrative and yet Youtube tries to hide the 9/11 conspiracy videos by algorithms. Youtube has also been demonetizing channels who don’t side with the US government's official position about overseas wars. It’s a slippery slope to censorship and the getting rid of alternative opinions.

Cheerful Spring2 · 14-04-2020 2:38pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

If you have no problem with people spreading harmful false information (due to whatever world views you have) that's your opinion

I believe you've pointed out that social media platforms have a responsibility to limit or stop the spread of potentially dangerous false information on their platforms - if that's the case, then we're in agreement

Facebook collaborated with the Atlantic council (US intelligence think tank) to suppress material on their website. They’re policing all info that conflicts with the US government power position in the world.

Not all conspiracies are the same, some are better than others, but the restrictions are the same for all. I have a dispute when YouTube hasn’t completed the research and just bans everything based on what they determine is not true.

It's a legitimate concern the social media companies are going to be used to censor topics.

The Nal · 14-04-2020 2:55pm

Social media companies aren't age restricted remember. So idiots posting about drinking bleach can cause real harm.

If I started a youtube channel, got a load of followers and then told them to go out and stare directly at the sun to battle Coronavirus I would fully expected to be censored. Rightly so.

Dohnjoe · 14-04-2020 3:06pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I have a dispute when YouTube hasn’t completed the research and just bans everything based on what they determine is not true.

It's a legitimate concern the social media companies are going to be used to censor topics.

Case by case basis. Also they don't always just "ban" stuff.

With anti-vax videos, they demonitized them

With e.g. certain conspiracy videos, they changed the algorithm so they appear further down the searches. They also changed the recommended feed algorithm, so it recommended less similar conspiracy videos

Due to the severity of this pandemic, they are being extremely strict with Coronavirus videos

Mistakes and misjudgments can be made, but most are relatively common sense approaches. Likewise, Boards.ie bans posters every day for all sorts of infractions, and most people understand that.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 3:23pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

If you have no problem with people spreading harmful false information (due to whatever world views you have) that's your opinion

I believe you've pointed out that social media platforms have a responsibility to limit or stop the spread of potentially dangerous false information on their platforms - if that's the case, then we're in agreement

You suggested that the violence against Muslims in India could be mitigated by the actions of social media platforms when they clearly had no demonstrable influence over what is going on in that country as the conspiracy theory in question is not being spread primarily via the Internet.

I have made my position clear on the dissemination of these ideas, people should be free to have their say and others the freedom to appropriate them in their own way. The notions being put forth here by some are that any "alternative" ideas should never be conceived of let alone expressed which is an abhorrent idea, where does this type of censorship end? When it's nonsense theories who cares? The problem is that censorship can be normalised in this very fashion, this being the thin end of this particular wedge. That is the point I am arguing.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 3:28pm

The Nal wrote: »

Social media companies aren't age restricted remember. So idiots posting about drinking bleach can cause real harm.

If I started a youtube channel, got a load of followers and then told them to go out and stare directly at the sun to battle Coronavirus I would fully expected to be censored. Rightly so.

This is really alarmist nonsense that's intended to instill a sense of fear in relation to these topics.

I find this type of disingenuous hyperbole insulting and so should everyone who reads it.

King Mob · 14-04-2020 3:42pm

nullzero wrote: »

This is really alarmist nonsense that's intended to instill a sense of fear in relation to these topics.

I find this type of disingenuous hyperbole insulting and so should everyone who reads it.

Which part of that is nonsense?
There are many people who are selling fake cures and treatments for things. Now they are taking advantage of the corona virus.

One such fake cure is Miracle (Or other M word) Mineral Solution. This, when used as directed becomes a bleach.

Recently on this forum, a person who profited from selling this fake cure was used as a source for some conspiracy and anti science claims.

People genuinely believe in these fake cures and are harmed by them. The people who profit from these fake cure spread misinformation to help them get more profit. These sales people use conspiracy narratives as a sales tactic.

Ipso · 14-04-2020 3:55pm

nullzero wrote: »

Accepted by people who share your opinion. The opinion you believe should not be deviated from in any way shape or form. Until somebody agrees with you they should not have a right to express their opinion? This is the gist of what you're saying here from my perspective.

People can express their opinions in other private forums like infowars. As long as they don’t violate Alex’s terms of service (which I don’t hear many complain about).
Anyway isn’t youtube still allowing these videos, but treating the with the respect, or lack thereof, they deserve.

The Nal · 14-04-2020 4:02pm

Ipso wrote: »

People can express their opinions in other private forums like infowars. As long as they don’t violate Alex’s terms of service (which I don’t hear many complain about).

Exactly. From Infowars' own Ts & Cs.

"It is not censorship if you violate the rules and your post is deleted."

Try go disagreeing with Jim Corr or Gemma on Twitter and see how long they tolerate you're viewpoint. Free speech, got to love it.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 4:16pm

King Mob wrote: »

Which part of that is nonsense?
There are many people who are selling fake cures and treatments for things. Now they are taking advantage of the corona virus.

One such fake cure is Miracle (Or other M word) Mineral Solution. This, when used as directed becomes a bleach.

Recently on this forum, a person who profited from selling this fake cure was used as a source for some conspiracy and anti science claims.

