Cyclists, insurance and road tax

NickNickleby · 19-04-2021 4:33pm

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Nothing you've said negates what I said, there are exceptions and if they aren't clear then you should speak to whoever made them. Motor tax is related to your car, roads are paid for through general taxation. This isn't a matter of opinion. The tax is on emissions, and as your aren't emitting anything when the car is parked up for a long stretch, you don't pay.

But , I still think you are ignoring the elephant in the room. I only pay if my car is used on the road. Whatever name is applied to it, doesn't change that. Whatever way the roads are funded, doesn't change that. If I want to drive my car on the road, I have to show that I have paid a very specific tax. We can do without the snarky bits by the way.

statto25 · 19-04-2021 4:40pm

NickNickleby wrote: »

But , I still think you are ignoring the elephant in the room. I only pay if my car is used on the road. Whatever name is applied to it, doesn't change that. Whatever way the roads are funded, doesn't change that. If I want to drive my car on the road, I have to show that I have paid a very specific tax. We can do without the snarky bits by the way.

But it's not a tax for using the road. It's a tax for having a car. If you own the car and use it and drive it only on the footpath for the craic, it'll still need to be taxed when youre pulled over. What about cars parked in car parks that are done by traffic wardens for no motor tax? They aren't using the road at the time but a fine is issued.

John_Rambo · 19-04-2021 4:41pm

Good few modern motorists with knowledge of the ROTR defending cyclists

Obviously the younger cohort of drivers with proper, up to date lessons.
The boomer, pre-motorway 1990's taxi driver, "I pay me road tax" types are getting less obvious or getting educated by threads like this.

Eric Cartman · 19-04-2021 4:43pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Good few modern motorists with knowledge of the ROTR defending cyclists

Obviously the younger cohort of drivers with proper, up to date lessons.
The boomer, pre-motorway 1990's taxi driver, "I pay me road tax" types are getting less obvious or getting educated by threads like this.

2/10

km991148 · 19-04-2021 4:45pm

statto25 wrote: »

But it's not a tax for using the road. It's a tax for having a car. If you own the car and use it and drive it only on the footpath for the craic, it'll still need to be taxed when youre pulled over. What about cars parked in car parks that are done by traffic wardens for no motor tax? They aren't using the road at the time but a fine is issued.

Exactly. It's for usage in a public place. Based on emissions.

I'm happy to also pay ,for the bicycles on the same basis. Wouldn't want to be the emissions inspector tho..

I can also see it easily rigged VW style. No baked beans for the week leading up to the test?

ted1 · 19-04-2021 4:50pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

That's one of the reasons I have cycling insurance. In our claim happy culture here at least it offers some protection for someone trying to sue the ass off you.

You only get sued if you have insurance. A solicitor won’t take a case if he knows that there’s no money to pay for out

NickNickleby · 19-04-2021 5:27pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

2/10

Generous, if you ask me.

bigar · 19-04-2021 5:53pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

Totally agree, when you purchase a bike you should need to have it registered and a number attached so you can be identified just like a motor vehicle, cyclists that use public roads should have insurance. Anyone who cycles on public roads should have a licence or certificate to say that they are proficent in the rules of the road, but unfortunately we have no one in government including that clown in the green party to implament these things, oh and cyclists need to be allocated 90% of the road for their use.

Many countries used to have a tax and registration for bicycles but all stopped this as the costs for administration was much larger than the taxes they collected.
I know Ireland is about 20 years behind other countries for what cycling is concerned but maybe it can learn from the experience of other countries.

harmless · 19-04-2021 6:19pm

I think what it really comes down to is if you believe cycling should be encouraged or discouraged by the government.
So the real question is if more cyclists would be beneficial or detrimental to society.

Captain Flaps · 19-04-2021 6:35pm

NickNickleby wrote: »

But , I still think you are ignoring the elephant in the room. I only pay if my car is used on the road. Whatever name is applied to it, doesn't change that. Whatever way the roads are funded, doesn't change that. If I want to drive my car on the road, I have to show that I have paid a very specific tax. We can do without the snarky bits by the way.

There's no elephant in the room. You're paying a tax for the car that you own which is based on emissions. You are not paying a tax to use the road because the roads are paid for by general taxation, everyone pays for their upkeep regardless of usage. You pay a seperate tax on your private motor vehicle. It's the same way that you pay property tax if you own a house and you don't if you don't. I'm sorry if I'm being snarky but this is a really black and white discussion and you're looking for grey areas.

Sleeper12 · 19-04-2021 6:37pm

Sono Topolino wrote:

My opinions on this are not welcome on the cycling forum, so here we go.

The cycling forum is an echo chamber. Nothing against cyclists or cycling but not the best forums to visit if you have an opinion on hi viz jackets etc.

Sono Topolino wrote:

Why is it such a taboo to request cyclists to get insurance and pay taxes for the roads that they use, just like car drivers do?

