The publication journey

cdeb · 28-08-2018 10:04pm #1

Wonder if anyone has any experience of the publishing journey? (Rhetorical question on a forum like this, I'm sure!) I was on a few months back looking for a tip, so said I'd try again.

I've a non-fiction book doing the publisher rounds at the moment. I think most people here write fiction rather than non-fiction, but let's pretend for the moment that the submission routine is broadly similar.

I did go through one agent - got a helpful no; wasn't their area - but for non-fiction, it appears agents are less essential, so I just hit some publishers who've published similar stuff before. Got a couple of rejections to start with of course. Then submitted to a large publisher in London whose quoted response time was "only if we're interested". Didn't expect much, but they got back within a fortnight requesting a full manuscript. Obviously I sent it on, and got a reply then within half an hour basically saying "Thanks; will review and revert"

That was about two months ago, and no reply since. I sent a nudge e-mail there about ten days ago, and no reply to that either. They know I've submitted to other publishers and (outwardly) have no problems with that.

Now I know this part of things can take a fair bit of time, and patience is a virtue - hence the thread. What can I expect here? How much time is usual for reviewing a full manuscript? Should I expect a reply to a nudge e-mail? Should I even pick up the phone? Should I absolutely wait for a reply one way or the other before moving on and, ultimately, self-publishing?

So as I say, I'm sure there's plenty here who have had various experiences of this part - would be interesting to hear a few stories!

Realt Dearg Sec · 28-08-2018 10:12pm

cdeb wrote: »

Wonder if anyone has any experience of the publishing journey? (Rhetorical question on a forum like this, I'm sure!) I was on a few months back looking for a tip, so said I'd try again.

I've a non-fiction book doing the publisher rounds at the moment. I think most people here write fiction rather than non-fiction, but let's pretend for the moment that the submission routine is broadly similar.

I did go through one agent - got a helpful no; wasn't their area - but for non-fiction, it appears agents are less essential, so I just hit some publishers who've published similar stuff before. Got a couple of rejections to start with of course. Then submitted to a large publisher in London whose quoted response time was "only if we're interested". Didn't expect much, but they got back within a fortnight requesting a full manuscript. Obviously I sent it on, and got a reply then within half an hour basically saying "Thanks; will review and revert"

That was about two months ago, and no reply since. I sent a nudge e-mail there about ten days ago, and no reply to that either. They know I've submitted to other publishers and (outwardly) have no problems with that.

Now I know this part of things can take a fair bit of time, and patience is a virtue - hence the thread. What can I expect here? How much time is usual for reviewing a full manuscript? Should I expect a reply to a nudge e-mail? Should I even pick up the phone? Should I absolutely wait for a reply one way or the other before moving on and, ultimately, self-publishing?

So as I say, I'm sure there's plenty here who have had various experiences of this part - would be interesting to hear a few stories!

I have published an academic book so it might not be the same experience, but it really depends heavily on the publisher, the resources they have available and so on. But if it's a big publisher you would expect it to be relatively quick. It is possibly dependent on how quickly outside readers get back to them as well though. Two months with no reply (especially when they've already expressed an interest) is probably not out of the range of reasonable expectations, for most publishers, unless it really is a power house place. The failure to respond to your email is not encouraging though, I'll admit.

I would certainly wait longer than this though, especially if you have other publishers you can be sending it to and there is no problem with you doing that. Emails can get lost easily enough in the slush, editors get literally hundreds of them in a day. I would probably pick up the phone, see if you can talk to someone directly. Don't despair yet anyway, the long delay could be a really good thing. But like any publishing thing, get yourself ready for the worst. You know yourself.

Das Kitty · 29-08-2018 7:17am

Wait. 2 months is relatively short in this game.

Keep submitting elsewhere and I’d only nudge again if someone else makes you an offer.

