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RootsIreland / IFHF

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭genie


    I was using the website specifically for pre 1864 records and I was lucky enough to get some of my families back to the mid to late 18C. :)

    I can only hope now that irishgenealogy.ie continues to add records, as not only is it free, in many cases you can view and download a scan of the original church record, something you never received from RootsIreland for your €5. :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    In the latest issue of Irish Roots, there are 2 discussions of the IFHF changes, both negative but polite. I'd say the IFHF have seen a massive decrease in usage and it will be forced to back down.

    I've never made much use of them at all. The one record I found of use has, I believe, a significant typo, and neither the RCBL, the actual church, nor the IFHF is able to tell me where the original record is, so I can't view it myself. I really object to pay per view but would be very happy to pay for short term subscription - even ancestry does a (could be cheaper) reasonable monthly rate now for unlimited access.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ACProctor


    While the IFHF's T&C are badly phrased, and do seem threatening, they're not unusual in the industry. As someone else pointed out already, they're merely trying to prevent a few people doing lookups for a larger number of non-paying folk.

    As regards data sharing, there is no copyright on your own transcriptions of public records. Obviously, images may be copyrighted, and even the indexed database system created by a content provider. Your own GEDCOM files, etc., are completely independent of that.

    Data sharing within an extended family is a fundmantal tenet of genealogy!

    Anway, the IFHF's charges are far too high for me, or anyone in my family history workshop :-(

    Tony


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Geniecon


    What really annoys me about rootsireland is that they state that results are finding aids only. This is a bit much if you're paying big money to take a chance on getting ALL the required information. Civil record transcriptions vary between one county and the next i.e. some civil records from rootsireland do not show all the details that you would get on a photocopy cert in the GRO research room (for €4) . In fairness, some do have complete info, but it's not always worth taking the chance.

    Older church records can be scant at the best of times, but it's always worth checking the microfilms in the NLI, once you know the relevant parish/date etc.

    Also, I paid a fair bit over a year ago to get Meath baptism records, only to find that some info was not transcribed, I was looking for sponsors and places of birth, but this info was not included, even though I knew this info was available in earlier records for the relevant parish. I contacted them about it and received a reply from the Meath Heritage centre, who were to check into it and get back to me. No info yet and I'm not holding my breath.....

    Re the "not-for-profit" thing, I would question the validity of this statement, as I have met individuals working for this organisation who are clearly making a living from this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    another mention of the IFHF on JG's blog from yesterday -

    Why can’t we all just get along?

    just spotted this on Claire's blog :

    RootsIreland offers 'free' searches for July


    S.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Those blog pieces detail basic common sense which appears to be lacking at Rootsireland.

    From their latest antics it can be inferred that their lack of business accumen matches the lack of clarity on their website and these are beginning to have an effect. Clearly usage has died away, their cash-flow is drying up and they need a carrot to prompt people to buy credits.

    Sorry guys, I know the carrot is held on the end of a long stick, I’m not an ass, and neither are most of the people who could use your service when you get your act together.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    They're probably trying to build it up so's they can flog it off to the other larger "mercenary", Ancestry, and walk away with a big wad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    They're probably trying to build it up so's they can flog it off to the other larger "mercenary", Ancestry, and walk away with a big wad.

    When is it going to stop raining? I need to get OUT!

    To be fair to them I’m not sure that is the case. If it is, (and I doubt it) they have even less of a clue than I gave them credit for. To me it seems like a fair example of what I call the ‘big disconnect’ between the reality of business and timeservers who have no conception of what the real world is like. Sadly it is our taxes that pay for this tat and pay the salaries of many of the idiots involved.

    I am a total amateur when it comes to genealogy, but I am not easily fooled when it comes to management and a business plan. Let’s look at the commerciality / user-friendliness of their website. I’ll ignore the fact that they have an identity problem rootsireland or Irish Family History Foundation. Ignore the choice (a ‘confusion’?) of 14 tabs on their home page. I will ignore the similar shades of red & orange on the ‘what’s available’ map (why not a contrast?) Let’s just look at the ‘About Us’ tab. This is the page customers first go to before doing business online – everyone wants to know who/what is on the other end of the Internet connection. You expect concise, succinct information. The Rootsireland ‘About Us’ page runs to about 2,100 words or, in paper terms, about five A4 pages..........now, what potential customer/buyer of any product is going to wade through five A4 pages of hard-to-follow stolid prose? (Frankly, who gives a rats about some schoolteacher in Co. Clare in 1979?) Do they realise how arrogant it is to expect a potential buyer to read that stuff?