I'm a motorist and have been since the mid 80s. In all that time I have never paid or been asked to pay direct taxes of any kind for roads.

Sono Topolino wrote:

"There is no such thing as road tax" cyclists bleat - except there are plenty of taxes that other road users have to pay, and cyclists pay none of them. There are plenty of tax breaks which cyclists can avail of, and second hand bikes which are dickied up to be as good as new are even VAT free.

I tax my car or van every year since the 80s. Before we had Internet or online we did it by post or went in & paid directly. In all this time I have never visited the road tax office nor have I ever sent payments to the road tax office. I just googled it and it came up with nothing on the road tax office.

What country do you live in? In Ireland you must pay motor tax if you have a car, van, motorbike etc but road tax is totally optional. The only road tax in Ireland are toll roads. You can choose to use these or not. Therefore you can choose to pay road tax or not.

CHESSMUTANT · 19-04-2021 6:43pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I dont see the mods intervening......

Posting to the cycling forum for almost 10 years. :rolleyes:

PeadarCo · 19-04-2021 6:50pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The cycling forum is an echo chamber. Nothing against cyclists or cycling but not the best forums to visit if you have an opinion on hi viz jackets etc.
.

You do know that there are megathreads devoted to helmets and high viz jackets in the cycling forum. So it's perfectly free to debate them in cycling forum. However there is far more to cycling than high viz or helmets. Both are fairly minor things in the grand scheme of things when it comes to cycling as much as a small minority obsess over them.

CHESSMUTANT · 19-04-2021 6:53pm

Sono Topolino wrote: »

My opinions on this are not welcome on the cycling forum, so here we go.

Sono Topolino wrote: »

But roads are meant for travel purposes - not for exercise. There are trails and amenities for that. Cyclists block up roads and slow drivers down when they go out for leisure rides, especially in rural areas. In cities, cycling is a viable form of transport but cyclists should stick to cycle lanes and stop causing traffic jams.

It's a mystery.

NickNickleby · 19-04-2021 6:55pm

Captain Flaps wrote: »

There's no elephant in the room. You're paying a tax for the car that you own which is based on emissions. You are not paying a tax to use the road because the roads are paid for by general taxation, everyone pays for their upkeep regardless of usage. You pay a seperate tax on your private motor vehicle. It's the same way that you pay property tax if you own a house and you don't if you don't. I'm sorry if I'm being snarky but this is a really black and white discussion and you're looking for grey areas.

Fair enough, I probably overreacted to what I saw as a put-down.

I am not a member of the "tax-the-cyclist-brigade". But, I can't see past what I see as a de-facto Road Tax.

Once upon a time, motor tax rates were based upon unladen weight. Then it was Horsepower, and now its emissions. When all vehicles are zero emission, I expect the rating will be something like annual mileage or the like. But we'll have a long wait for that. I've always felt that motor tax (God, I'm really starting to hate the expression) should be abolished and roads funded by additional fuel tax. The more you use the roads, the more fuel you use, therefore the more tax you pay.

CHESSMUTANT · 19-04-2021 7:03pm

Sono Topolino wrote: »

Motor tax

The clue is in the title. It's 2 words, so it's only fair that I give you 3 guesses.

zerosugarbuzz · 19-04-2021 7:28pm

Phoenix park car park closed at 6pm every day now too. I guess we have the cyclists lobby to blame for that too &#55357;&#56865;

mr potato head · 19-04-2021 7:36pm

The reasoning for both taxing and licencing drivers and not cyclists comes down to potential harm of poor operation and harm to society (financial, environmental and social).
The automotive industry is subsidised by the taxpayer, if you were to pay the true impact of an ICE car or EV you would pay far more Motor Tax.

We switched to a single-car household (an EV) and cycle to work unless bringing a large amount of equipment with me. While we took advantage of the grants, but I would be much more in favour of extensive grants for active travel and micro-mobility around the country.
Grants for e-bikes and cargo bikes as well as extensive reallocation of road space to active travel would have a big impact on traffic and the economy.

As this research indicates, automobility is heavily subsidized in the European Union, at an estimated €500 billion per year, while active transportation represents a benefit to society currently worth an annual €24 billion (cycling) and €66 billion (walking). Specifically, in cities, the long-standing focus on automobility as the favoured transport mode should consequently change. The Social Cost of Automobility, Cycling and Walking in the European Union. Gössling et al, 2019

No reason why Ireland could not have a healthy manufacturing segment around bikes/cargo bikes/micromobility

Cycling on the other hand requires neither imported cars nor imported fuel. Holland annually produces more than 400,000 bicycles.
The study shows:

For every Euro spent on fuel, only 4% remains in the local economy
For every Euro a cyclist spends, 32% remains in the local economy

Cost-benefit of cycling infrastructure. Garrett, 2019 (https://cyclingsolutions.info/cost-benefit-of-cycling-infrastructure/)

There are some interesting (disturbing) studies of driver behaviour towards cyclists and on societal attitudes towards cyclists:

"The qualitative analysis, aimed at understanding dangerous and intimidating driver behavior directed at bicyclists, revealed two themes. The first was that the aggressors might frame their behavior as serving a constructive purpose, namely, “teaching them a lesson.” The second was that drivers might neutralize their deviant behavior by suggesting that the bicyclists “had it coming” (i.e., somehow deserved this treatment)."
Bicycle Backlash Qualitative Examination of Aggressive Driver–Bicyclist Interactions. Piatkowski et al. 2017

I see these behaviours on a daily basis when both driving and cycling

John_Rambo · 19-04-2021 7:37pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Good few modern motorists with knowledge of the ROTR defending cyclists

Obviously the younger cohort of drivers with proper, up to date lessons.
The boomer, pre-motorway 1990's taxi driver, "I pay me road tax" types are getting less obvious or getting educated by threads like this.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

2/10

Sorry boomer taxi driver that "pays me road tax". Back to your rank to complain about de foreigners, de covid, de cyclists and de bleeding queue at the airport!!!

I'm afraid your outdated, there's a new cohort of people that actually know how to drive properly now.

ExMachina1000 · 19-04-2021 7:48pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Sorry boomer taxi driver that "pays me road tax". Back to your rank to complain about de foreigners, de covid, de cyclists and de bleeding queue at the airport!!!

I'm afraid your outdated, there's a new cohort of people that actually know how to drive properly now.

Why is ageism acceptable to get your point across?
Totally unnecessary

beggars_bush · 19-04-2021 7:56pm

Sono Topolino wrote: »

1. There's no VAT on second hand bicycles - even if they're as good as new.
2. Cyclists can get 50% off the price of a new bike via the BTW scheme. Note, there's nobody checking if they use this bike to get to work!
3. Motor tax and VRT are taxes on road vehicles.

The Irish people are subsidising people owning bikes, which would be fair enough in the middle of Dublin but makes no sense in Castlepolard, Co. Westmeath.

Some lovely cycles around Pollard

We should be subsidising cycling to reduce car usage and encouraging kids and adults to exercise more

John_Rambo · 19-04-2021 8:02pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Why is ageism acceptable to get your point across?
Totally unnecessary

I'm probably older than him, so stop getting offended for other people and dry your eyes snowflake!! :pac:

ExMachina1000 · 19-04-2021 8:06pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

I'm probably older than him, so stop getting offended for other people and dry your eyes snowflake!! :pac:

If it were a racist or trans phobic comment it wouldn't be permitted would it.

Cop on. There are other ways to get your point across

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 8:24pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

If it were a racist or trans phobic comment it wouldn't be permitted would it.

Is this your first time on Boards.ie?

19-04-2021 8:50pm

Sono Topolino wrote: »

My opinions on this are not welcome on the cycling forum, so here we go.

Why is it such a taboo to request cyclists to get insurance and pay taxes for the roads that they use, just like car drivers do?

Its just not a done thing to ask anything of the almighty cyclist lobby.

A protected species category, you're always the bad guy in any argument.

They can do no wrong.

John_Rambo · 19-04-2021 8:51pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

If it were a racist or trans phobic comment it wouldn't be permitted would it.

Cop on. There are other ways to get your point across

Aaaaaww.. do you want me to get a ladder and climb up to you on your high horse to blow your nose and wipe your tears?

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 9:02pm

85603 wrote: »

Its just not a done thing to ask anything of the almighty cyclist lobby.

A protected species category, you're always the bad guy in any argument.

They can do no wrong.

Or else you could just try and put out some facts and evidence to support your ideas. Anytime you're ready there....

Fighting Tao · 19-04-2021 9:06pm

85603 wrote: »

Its just not a done thing to ask anything of the almighty cyclist lobby.

A protected species category, you're always the bad guy in any argument.

They can do no wrong.

When you say something outside of your normal echo chamber you should expect to pulled up on what you say when it is incorrect.

Sono Topolino · 19-04-2021 9:33pm

The cardinal rule of taxation is that tax paid by people.

Motor tax is not paid by motor vehicles because vehicles can't pay tax. It is a tax paid by a particular people, a class of road users, i.e. drivers.

Motor tax is road user tax, but only some road users pay it and this is unjust. If we're trying to make it an emissions tax, then we should simply have a single carbon consumption tax captiring petrol, beef, home fuel etc.

Pinch Flat · 19-04-2021 9:35pm

Sono Topolino wrote: »

The cardinal rule of taxation is that tax paid by people.

Motor tax is not paid by motor vehicles because vehicles can't pay tax. It is a tax paid by a particular people, a class of road users, i.e. drivers.

Motor tax is road user tax, but only some road users pay it and this is unjust. If we're trying to make it an emissions tax, then we should simply have a single carbon consumption tax captiring petrol, beef, home fuel etc.

So using that logic no taxation for cyclists. Or are we saying perhaps a tax for breathing while cycling?

Cyclists, insurance and road tax

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