It can take forever to hear back.

km85264 · 29-08-2018 9:18am

The way I see it there are two possibilities: the editor has forgotten (editors are human too) or he/she is still working on it. I remember listening to Patricia Deevy I think it was, editorial director at Penguin Ireland, at some event some years ago. When she has new talent, fiction or non-fiction, she has to bring it to London and present to the global editorial team, it's basically a competitive process. If you think of it from that perspective, six months would not be an unreasonable delay.
An occasional reminder email is certainly a good thing, and you may refresh the mind of an editor as they return from their hols. You could also use the opportunity to plug yourself or your book, mention some book-related event you've been to where you spoke to other people of similar interest and they were keen on your book subject, that kind of thing, show them you can get your face out there. Don't pester, maybe once every three to four weeks and, if you've not heard back after three emails then let it go.
A phone call can be great if you hit the right note and get to talk to the right person, but you may also come across as a nuisance. How good are you at cold calling?
Either way, don't wait, keep the submissions going out to other agents and publishers.

cdeb · 29-08-2018 10:45am

km85264 wrote: »

A phone call can be great if you hit the right note and get to talk to the right person, but you may also come across as a nuisance. How good are you at cold calling?

Cheers all. On the phone call - the e-mail I got was from the commissioning editor, so I have a name at least. I could either call and ask for the person, or call reception and ask to leave a nudge message for the person. So it wouldn't necessarily be a case of talking to the right person/hitting the right tone as it's a contact I've technically already made. The question of coming across a nuisance is the bigger concern of course.

I've read some interesting articles on what the review process entails from an editor's point of view, and while a two month plus wait is obviously frustrating (why can't you just drop everything and read my book now!), it's entirely understandable. But at this stage of course, there's no difference between being two months into an eventual three-month wait, and being two months along the line of never receiving a reply back.

Livvie · 29-08-2018 10:56am

I submitted to a publisher who responded by saying I should hear back within four months. I heard four months to the day that it was likely to be accepted, and a month later I was taken out for lunch at a Surrey country club and given a contract. I understand that four months is still considered to be quite quick.

cdeb · 05-09-2018 3:39pm

Got my reply today, nine weeks after submitting the full.

It was a very positive reply - effusive, almost. So much so that it could only end in a "but". And it did.

Still, was given a few new contacts to try, some of which I had but some of which are new, so I'll go off on a third and final round of submissions before going down the self-publication route.

Was fun while it lasted!

Realt Dearg Sec · 05-09-2018 4:11pm

cdeb wrote: »

Got my reply today, nine weeks after submitting the full.

It was a very positive reply - effusive, almost. So much so that it could only end in a "but". And it did.

Still, was given a few new contacts to try, some of which I had but some of which are new, so I'll go off on a third and final round of submissions before going down the self-publication route.

Was fun while it lasted!

That sounds very positive to me, I know it's a rejection, but it's not an out of hand rejection. You should feel very much vindicated IMO. Keep working at it!

cdeb · 05-09-2018 4:16pm

Cheers! Yeah, they said it was excellent - an "interesting story enjoyably told" - but that the decision just came down to could they shift enough to justify it, and they didn't think they could. I'm presuming that's not a boilerplate rejection of course! But it's a big company, and maybe a smaller house would be more able to make the numbers work. We'll have to see.

km85264 · 05-09-2018 8:05pm

We've all been there, rejections hurt. The only thing to do with a rejection is put it behind you and get on the horse again, get your work back out there and keep trying.
Kieran

HalloweenJack · 10-09-2018 11:01pm

Out of curiosity, how did you initially approach them? Was it an email detailing your project and gauging their interest?

I'm onto my third draft of my novel and I want to start approaching them when I'm done. It's fiction so might be slightly different but I'd be interested to hear your experience all the same.

All the best with the process.

cdeb · 11-09-2018 1:07pm

They had submission guidelines on their website, so I just emailed in. Every publisher's is slightly different, so I tailored my letter to each publisher. But generally, it started with a one para outline (I am writing to submit my <genre> manuscript <title> to <publishing house> for consideration. A test of <xxxxx> words is currently <insert status>, with a final draft expected in <very realistic timeline>

Then I gave a two para (250 word) back-cover blurb to try sell the book.