    The development of their business is curious - text in bold print is from their site :
    1984 groups.... came together to form the Irish Family History Society, out of which
    The Irish Family History Co-operative emerged.
    Now a Co-op is a legal entity and is regulated by the Registrar of Friendly Societies; it does not ‘emerge’, it is created by someone for a purpose and has members
    ....which later, in consultation with the Companies Office, changed its name to the Irish Family History Foundation (IFHF).
    Nonsense. The Companies Office does not ‘consult’ – it does what it is there to do – to record information. You tell it what you want and if it is legal and in their remit they do it. Read http://www.cro.ie/ena/about-cro-functions.aspx

    Next we have waffle about Diaspora, cross-border and Taoiseach’s Task force dating to the 1980’s – (Em, that is about 30 years ago, does it add anything?)

    Then we jump to theThe Irish Genealogy Project (IGP) which got into bed with the Irish Family History Foundation, which with commercial genealogists formed Irish Genealogy Limited (IGL) IGL was registered as a company in 1993 and ceased to function in 2009.
    Companies have shareholders and directors; they should make a profit and pay a dividend What happened? If you do not want people to know, why bother mentioning it?

    We then leap to
    The Irish Family History Foundation is a company limited by guarantee with no share capital and no distribution of profits. As such it is a voluntary organization made up of local genealogy centres, the majority of which are legally established on the same basis.
    So this means it has directors and officers. Not one name is mentioned, nor how they are appointed, or on what basis. Hardly clarity.

    The majority of IFHF centres sponsored community training and employment schemes operated by FÁS in the Republic of Ireland. Some centres continue to do this work.
    No detail given on this, but anyone ‘in the know’ understands that ‘FÁS’ obtains millions of taxpayers’ funds to operate. On what basis can IFHF justify charging fees for a service that has already been funded by the taxpayer?

    Investment by the IFI allowed the IGP to launch the data capture, or production phase of the project, with a common computer system, complete with custom designed software.
    All very commendable but who/what are the ‘IFI’ – no other mention of them on the site... on what basis was the investment made? There is no mention of any consideration, or payback/reward.

    IFHF then go on to waffle about archives, records, ‘Diaspora’ and describe themselves as ‘guardians’. If there is one word from Mary Robinson’s term in office I despise more than ‘absolutely’ it is Dias bloody pora.

    The web design company responsible for the site is primarily one for the golf industry. That figures. If an intern built the IFHFsite for me as a summer project they would be sent packing. The big disconnect; a project managed by idiots in Kildare St and its environs who never had to face commercial reality and would not recognize it if it hit them in the face..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    I've been reading that 'about us'. It reminds me of someone I knew many years ago, all bluster and no brains! There I said it, I'm not proud of myself for saying it but yes, there is a lot of drivel and waffle on that site.


  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭RGM


    I understand the frustration, but I don't know how much I can complain given the information I've found there and nowhere else.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    When is it going to stop raining? I need to get OUT!

    To be fair to them I’m not sure that is the case. If it is, (and I doubt it) they have even less of a clue than I gave them credit for. To me it seems like a fair example of what I call the ‘big disconnect’ between the reality of business and timeservers who have no conception of what the real world is like. Sadly it is our taxes that pay for this tat and pay the salaries of many of the idiots involved.

    I am a total amateur when it comes to genealogy, but I am not easily fooled when it comes to management and a business plan. Let’s look at the commerciality / user-friendliness of their website. ......

    Pedro, that is a quality rant! I salute you. :)

    And everything you say is true. I tweeted at them that their new July offer was just too confusing to consider. Unsurprisingly, no response was forthcoming.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ACProctor


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    They're probably trying to build it up so's they can flog it off to the other larger "mercenary", Ancestry, and walk away with a big wad.

    Ancestry are already up for sale themselves at the moment. A more likely buyer might be brightsolid, who operate findmypast.ie (and similar domains). However, IFHF are technically "non-profit" (although you'd have to question that given their charging structure) so I'm not sure how a commerical buy-out would work.

