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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭RoamingDoc


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Where you live is not one of the protected categories under employment law so you are free do discriminate on that basis unless it contravenes one of the actual protected categories.
    For example (and correct me if I am wrong here as I am no expert) if I refuse to hire anyone from (say) Swords then I am not breaching legislation. If however the reason I am not hiring anyone from Swords is that the town is full of (say) Swiss people then I am breaching legislation.

    Sorry, poorly phrased on my part. I meant more along the lines of a scholarship only available to people from India, Canada, Sudan, etc. etc.
    I would have been more correct to say nationality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    silverharp wrote: »
    twitter keep shoving this "advert" at me. when will people push back against this attempt at social engineering which has nothing to do with equality. its kind of amusing that this is such a lefty position given that assuming Microsoft even care its just so they can have more corporate drones to pick from and keep their payroll costs down

    https://twitter.com/MicrosoftEDU/status/1110907434472747011

    I'm sure there are certain folk in Microsoft that truly care and more than likely they are some HR function looking to make a job for themselves.

    Most big companies I find only care about the green, so stuff like this is just bankable virtue signalling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I had posted a couple pages back about a female only scholarship. I emailed the contact to seek clarification. I heard nothing for 8 days and emailed again, commenting that a failure to reply would lead me to seek answers elsewhere. I have pasted the emails below, snipping identifiable info. I think the response was weak and danced around the subject. What do you think?

    The fact that there is a financial incentive open only to females is absolutely discrimination, regardless of how many male interns they say they have.

    Email 1:

    Dear SNIP,

    I happened to come across the career jet listing for "Cork Women in Technology Scholarship" https://www.careerjet.ie/jobview/e546d4d42d225a4d539e6381303b9f3d.html . The criteria states that you must be a female student to apply. I was hoping you could clarify the gender requirements for the scholarship, because it is at odds with the McAfee anti-discrimination statement at the foot of the listing, which states:

    "McAfee prohibits discrimination based on race, color, religion, GENDER, national origin, age, disability, veteran status, marital status, pregnancy, gender expression or identity, sexual orientation or any other legally protected status."

    My bolding and caps above.

    While I applaud efforts made to encourage females into STEM, I do not support discrimination against males to achieve this goal. Are males prohibited from applying for the scholarship, or are they simply not being told that they could apply?

    I eagerly await your response.

    Regards,

    Ghost



    Email 2:

    Dear SNIP,

    I emailed you 8 days ago to seek clarification on the "Cork Women in Technology Scholarship" and have had no response thus far. I wanted to reach out one more time to provide an opportunity for comment on what appears to be blatant discrimination based on Gender. In the event I receive no response over the next seven days, I will endeavour to have my question satisfied by contacting the HEA and the DoJE.

    Regards,

    Ghost



    Response 7 days later.

    Dear Mr Ghost,

    We refer to your emails of 2 April and 10 April requesting information on one of our scholarship programmes. I hope this email provides the necessary clarification.

    You have referred to the McAfee anti-discrimination statement which, in compliance with Irish law, prohibits discrimination on the basis of gender. We note that, like McAfee, you support encouraging females into STEM and furthermore you do not support discrimination. Please be assured that McAfee is committed to non-discrimination.

    The criteria for applying for the scholarship are as set out in the official literature and it is open to female students only and subject to the other criteria as set out. Male students are not included in this particular scholarship programme as males are much more likely to take up the opportunities which we can offer in this area. The scholarship programme represents one of our efforts to positively promote STEM to females who are under represented. It does not restrict access of males to our business. Our internships are taken up predominantly by male students.

    This initiative is not at odds with our anti-discrimination statement or our values, but rather positively promotes them.

    If you have any further questions please let me know.

    Kind regards,

    SNIP

    That's BS of the highest order. This is an amazing reversal of ideas:
    Please be assured that McAfee is committed to non-discrimination.
    The criteria for applying for the scholarship are as set out in the official literature and it is open to female students only

    So we're anti-discrimination but will discriminate based on gender because we think it's for a good reason.

    Finally:
    This initiative is not at odds with our anti-discrimination statement or our values, but rather positively promotes them.

    We're discriminating based on gender and we stand by that but this action acts against discrimination.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    RoamingDoc wrote: »
    I think this may be correct.
    I know that there are some scholarships that apply based on where people are from so would be inherently viewed as discrimination for employment purposes but are fine.

    But there's more than just legal guidelines to follow. I'm an academic within a universities in the UK and US. I sit on a board called the Athena Swan board. We deal with promoting equality of opportunity in science for potential scientists in terms of gender, class and race.

    We're not in favour of positive discrimination because we're scientists and not stupid. The Athena Swan awards certificates to institutions based on promotion of it's ideals. It actually frowns upon stunts like this and has been known to put pressure on funding bodies to withdraw funding. I'm going to forward this on to them to see if there's a similar organisation in Ireland.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    A more relevant piece of legislation might be the equal status act http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/enacted/en/html


    This prohibits discrimination in the provision of goods and services, the provision of accommodation and access to education, on any of the nine grounds.