Then another two paragraphs on what I saw as the potential market - probably easier to do this for non-fiction than fiction I'd say.

Ended the cover letter with my contact details and "Many thanks for taking the time to consider my submission"; figured a bit of lick-arsing couldn't hurt. Came to 1.5 pages all told.

Most publishers wanted a chapter-by-chapter outline - maybe two sentences on each chapter to give a rough overview of the book. That was 2.5 pages.

They also wanted an author bio - I started with "This is my first book" to get the bad news out of the way, and then noted other writing experience to build up subject authority, and I linked to some of my shorter articles online to and show writing style. That was half a page.

Some houses want sample chapters; easily done. Chapters 1-2-3 for a novel seems to be a golden rule; non-fiction can break it though.

That was it. Not going to say it's perfect, but it got me through the first step at a big house in London, so something's right there.

I'd suggest starting by getting a list of potential publishers (or for fiction, probably agents; houses are far more open to agentless non-fiction submissions), finding your best chances, and not contacting them first. That way, you can learn from any early feedback and amend your letter if required. I'd also check response times - if someone says allow two months and another says allow four weeks, hit the former first. It might be a week or two before you get around to house B, but you're not losing time because house A will still reply later.

Be patient! I'm at this since March, and will be at it the rest of the year at least. Longer if I get an offer. Your first reply will almost certainly be a rejection - congrats! You're now a rejected author!

Best of luck with it!

Das Kitty · 12-09-2018 9:13am

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how did you initially approach them? Was it an email detailing your project and gauging their interest?

I'm onto my third draft of my novel and I want to start approaching them when I'm done. It's fiction so might be slightly different but I'd be interested to hear your experience all the same.

All the best with the process.

Have you considered trying to get an agent? A lot of publishers will only take fiction submissions from agents.

Either way you will need to follow the submission guidelines, normally posted on their website.

Generally they want a query letter, a sub thousand word synopsis of the entire plot, and the first 3 chapters.

The Tetrarch · 31-10-2018 5:47pm

cdeb wrote: »

Got my reply today, nine weeks after submitting the full.

It was a very positive reply - effusive, almost. So much so that it could only end in a "but". And it did.

Did they make any helpful comments that you could use in a re-write?

cdeb · 31-10-2018 6:41pm

No. For right or for wrong, I took it that they thought it was well written; just not commercial enough. (It's non-fiction, and to my mind it's easier to write a good non-fiction book once you spot the story - and that's the part which is bloody hard)

But one of the contacts they recommended has since replied to say they think the commercial scope isn't quite enough for them, but they'd be interested in at least providing self-publication support (cover design, proof-reading, editorial services, typesetting, printing, etc) and it would appear as a book by that publisher. The catch is I'd have to pay them of course, but I'd have to pay someone to self-publish.

I presume the fact that the book would appear outwardly as one of the publisher's own books means this is probably quite a decent fall-back plan (assuming I'm happy with price)?

km85264 · 31-10-2018 7:12pm

Having an established vendor on the cover is a benefit, but the key piece is getting the book into the shops. If they don't have services to help with that then you may as well compare them price for price with other self publishing agencies. Ask them for details of others who have gone that way that you can contact for advice. Remember, if you're paying, then you're the boss now so make sure you understand what your dollar buys you before handing it over.

The Tetrarch · 01-11-2018 11:56am

cdeb wrote: »

No. For right or for wrong, I took it that they thought it was well written; just not commercial enough. (It's non-fiction, and to my mind it's easier to write a good non-fiction book once you spot the story - and that's the part which is bloody hard)

But one of the contacts they recommended has since replied to say they think the commercial scope isn't quite enough for them, but they'd be interested in at least providing self-publication support (cover design, proof-reading, editorial services, typesetting, printing, etc) and it would appear as a book by that publisher. The catch is I'd have to pay them of course, but I'd have to pay someone to self-publish.

I presume the fact that the book would appear outwardly as one of the publisher's own books means this is probably quite a decent fall-back plan (assuming I'm happy with price)?