    I would be cautious of IFHF if I was looking for a good buy. The fact that they never kept images of what was being transcribed, and the level of detail in their transcriptions is "variable", suggests that someone didn't really understand genealogy very well.

    Tony


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Pedro, that is a quality rant! I salute you. :)

    And everything you say is true. I tweeted at them that their new July offer was just too confusing to consider. Unsurprisingly, no response was forthcoming.

    Thanks Pinky. Possibly 150% of ‘normal’ rainfall in June coupled with the full moon on Tuesday night made me more prone to a rant.:o

    I have no special agenda against IFHF; it’s just that they are so inept. I get frustrated at bad customer service when it is due to ignorance and worse, downright stupidity. I get even madder when the provider is obtaining State funding / subsidies or has a monopoly and their stupidity prevents me from using a service that would be useful to me. Back in the 1990’s I built an Internet business and know that Internet marketing 101 shows that online customers want three things: (i) Trust (ii) Simplicity (iii) No Surprises. IFHF has completely failed to provide all three!

    It gets worse. Several studies over the years have repeatedly found that a dissatisfied customer tells between nine and fifteen people and of those about 13% tell more than 20. So, in the last three months, more than 20,000 people now know that IFHF has awful customer service. (2,300 hits on this thread, say 1500 to allow for multiple hits by the same users, 1,500 x 15 = 22,500.) That is a sizeable number in a niche market. And the feedback or comment from IFHF management? Precisely zero.
    Last year the Global Development Learning Network (an org. under the World Bank umbrella) said that 86% of consumers stop doing business with an organisation because of a bad customer experience, up from 59% four years ago. A study prepared by Harvard Business School a couple of years ago has shown that 80% of ‘defectors’ (i.e. people who stop using a service) said that they were ‘satisfied’ in their last customer survey. Loads of info here http://customerservicemanager.com/customer-service-facts.htm

    IFHF must be aware of the negativity on this thread i.e. what is happening in their market; if they are not aware they are guilty of gross mismanagement. If they are aware, their current silence / lack of engagement speak volumes on their ‘customer care’ focus and willingness to engage with their customers/potential customers.

    The IFI in my post above appears to be the International Fund for Ireland; they must now have to seriously question what is happening to the funding they gave IFHF, given the absence of such a basic item as scanned records and an absence of management direction / leadership in IFHF.

    Just wait for the IFHF ‘app’.................:D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    We the customers are in the unfortunate position of not having much alternative - unless you are lucky enough to be searching a parish included on IrishGenealogy then it's usually a case of either searching on IFHF or visiting the appropriate Library - that of course is if you know the parish or at at least the general area, and you were able to get to the source.

    If there was an alternative for the more difficult searches (i.e, have names, but not the exact parish...) they would lose customers in droves, but as it stands we have no choice, so they dont have to live in the real commercial world. Common sense, and JG, would suggest that IFHF and IrishGenealogy combine forces, but I dont see that happening any time soon - hope I'm wrong.. The scanning of the RC films looked like an apparent way out of this, but somehow they were able to prevent this - dont get why they have this power ?

    For the moment I have to say I tolerate the system but extract every last details I can out of the free search, even with the restrictions - i.e. the one with just number of results. This is tedious but can yield results if you have some names and a county at least.


    Shane


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Point taken, Shane, but you are an ‘expert’ as clearly indicated by your regular posts both here and elsewhere; you know how to navigate around the better areas of that awful site and ‘pick & choose’ from it and others. The purpose of the IFI funding and State support for IFHF was to generate tourist revenue; now imagine Joe Schmo in NJ or MA, looking for info with a view to coming to Ireland to see the auld sod and the ‘Gathering’ ........he would run a mile after encountering the IFHF roots site.

    Yes, IFHF are almost the only show in town, but once Aer Lingus was in a similar position. Look at what happened when Ryanair took to the skies. AL floatation price of €2.20, now priced artificially high at about €1, (mainly because of Ryanair bid interest) having been down to 0.63 this year and even lower a couple of years ago (their true value IMO). Why? Bad management, good staff without power and bad staff with attitude. Detect any similarities with IFHF?


