Discovery 3x11 - "Su'Kal" ~~ { Spoilers Within }

silverharp · 28-12-2020 12:38pm

youtube threw this up for me to see a few days ago, my god the contrast is something else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMKtKNZw4Bo

seamus · 28-12-2020 4:16pm

bilbot79 wrote: »

They are clearly setting Saru up to fail and be usurped by Burnham. This is no way to treat a Star Trek Captain and the writers should be shot

Micheal Burnham is a terrible character and I may be forced to stop watching when she overtakes Saru

Aw, man, don't be right.

Su'kal won't be able to leave the planet without dying, so Saru will stay behind to help him and teach him to be a Kelpian.

Meanwhile Osira will devastate Starfleet, destroy HQ and a number of ships before the Disco crew outwit her and destroy her with the help of the Vulcan fleet.

The Admiral dead, Saru staying behind and Starfleet in disarray, Burnham will take over as Captain and de facto leader of Starfleet with Tilly as XO, and they will retreat to regroup and rebuild the Federation using Vulcan as their base.

Please don't be right...

PhiloCypher · 28-12-2020 4:40pm

Rawr wrote: »

It's a bit of a mix, but the episode had some pretty good Trek elements, and for what was essentially a holodeck episode, they did a very good job. I wonder what set they borrowed this dream-sequence from? I say this because they hadn't bothered showing the interior of the Kelpian ship and I was curious to see the interior of a Starfleet / Federation vessel of the time...but we got nothing. I wonder if they got creative with the resources they had and made this nightmare holo-program out of stuff available at the studio, since I still feel that they overloaded the budget. Might also explain why we actually get Saru's actor without his makeup.

Seeing him without makeup also makes me fear that this is indeed Saru's end. The actor might have wanted at least one episode with his actual face, and they have already set up the precedent of crew members leaving when they encounter their own race. They toned down Michael in this one too, which helped at lot...but if she becomes Captain...I'm done. She's not Starfleet material, she's not captain material and if the producers think that passionate "loud-whispering" speeches at people is the same as captaining a starship, then I'll be unable to watch. Saru was an anchor that kept me watching, cast him off and you lose me as well.

FO Tilly is *alright* but I was disappointed with her banter with Oisyraa. Instead of owning the Conn and shooting Oisyraa down, she started back-talking her taunts and trying to throw them back at her. Didn't really feel like a good moment of Captaincy. Should have also withdrawn Discovery as soon as they knew a Chain vessel was approaching. Very stupid move which I don't understand beyond Tilly being crap at the job.

The ending cliffhanger does make me want to watch how this plays out. The "Ship under seige" plot is something we sometimes get in Trek and it's often good. I wonder how Discovery will do it....and can they manage it without Michael using her God-Mode cheat?

Aside from the over emphasis on Burnham at the expense of every other character, My biggest beef with this season is that they've done nothing to establish the status quo for the Alpha/Beta Quadrant other then establish 3 of the 4 founding members of the federation are no longer members. All we needed was a 2 minute place setting scene where the Admiral brings them and us up to speed on the state of play of the main players in the Quadrant. Instead he sends them out blind to blunder into first contacts(for them) with no idea of the galactic context.

Now in theory I can understand that after such a big reset as sending them so far into the future ,they might be tempted to shroud the new status quo in mystery. Give the show a New Frontier feel not seen since TOS, where we didn't know whats around the corner, and in the hands of better writers it could work. But in practice its incredibly frustrating, as through necessity to keep us in the dark ,they must keep the characters in the dark to let them discover as they go.

Banana Republic 1 · 28-12-2020 6:39pm

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Aside from the over emphasis on Burnham at the expense of every other character, My biggest beef with this season is that they've done nothing to establish the status quo for the Alpha/Beta Quadrant other then establish 3 of the 4 founding members of the federation are no longer members. All we needed was a 2 minute place setting scene where the Admiral brings them and us up to speed on the state of play of the main players in the Quadrant. Instead he sends them out blind to blunder into first contacts(for them) with no idea of the galactic context.

Now in theory I can understand that after such a big reset as sending them so far into the future ,they might be tempted to shroud the new status quo in mystery. Give the show a New Frontier feel not seen since TOS, where we didn't know whats around the corner, and in the hands of better writers it could work. But in practice its incredibly frustrating, as through necessity to keep us in the dark ,they must keep the characters in the dark to let them discover as they go.

You’re giving the writers credit for deliberately steering the plot. The reality is however their just inept.