People genuinely believe in these fake cures and are harmed by them. The people who profit from these fake cure spread misinformation to help them get more profit. These sales people use conspiracy narratives as a sales tactic.

The idea of telling people to stare at the sun is alarmist nonsense. It is also the proposed content of the proposed channel as opposed something being sold through the proposed channel.

If people are selling snake oil and it is against a platforms terms of service they should be stopped. I'm not arguing that point. My issue, as I have outlined clearly is the idea that all "alternative" thought should be censored and not given an opportunity to be shared anywhere.

Are there people who are gullible enough to be taken in by absolutely anything? Yes of course there are. Do these people exist in large enough numbers to pose a significant problem? Not a hope.

What is being proposed here is that anything that deviates from the "norm" is inherently bad and leads to people being wronged or damaged in some fashion. People are too stupid to be selective in what they believe and will follow anyone who says anything to them and will contribute to the nefarious financial plans set up by conspiracy theorists who's only goal is to create massive wealth for themselves at the expense of the gullible masses.

This reads like there is some kind of conspiracy theorist elite planning to con stupid people out of their money, because the average person is too stupid to do anything other than acquiesce to the wishes of these awful conspiracy theorists and make them filthy rich.

The Nal · 14-04-2020 4:22pm

nullzero wrote: »

The idea of telling people to stare at the sun is alarmist nonsense.

Is it more nonsensical than telling people to drink bleach or to blow yourself up? Because there are/were accounts on youtube telling people to do that.

Is that ok? Wheres the line here?

nullzero · 14-04-2020 4:23pm

The Nal wrote: »

Is it more nonsensical than telling people to drink bleach or to blow yourself up? Because there are/were accounts on youtube telling people to do that.

Is that ok? Wheres the line here?

Have I stated at any point that I think those type of things are acceptable?

King Mob · 14-04-2020 4:28pm

nullzero wrote: »

The idea of telling people to stare at the sun is alarmist nonsense. It is also the proposed content of the proposed channel as opposed something being sold through the proposed channel.

But why is it alarmist nonsense?
We have channels and sources were you are told to drink bleach to cure the corona virus.
Staring at the sun and drinking bleach are about the same level of silly things to do.

I'm sure Nal could also dress up his staring at the sun idea with similar marketing as MMS.

Not every everyone is selling MMS, they are just repeating the idea because they genuinely believe it.

nullzero wrote: »

My issue, as I have outlined clearly is the idea that all "alternative" thought should be censored and not given an opportunity to be shared anywhere.

....

What is being proposed here is that anything that deviates from the "norm" is inherently bad and leads to people being wronged or damaged in some fashion. People are too stupid to be selective in what they believe and will follow anyone who says anything to them and will contribute to the nefarious financial plans set up by conspiracy theorists who's only goal is to create massive wealth for themselves at the expense of the gullible masses.

...

This reads like there is some kind of conspiracy theorist elite planning to con stupid people out of their money, because the average person is too stupid to do anything other than acquiesce to the wishes of these awful conspiracy theorists and make them filthy rich.

No one has suggested any of these things.
You seem to be engaging the hyperbole you were accusing others of...

The Nal · 14-04-2020 4:29pm

nullzero wrote: »

Have I stated at any point that I think those type of things are acceptable?

Course not, but there clearly needs to be a line somewhere. Where?

In my opinion, intentionally spreading potentially harmful medical advice is a line.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 4:33pm

King Mob wrote: »

But why is it alarmist nonsense?
We have channels and sources were you are told to drink bleach to cure the corona virus.
Staring at the sun and drinking bleach are about the same level of silly things to do.

I'm sure Nal could also dress up his staring at the sun idea with similar marketing as MMS.

Not every everyone is selling MMS, they are just repeating the idea because they genuinely believe it.

No one has suggested any of these things.
You seem to be engaging the hyperbole you were accusing others of...

Let's attempt to simplify things then...

If somebody is posting videos about conspiracy theories but not selling harmful products should they be allowed to continue posting their videos?

EDIT. I have ended another post clarifying that I am not defending people selling harmful products etc... I think this is an important fact to point out before I get painted as someone who defends that type of behaviour.

nullzero · 14-04-2020 4:36pm

The Nal wrote: »

Course not, but there clearly needs to be a line somewhere. Where?

In my opinion, intentionally spreading potentially harmful medical advice is a line.

The answer is obvious. Those selling harmful products should be instructed to to cease the selling them. Harmful medical advise should also be ceased.

These aren't areas I've been defending as it happens, before this becomes the perception of what's being discussed.

King Mob · 14-04-2020 4:45pm

nullzero wrote: »

Let's attempt to simplify things then...

If somebody is posting videos about conspiracy theories but not selling harmful products should they be allowed to continue posting their videos?

It depends. If they are still promoting the idea that corona virus can be cured by staring at the sun or drinking bleach, then they should at the very least not be allowed to monetise their videos on that subject.
Also their videos should not be promoted with the same weight as medical doctors and actual experts

I don't believe they should be prevented or barred from making videos though. If Youtube bans them, they can host their own videos else where.

Could you please go back and explain why you found Nal's example of staring at the sun so alarmist and nonsense compared to the real example of drinking bleach?

YouTube announces it will no longer recommend conspiracy videos

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