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    shanew wrote: »
    If there was an alternative for the more difficult searches (i.e, have names, but not the exact parish...) they would lose customers in droves, but as it stands we have no choice, so they dont have to live in the real commercial world. Common sense, and JG, would suggest that IFHF and IrishGenealogy combine forces, but I dont see that happening any time soon - hope I'm wrong.. The scanning of the RC films looked like an apparent way out of this, but somehow they were able to prevent this - dont get why they have this power ?

    From the point of view of the IFHF I think this is the central issue. From what I have read on John Grenham's blog over the years and picket up from the professional genealogy community there seems to be two competing ideologies when it comes to records:

    Get everything online for free (e.g. 1901/1911 census) vs. charge people for access using a poor imitation of the ScotlandsPeople model.

    IFHF seem to think that it would be detrimental to their revenues if the NAI were able to scan the parish registers and get them online. I work as a pro genealogist and would LOVE to see ALL Irish records online for free. I (and therefore the IFHF) would still be able to get an income as it takes a long time to understand how and why various record sets were created and how many there are out there. Plenty of people are not willing to or don't have the time to invest in that kind of knowledge accumulation so will pay for it. If each county heritage centre got it's act together and actively targeted those with Kerry, Galway, Donegal etc.. roots in the US and elsewhere they would have a very good income stream.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45 tenterfields


    shanew wrote: »
    We the customers are in the unfortunate position of not having much alternative - unless you are lucky enough to be searching a parish included on IrishGenealogy then it's usually a case of either searching on IFHF or visiting the appropriate Library - that of course is if you know the parish or at at least the general area, and you were able to get to the source.

    If there was an alternative for the more difficult searches (i.e, have names, but not the exact parish...) they would lose customers in droves, but as it stands we have no choice, so they dont have to live in the real commercial world. Common sense, and JG, would suggest that IFHF and IrishGenealogy combine forces, but I dont see that happening any time soon - hope I'm wrong.. The scanning of the RC films looked like an apparent way out of this, but somehow they were able to prevent this - dont get why they have this power ?

    For the moment I have to say I tolerate the system but extract every last details I can out of the free search, even with the restrictions - i.e. the one with just number of results. This is tedious but can yield results if you have some names and a county at least.


    Shane
    Hi Shane

    Any chance of a quick tutorial on wringing info from the free search for us neophytes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭RGM


    I will say their database search has a couple serious flaws:

    - You have to manually search for different name variations. A search for "Ryan" won't return results for "Royan," for example. When you're dealing with transcriptions that are all over the place, this is important. They should at least make it clear for people. I mean, I have Ring ancestors and I've found records under Ryng, Reing, Reiny and Reen. Your average Joe won't find that stuff.

    - Can't search by locations within counties. So irritating.

    If I was running that site from a business point of view, I'd make searches free and make it easy as hell to find what you're looking for, then put a price on the records. Otherwise, people will click around for two minutes, get frustrated and leave.


    Also, I've come across duplicate records. That's ridiculous when you're paying for each one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    easier to use an example or two if you have some... like manual searches you need a certain level of clues, otherwise there's no way to confirm if you have a possible match. As well as the name, dob and county, you ideally need one or more of these :
    parish or town

    parents names..ideally both but one can be enough sometimes

    siblings names and dates

    The names make a big difference - common names you need more details, rare names you can sometimes get away with just a name, year and county. Some name variations and Latin versions are allowed for in the searches but you can also just enter the first few letters - e.g. Ja for James/Jacobus etc.

    Baptism searches are much easier for RC families since they include mother's maiden name, CofI baptism generally dont. However the search facility on RootsIreland doesn't always work correctly for maiden name searches - think that might relate to certain counties or parishes...

    For the actual baptism searches go to the relevant county section, and enter the basic details - and see how many matches there are. Fine tune the search by entering the first names of the father and/or mother if you have them and again check the number of matches. If you get a small number of results, then you can try each of the parishes in turn and note the number of matches in each. Once you have narrowed down a parish you can then search within that for siblings by leaving the parents names and trying first letter of all names in turn - starting with the more common ones P, M, C, K, W, J etc (they dont allow a general search by parish without a name).