28-12-2020 6:59pm

It should be fun when they go back to Ni'Var to tell them the reason The Burn happened, and the entire galaxy was brought to its knees, was because a Kelpien baby got sad and scared.

bilbot79 · 28-12-2020 10:27pm

seamus wrote: »

Aw, man, don't be right.

Su'kal won't be able to leave the planet without dying, so Saru will stay behind to help him and teach him to be a Kelpian.

Meanwhile Osira will devastate Starfleet, destroy HQ and a number of ships before the Disco crew outwit her and destroy her with the help of the Vulcan fleet.

The Admiral dead, Saru staying behind and Starfleet in disarray, Burnham will take over as Captain and de facto leader of Starfleet with Tilly as XO, and they will retreat to regroup and rebuild the Federation using Vulcan as their base.

Please don't be right...

Your timeline is very plausible but would still involve assassinating Saru's character to make the audience happy to leave him behind. Muck.

Can you imagine how much whispering there will be in your version? Please don't be right!

bilbot79 · 28-12-2020 10:30pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It should be fun when they go back to Ni'Var to tell them the reason The Burn happened, and the entire galaxy was brought to its knees, was because a Kelpien baby got sad and scared.

Yes it seems crazy so I scoured the internet to see where they got the inspiration for Su'Kal

jackboy · 28-12-2020 10:42pm

silverharp wrote: »

youtube threw this up for me to see a few days ago, my god the contrast is something else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMKtKNZw4Bo

Characters with a bit of steel and resilience, just how you would imagine those trusted and suited to long term space flight. Compared to the emotional wrecks running Discovery.

Smacruairi · 29-12-2020 12:27am

I hated pretty much everything about that episode.

1. The destruction of Saru - has always shown steely determination, now becomes a quivering nostalgic wreck at a hologram.

2. Culber volunteering to also stay on the planet, as a medical officer surely there would have been more back and forth.

3. Michael said she was unhappy with Saru as captain. Then magically finds a way to find him unsuitable for the role while on the planet. What did Tilly say about protection?

4. Orion girl is a C list villain, only actually succeeding because you don't have an adult in charge. Would sisko, Picard etc get into an insult match in that manner? Jane way would have made her feel tiny.

5. The gray character is clearly nonsense. The writers wanted a trans character. I actually thought the trill idea was genius for the "they" idea. But now they're stuck trying to figure out how to deal with them, and it actually isolates the character more. They're actually othering the character more.

6. Book and Michael giving the nod of approval after every order - why does anyone need your approval?

7. Michael needs to piss off, stat. Everyone knows why.

Also why spend a fortune on that gorgeous cg effect of those floating platforms.. When the script is shot. That was a real microcosm there - style over substance.

bilbot79 · 29-12-2020 1:21am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I hated pretty much everything about that episode.

1. The destruction of Saru - has always shown steely determination, now becomes a quivering nostalgic wreck at a hologram.

2. Culber volunteering to also stay on the planet, as a medical officer surely there would have been more back and forth.

3. Michael said she was unhappy with Saru as captain. Then magically finds a way to find him unsuitable for the role while on the planet. What did Tilly say about protection?

4. Orion girl is a C list villain, only actually succeeding because you don't have an adult in charge. Would sisko, Picard etc get into an insult match in that manner? Jane way would have made her feel tiny.

5. The gray character is clearly nonsense. The writers wanted a trans character. I actually thought the trill idea was genius for the "they" idea. But now they're stuck trying to figure out how to deal with them, and it actually isolates the character more. They're actually othering the character more.

6. Book and Michael giving the nod of approval after every order - why does anyone need your approval?

7. Michael needs to piss off, stat. Everyone knows why.

Also why spend a fortune on that gorgeous cg effect of those floating platforms.. When the script is shot. That was a real microcosm there - style over substance.

Agree with all of the above. To add to point 6 I always get taken out of the zone by SMGs bad acting whenever herself and Book interact. She immediately stops whispering and starts talking, dare I say it....black. Which would be fine if it weren't completely out of character.

I find that a lot with her. You'll see her acting as 3 to 4 different people per episode and not as one person with 3-4 different interactions

Banana Republic 1 · 29-12-2020 9:42am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I hated pretty much everything about that episode.

1. The destruction of Saru - has always shown steely determination, now becomes a quivering nostalgic wreck at a hologram.

2. Culber volunteering to also stay on the planet, as a medical officer surely there would have been more back and forth.

3. Michael said she was unhappy with Saru as captain. Then magically finds a way to find him unsuitable for the role while on the planet. What did Tilly say about protection?

4. Orion girl is a C list villain, only actually succeeding because you don't have an adult in charge. Would sisko, Picard etc get into an insult match in that manner? Jane way would have made her feel tiny.