Thanks for the reply.
I have the information and analysis for a non-fiction book but it would have almost no mass appeal, perhaps 1,000 copies.
If I knew how much it cost to publish I might give it a go.

The subject is the analysis of thoroughbred horse pedigrees.
I have over a thousand books on horse pedigree, stud books, biographies.
Only three of those books (small books of 40 pages; 56 pages; 107 pages) deal with the subject adequately.
Most pedigree analysis books are descriptive "the horse comes from a good stallion producing line"; "that female family are well known for producing winners", and imo of little practical use.

My book will be heavy on data, tables, pedigrees highlighting important features.
It would be a "how to select" a good broodmare for breeding, or a horse for racing, or a stallion for your broodmare, based on their pedigrees.

cdeb · 01-11-2018 2:02pm

Cost would depend on wordcount and pictures in particular. Any info on those?

The Tetrarch · 01-11-2018 6:15pm

cdeb wrote: »

Cost would depend on wordcount and pictures in particular. Any info on those?

I have some rough words written but only an early outline, about 20,000 words.
My guess is a book would be 300/400 A4 pages, with 150/200 pedigree charts / data analysis.
At about 500 words a page and about 250 pages of text my guess is 125,000 to 150,000 words.
Areas of pedigree charts in the book must be highlighted in colour to show what works and what does not work.
The pedigree charts would be A4.

cdeb · 01-11-2018 8:16pm

That's quite specific. I'd say you'd struggle to find a traditional publishing house who'd do that. What I've been suggested is really for a regular book - I don't think I get a say on dimensions, but obviously it wouldn't be A4, and that would mean an entirely different print cost and typesetting cost. Then you've to add colour pages on top of that.

I'd have no idea what sort of cost you'd be looking at there to be honest. For 1,000 copies, I would have thought five figures anyway. But that's a pure guess, and I've no idea who you'd go to for that. The publishers of the books on your bookshelf would probably be the best place to start.

Indigo Ink · 01-11-2018 9:33pm

cdeb wrote: »

But one of the contacts they recommended has since replied to say they think the commercial scope isn't quite enough for them, but they'd be interested in at least providing self-publication support (cover design, proof-reading, editorial services, typesetting, printing, etc) and it would appear as a book by that publisher. The catch is I'd have to pay them of course, but I'd have to pay someone to self-publish.

cdeb, I agree with km85264. Unless having that particular publisher's name on the cover opens doors in terms of getting your book into retail shops, then there may be no benefit to taking them up on their offer unless they price very competitively and you're assured of the quality of the services they're offering.

Indigo Ink · 01-11-2018 9:48pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I have some rough words written but only an early outline, about 20,000 words.
My guess is a book would be 300/400 A4 pages, with 150/200 pedigree charts / data analysis.
At about 500 words a page and about 250 pages of text my guess is 125,000 to 150,000 words.
Areas of pedigree charts in the book must be highlighted in colour to show what works and what does not work.
The pedigree charts would be A4.

Given the niche market, is this book something you'd envisage selling at certain events or through specific stores? Or something that you'd sell online?

A print on demand service, for example Ingram Spark or Createspace (now KDP), would allow you to set the book up then print as many copies as you think you'd need or only print copies as demand arises.

You should be able to create the book to your specifications in terms of page/trim size, colour, etc, but you may want to employ a formatter to handle any tables/images as I understand it's a bit of a learning curve.

The Tetrarch · 02-11-2018 1:35pm

Indigo Ink wrote: »

Given the niche market, is this book something you'd envisage selling at certain events or through specific stores? Or something that you'd sell online?

A print on demand service, for example Ingram Spark or Createspace (now KDP), would allow you to set the book up then print as many copies as you think you'd need or only print copies as demand arises.

You should be able to create the book to your specifications in terms of page/trim size, colour, etc, but you may want to employ a formatter to handle any tables/images as I understand it's a bit of a learning curve.

Thanks for those links.
A few minutes answering questions gave me $29,000 for 500 books.

I sent you a PM to give you more idea of the content.

The publication journey

Comments