    Outlaws discrimination in all services that are generally available to the public whether provided by the state or the private sector. These include facilities for refreshment, entertainment, banking, insurance, grants, credit facilities, transport and travel services. Discrimination in the disposal of premises, provision of accommodation, admission to, access to and conditions of participation in educational courses or establishments are also prohibited subject to some exemptions.


    There may be outs here in the exemptions when you see the discrimination that schools are perfectly legally able to enforce (religion/sex etc)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭RoamingDoc


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    There may be outs here in the exemptions when you see the discrimination that schools are perfectly legally able to enforce (religion/sex etc)

    I think that there are.

    Doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of men who could benefit from something like that because of background etc. and may have difficulty accessing other options.

    As mentioned above with the Athena Swan programme, surely it's better to work towards an admirable goal without "positive" discrimination?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    But there's more than just legal guidelines to follow. I'm an academic within a universities in the UK and US. I sit on a board called the Athena Swan board. We deal with promoting equality of opportunity in science for potential scientists in terms of gender, class and race.

    We're not in favour of positive discrimination because we're scientists and not stupid. The Athena Swan awards certificates to institutions based on promotion of it's ideals. It actually frowns upon stunts like this and has been known to put pressure on funding bodies to withdraw funding. I'm going to forward this on to them to see if there's a similar organisation in Ireland.

    Pretty much all Irish 3rd level institutions participate in Athena Swan. UCC certainly does:

    https://www.ucc.ie/en/athenaswan/asucc/


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    RoamingDoc wrote: »
    I think that there are.

    Doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of men who could benefit from something like that because of background etc. and may have difficulty accessing other options.

    No argument from me. I was just wondering on the legalities so was doing a bit of research.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Pretty much all Irish 3rd level institutions participate in Athena Swan. UCC certainly does:

    https://www.ucc.ie/en/athenaswan/asucc/

    Well then they're f-ed. I'll send a mail on today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    By the way Ghost in cases like this previously the gender discriminating scholarships were later opened up to all genders.

    https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2019/02/02/opening-up-women-only-scholarships-undermines-the-fight-for-equality/


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well then they're f-ed. I'll send a mail on today.

    I'd be interested to see their responses, if you can share them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I'd be interested to see their responses, if you can share them.

    Indeed I will. I'm not actually sure what is holding women back from STEM careers anyway?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed I will. I'm not actually sure what is holding women back from STEM careers anyway?

    Sexism innit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed I will. I'm not actually sure what is holding women back from STEM careers anyway?

    men :D

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭Diemos


    I was part of an interview panel for an IT role, at the third stage we had 2 candidates, a guy and a girl.
    Both equal in terms of skillset and cultural fit, the question came up "what's the next step to ensure we get the right candidate?" to which the woman from HR just announced "We are hiring the girl, there are too many guys in the IT department."

    I was stunned, just because you put 'positive' in front of something doesn't mean it's not discrimination.

    I've also seen teams from other countries who have been 'on-shored' who will all row in together to help the guys resolve an issue but leave the girls on the team to fix problems by themselves, disgusting attitude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    No it's actually lack of women picking these subjects.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed I will. I'm not actually sure what is holding women back from STEM careers anyway?


    The patriarchy obviously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    dont forget internalised misogyny

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No it's actually lack of women picking these subjects.

    And they used to pick them more. When I studied computer science in DIT in the 1980s, there were about 40% women in my course.

    Nowadays it's down to less than half that. For whatever reasons, there just isn't the same interest from women now.

    I think one likely major reason is that the economy has improved greatly. In particular, unemployment rates now are a small fraction of what they were in the mid-80s, at around 17%. Tech courses afforded greater employment opportunities at a time when it could be very hard to find a decent job. But now there are more choices.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    The patriarchy obviously.

    You mean the master hive mind that all men are connected to and which decisions on male behavior for all are made?


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    You mean the master hive mind that all men are connected to and which decisions on male behavior for all are made?

    Now your getting it ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,020 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I wonder would this be a funny meme if this was the other way around!
    57987839_436873503524764_6814683720750989312_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent.fdub1-2.fna&oh=bd02cbb3663fb7060d42b48f5bcdc9ce&oe=5D4687E6


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    I wonder would this be a funny meme if this was the other way around!

    That reminds of one of the scenes in the final season of Friends where Rachael is really pissed off with Ross because he didn't have sex with her. He didn't want to (as she was in a vunerable state and he "respected her too much") but pretty much suggested he should have tended to her needs regardless of the fact that he said no and didn't want to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    And they used to pick them more. When I studied computer science in DIT in the 1980s, there were about 40% women in my course.

    Nowadays it's down to less than half that. For whatever reasons, there just isn't the same interest from women now.