5. The gray character is clearly nonsense. The writers wanted a trans character. I actually thought the trill idea was genius for the "they" idea. But now they're stuck trying to figure out how to deal with them, and it actually isolates the character more. They're actually othering the character more.

6. Book and Michael giving the nod of approval after every order - why does anyone need your approval?

7. Michael needs to piss off, stat. Everyone knows why.

Also why spend a fortune on that gorgeous cg effect of those floating platforms.. When the script is shot. That was a real microcosm there - style over substance.

He could of just started blinking at the holograms.

Rawr · 29-12-2020 10:14am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I hated pretty much everything about that episode.

5. The gray character is clearly nonsense. The writers wanted a trans character. I actually thought the trill idea was genius for the "they" idea. But now they're stuck trying to figure out how to deal with them, and it actually isolates the character more. They're actually othering the character more.

I've actually found myself fast-forwarding through these sections almost automatically now. It's usually up to 2-3 minutes of Greg and Adria just doating over each other with nothing actually happening in terms of character development or plot progression. It's just dead space in the middle of the episode that I kind of *know* I can skip over without penalty in the story.

I'm going to get stung one of these days when they throw a major plot-point into those scenes, but they are so boring I don't mind taking the risk.

flazio · 29-12-2020 11:17am

Smacruairi wrote: »

4. Orion girl is a C list villain, only actually succeeding because you don't have an adult in charge. Would sisko, Picard etc get into an insult match in that manner? Jane way would have made her feel tiny.

The ironic thing about that is, the actor playing Osyraa, Janet Kidder. is actually 48, but is playing this role more like a spoilt brat teenager.

bilbot79 · 29-12-2020 11:20am

flazio wrote: »

The ironic thing about that is, the actor playing Osyraa, Janet Kidder. is actually 48, but is playing this role more like a spoilt brat teenager.

I thought she looked familiar. Shes Lois Lane's niece..

29-12-2020 1:57pm

bilbot79 wrote: »

I thought she looked familiar. Shes Lois Lane's niece..

Bruce Banner is her dad.

flazio · 29-12-2020 2:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Bruce Banner is her dad.

I think this was a pathetic attempt at tongue in cheek. Her dad's name is John Kidder and has not had any acting roles as Bruce David Banner.

29-12-2020 2:55pm

flazio wrote: »

I think this was a pathetic attempt at tongue in cheek.

Er, sorry?

flazio · 29-12-2020 4:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Er, sorry?

Fair enough, I'll give you a chance to defend yourself. Please provide a source that says John Kidder, the father of Osyraa actor Janet Kidder and the brother of the late Margot Kidder played Bruce Banner in any media as you have claimed.

29-12-2020 4:35pm

flazio wrote: »

Fair enough, I'll give you a chance to defend yourself. Please provide a source that says John Kidder, the father of Osyraa actor Janet Kidder and the brother of the late Margot Kidder played Bruce Banner in any media as you have claimed.

Happy Christmas, flazio. And I checked, to be sure. It's still technically Christmas.

RebelButtMunch · 29-12-2020 4:35pm

flazio wrote: »

Fair enough, I'll give you a chance to defend yourself. Please provide a source that says John Kidder, the father of Osyraa actor Janet Kidder and the brother of the late Margot Kidder played Bruce Banner in any media as you have claimed.

Hulk

~Rebel~ · 29-12-2020 4:38pm

flazio wrote: »

Fair enough, I'll give you a chance to defend yourself. Please provide a source that says John Kidder, the father of Osyraa actor Janet Kidder and the brother of the late Margot Kidder played Bruce Banner in any media as you have claimed.

The fuck?

Lois Lane (Margot Kidder) is her aunt - good little piece of trivia.
Bruce Banner’s her dad, Peter Parker’s her nephew, Diana Prince is her second cousin once removed. Jokes.

Your comments are nuts, and needlessly rude.

29-12-2020 4:41pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The fuck? It was clearly a joke.

Lois Lane (Margot Kidder) is her aunt - good little piece of trivia.
Bruce Banner’s her dad, Peter Parker’s her nephew, Diana Prince is her second cousin once removed.

Your comments above are both ridiculous, and needlessly rude.

You know the saying... when you have to explain a joke

AllForIt · 29-12-2020 10:32pm

jackboy wrote: »

Characters with a bit of steel and resilience, just how you would imagine those trusted and suited to long term space flight. Compared to the emotional wrecks running Discovery.