    Basically the aim of this is to get to a search that gives you a small number of results, and ideally the message '1 match for the search criteria...' Once you have done this you can follow up by purchasing the record transcript(s), or better still viewing the film in the NLI. Obviously if you get a 'No records were returned', or a very a large number you are in trouble...and probably have to go back to your clues and see if you can add to these.

    If you dont know the county then the process is more complex, but if you believe the person came from one of the areas covered by RootsIreland then you can try the "full" search with parents names and see if there are results - if so then de-select the various counties in turn until you narrow down where they are - then select the relevant county centre(s), and start the parish search.



    S.

    Re: Duplicates - some of these relate to baptism and civil births for the same person.

    Re : Searching within county - you can search by parish, but an initial is required


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    shanew wrote: »
    ...
    Re: Duplicates - some of these relate to baptism and civil births for the same person...
    Where a Catholic parish has more than one church, the records in the "chapel of ease" should be regarded as a supplementary record, as they were supposed to be copied into the main parish register. It looks to me as if some of the chapel of ease records were also entered in the database.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    In addition I think some records were double transcribed by mistake.. sometimes with slight variation




    S.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    shanew wrote: »
    In addition I think some records were double transcribed by mistake.. sometimes with slight variation.
    Indeed. I formed mental images of FÁS workers who had only a limited understanding of the process saying "Oh, shit. I did that one wrong. Better do it again."

    I did find one instance of three copies of the same record. It was in irishgenealogy, so it did not lead to any costs for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭RGM


    In my current purchases, I have identical records of three church baptisms, a church marriage, two civil marriages and a civil birth record. I also have two slightly different transcriptions of the same civil marriage record, one from the Galway East center and one from the Galway West, and two slightly different transcriptions of the same church marriage record from the same center.

    That's NINE duplicate records. I didn't even realize it was that many. I'm gonna complain to them about it and demand credits. That's ridiculous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    They had a note about possible duplicates somewhere on their website, and I have heard of people asking for, and receiving credits when this happens.



    S.


  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭RGM


    shanew wrote: »
    They had a note about possible duplicates somewhere on their website, and I have heard of people asking for, and receiving credits when this happens.



    S.

    I'm sure they do, and I expected there to be errors. But nine? That's 225 credits!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    shanew wrote: »
    ....Once you have narrowed down a parish you can then search within that for siblings by leaving the parents names and trying first letter of all names in turn - starting with the more common ones P, M, C, K, W, J etc
    ....

    forget to include part 2 of this .... once you have a match by an initial, you can try adding a second letter, and see if you can keep the match count. If you do keep added more letters, if not rewind and try another one. Either all in order or by common patterns - e.g. if I get a match to P as an initial, I'd first try A as a 2nd on the basis that it could be Patrick or the equivalent in Latin. For M also try A for Mary/Maria/Matthew etc

    Eventually like a game of hangman, you can usually work out the name. You can do the same process for brides or mother's names.


    Shane


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Was on the Rootsireland site again - why is it that idiots run (ruin?) what could be Irelands best genealogy business?

    My supposition last spring that their cash-flow would suffer from the pricing change probably is correct – they now are offering an advance payment plan for conferences a year away - in June & Sept 2013. No lecture topics, no lecturers names, and the offer of a stupid £20 discount on only one of them, a 2% (yes, two) reduction.:rolleyes:

    As if that is not enough, they continue to lose the plot: a recent press release offers an advance purchase discount for a book fair – book now for £1 + a 50p booking fee and save on the door price of £2. Why bother??


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    John Grenham has quite a humo(u)rous blog post this week about the recent addition of Roscommon records.


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Lately I've noticed with different parishes in different counties that the holdings of 'computerised' parish records goes beyond what is stated on the list of records for each parish.

    So just an FYI to still search even if the parish records for the years you want do not seem to be on RootsIreland, according to the county pages.

    As an example, I though I was going to have to get in contact with a particular Limerick parish as RootsIreland says they only have baptismal records up to 1879 but when I checked up popped all the ones I needed in the 1890s.

    I won't even get started on the hundreds of free index credits I have and the dwindling record purchase credits!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    "Sanity returns to RootsIreland"

    Blogger Christ Patton has an article saying that RootsIreland have gone back to the previous payment system they had!

    http://britishgenes.blogspot.com/2013/02/sanity-returned-to-rootsireland.html


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