    I think one likely major reason is that the economy has improved greatly. In particular, unemployment rates now are a small fraction of what they were in the mid-80s, at around 17%. Tech courses afforded greater employment opportunities at a time when it could be very hard to find a decent job. But now there are more choices.

    "back in my day" in dcu , the biology course was female dominated,the chemistry course was more even, the physics and electrical engineering were highly male dominated, computer applications too. i'd imagine its similar enough today??

    at the end of the day there is only so much talent be it men or women, there doesnt appear to be any shortage of women in pharmacy, medicine, optometrists law etc. either chasing $$ or more social cachet than working in a "factory"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,130 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    silverharp wrote: »
    "back in my day" in dcu , the biology course was female dominated,the chemistry course was more even, the physics and electrical engineering were highly male dominated, computer applications too. i'd imagine its similar enough today??

    at the end of the day there is only so much talent be it men or women, there doesnt appear to be any shortage of women in pharmacy, medicine, optometrists law etc. either chasing $$ or more social cachet than working in a "factory"

    Not for the first time, Feminists have been misrepresenting the statistics, in this case women in STEM, the following is an excellent article on it, Quillette is a fine source of articles I have to say.

    https://quillette.com/2019/03/02/lies-damned-lies-and-stem-statistics/

    The difficulty for Feminists, male and female alike, is that a lot of the dominant narratives, ie The debunked Wage Gap, the one sided Domestic Abuse debate amongst others, is that they do not stand up to critical analysis...

    What would be very interesting to know is how many Womens issues groups actually exists, who is paying for them, is this industry just pedaling myths in an effort to stay in existence...it is frightening to think that these people are influencing government policy!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    silverharp wrote: »
    at the end of the day there is only so much talent be it men or women, there doesnt appear to be any shortage of women in pharmacy, medicine, optometrists law etc. either chasing $$ or more social cachet than working in a "factory"

    Exactly, all the top points courses, Law, Medicine, Dentistry, Pharmacy, Veterinary Science all majority women now. There is nobody holding them back in STEM, they just lack interest in some of the subjects. Bu they don't lack interest in the high status high pay subjects mentioned above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    Not for the first time, Feminists have been misrepresenting the statistics, in this case women in STEM, the following is an excellent article on it, Quillette is a fine source of articles I have to say.

    https://quillette.com/2019/03/02/lies-damned-lies-and-stem-statistics/

    The difficulty for Feminists, male and female alike, is that a lot of the dominant narratives, ie The debunked Wage Gap, the one sided Domestic Abuse debate amongst others, is that they do not stand up to critical analysis...

    What would be very interesting to know is how many Womens issues groups actually exists, who is paying for them, is this industry just pedaling myths in an effort to stay in existence...it is frightening to think that these people are influencing government policy!
    Rather than celebrate the overall “record high,” the (female) author of the WEF article chose to reprise some well-worn complaints about women in STEM. The emphatic female majorities were skated over:
    In some fields, as many as three-quarters of the PhDs awarded went to women, including public administration and services (75.6 percent), health sciences (70.3 percent) and education (68.8 percent). Women were also ahead of men in arts and humanities, as well as social and behavioral sciences.
    None of these figures were considered “problems” in terms of gender parity by the author of the WEF article. No concern was expressed about the underrepresentation of men in any broad field of science. So, surprise, surprise, STEM (as usual) is the problem:
    Possibly the area(s) that most needs gender balance is/are humanities and social sciences. Otherwise things can mainly be looked at from a female point of view, which is most obvious in say gender studies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    I saw that the 37 people executed in Saudi Arabia recently were all male.
    I decided to have a look to see a bit more about this issue.

    Here are some statistics. So the figures are not 100% male, but there is a huge difference.
    It doesn't prove discrimination per se, but suggests there might be an issue there.

    Amnesty's report on death penalties for 2017
    https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/ACT5079552018ENGLISH.PDF

    Bangladesh - 273 sentences during 2017 (269 men)
    Egypt - 35 executions during 2017 (34 men); 402 sentences (394 men)
    Iran - 507 executions during 2017 (501 men)
    Saudi Arabia - 146 executions during 2017 (144 men)
    USA - 2724 people on death row (2700 men); 41 sentenced during 2017 (38 men)
    Thailand - 192 sentenced in 2017 (173 men)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    This has been doing the rounds back and forth the past few days, our minister of social protection seems to think that men just need to get over themselves and take paternity leave ect.

    Screw your mortgage or rent because apparently women get along just fine on the basic rate. This could be due to the fact the father/partner supports the mother. They did an analysis in the examiner where it was shown that for both parents to take paternity and maternity leave it could cost 2 months rent. Imagine what it would be like when that's bumped up to 7 weeks.

    The sexist attitude here is the whole approve and dismissal of argument put forth that men just don't want to do it because they don't care about their children .


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