I think the 'emotional wreck' thing in disco is where the show has completely lost me. As I said before the idea that you'd have ppl who are emotionally weak signing up for active duty is just so absurd. And they did it as part of it's 'diversity' policy, so that weak people would feel 'represented'. How cringe is that.

jackboy · 29-12-2020 10:47pm

AllForIt wrote: »

I think the 'emotional wreck' thing in disco is where the show has completely lost me. As I said before the idea that you'd have ppl who are emotionally weak signing up for active duty is just so absurd. And they did it as part of it's 'diversity' policy, so that weak people would feel 'represented'. How cringe is that.

Even worse than that. They are representing the ‘diverse’ people as weak and unable to manage their emotions. I’m not sure how the diverse groups included in the show are not terribly insulted by the stereotypical representation.

29-12-2020 10:49pm

AllForIt wrote: »

I think the 'emotional wreck' thing in disco is where the show has completely lost me. As I said before the idea that you'd have ppl who are emotionally weak signing up for active duty is just so absurd. And they did it as part of it's 'diversity' policy, so that weak people would feel 'represented'. How cringe is that.

'Yes Neil, that was quite a good speech as you stepped off, but I think we were missing a smidge of emotion. As you blast off from the moon can you give us a few hefty sobs?'

AllForIt · 29-12-2020 11:42pm

jackboy wrote: »

Even worse than that. They are representing the ‘diverse’ people as weak and unable to manage their emotions. I’m not sure how the diverse groups included in the show are not terribly insulted by the stereotypical representation.

Personally I am insulted.

edit: okay full disclosure, Colbert's gay accent embarrasses me. I don't talk with that kind of hissy accent that your more likely to come across from someone who lives socially on the downtown Manhattan's gay circuit. In any case regional accents of any variety aren't appropriate for a show like ST. Could you imagine if you had a proper farmer bogger accent on ST for the sake of diversity. It would just be laughable.

AllForIt · 29-12-2020 11:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

'Yes Neil, that was quite a good speech as you stepped off, but I think we were missing a smidge of emotion. As you blast off from the moon can you give us a few hefty sobs?'

lol

One small weep for mankind

silverharp · 30-12-2020 12:09am

In Space everyone can hear you cry

TheIrishGrover · 30-12-2020 10:48am

Blah blah blah blah. Diversity is bad. Blah blah blah blah.

I thought the episode was actually OK. Without being great. Very derivative of many Trek episodes over the last few series.

It was good to see Doug Jones without his makeup and I actually liked Tilly's scenes. Effects were good. However the degrading Holodeck-type thing has been done to death in Sci-Fi in general.

I did like Burnham pretending to be a hologram. If only so her character could pretend to NOT be so miserable and earnest.

The kid and their boyfriend storyline better start paying off soon though. I like the kid as a character and thought they were a good addition but they need to something more with them other than have them pine over their boyfriend.

That Orion baddie is just....... just the worst. Someone called her C-list baddie? That's generous. Really REALLY one-note and uninteresting. God she is so bad and boring.

I don't think they destroyed Saru. You know he's going to have to do the right thing and kill the Kelpian eventually in order to stop another burn...... So, there ya go, Discovery fixed Warp Drive and restored The Federation in a 2-parter (Not even a cliff-hanger like I thought).

When they kill the Kelpian they will have all the dilithium they need and they will find a way to contact Star Fleet. There will be a bit of a battle interspersed with schennanigans onboard Discovery where Book and/or Tilly will die. They will figure out some way of freeing the ship.

Again, I really liked Season 1 & 2. My problem, as always, is their laser-focus on Burnham to the detriment of other, more interesting or engaging characters. There isn't a single character I actually dislike in the show. But after 3 seasons, apart from Stamets and the Doc, we have seen VERY little focus on them. Even Tilly. For all her career advancement, she still hero-worships Burnham and everything she has done/accomplished is because of her. Even her promotion: "I'm promoting you because you are not Burnham".
I said I like all the characters. I even like Burnham. It's just the amount of time she gets.

Edit:

AllForIt wrote: »

......... In any case regional accents of any variety aren't appropriate for a show like ST. Could you imagine if you had a proper farmer bogger accent on ST for the sake of diversity. It would just be laughable.

I actually love they way they handle accents on The Expanse. The Belter accents especially. They (Trek in general) could have done that more. Saru does have a slight intonation but that may be Jones himself as Saru does sound similar to Abe Sapien in Hellboy 2 (Not just the voice of course but his...... what.... vocal mannerisms?)

Johnny Storm · 30-12-2020 10:56am

@TheIrishGrover ^
Well done for maintaining a positive attitude!
Hopefully the show will improve in future

Discovery 3x11 - "Su'Kal" ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

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Discovery 3x11 - "Su'Kal" ~~ { Spoilers Within }