The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

jmcc · 19-04-2021 5:55pm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

The story has also been covered by the Irish times, the Irish examiner, bbc, rte and even the Irish news so I wouldn't get too hung up on shooting the messenger

This is how the propagation works:
The Sindo/Indo runs the story and bangs on with it for a week or so.
The Irish Examiner and Irish Times then pick up the story and rehash it. (The Irish Examiner is owned by the Irish Times.) DPC writes to SF with questions about how data is being used. RTE even ran the comments from Eoin O'Broin:

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/0419/1210760-sinn-fein-politics/

The DPC will have to examine SF's reply and decide if further action, if any, is necessary.

The RTE article mentioned the term "data mining" so no doubt the FGers will want to know the location of SF's secret data mines and if they comply with health and safety regulations.

Regards...jmcc

skimpydoo · 19-04-2021 6:28pm

jmcc wrote: »

Weckler's comments on this would have been interesting as he studied law. He might, as a result, have a better understanding of GDPR.

Regards...jmcc

Weckler is a decent journalist with no axe to grind and as a techie writer with a law degree, he would have some interesting observations.

I also notice the usual suspects did not respond to or like my comments. I kinda suspected this would happen and I am also not surprised.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 7:28pm

skimpydoo wrote: »

I would want to know what is going on too, like all of us do. However, with one caveat, the journalist covering this story has to be impartial.

Why? That's just ad hominem.

I have previously stated that news agencies like Russia Today occasionally have useful items even though their position is always that of the Russian government. You have to be critical, but that's generally a healthy thing to practice in general with media.

Broadsheets will generally have higher quality articles irrespective of affiliation than tabloids. The very best journalists prevent their personal biases affecting the content of their writing.

It actually annoys me greatly when nonsense issues are pursued as it distracts from more pressing concerns. Furthermore if you constantly cry wolf it can actively undermine more serious discussion. There is some thought that the very act of badmouthing an individual or party is good enough as the public will be inclined to feel that there's no smoke without fire. I don't know if that's true in general.

skimpydoo · 19-04-2021 7:54pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Why? That's just ad hominem.

I have previously stated that news agencies like Russia Today occasionally have useful items even though their position is always that of the Russian government. You have to be critical, but that's generally a healthy thing to practice in general with media.

Broadsheets will generally have higher quality articles irrespective of affiliation than tabloids. The very best journalists prevent their personal biases affecting the content of their writing.

I wouldn't class Philip Ryan as one of the very best journalists. If the story had been written by someone like Mick Clifford, I would have more time for it. He is one of the top journalists in Ireland.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 8:03pm

skimpydoo wrote: »

I wouldn't class Philip Ryan as one of the very best journalists.

I'm not saying he is. I don't know enough about him to comment one way or the other. Regardless, the quality of the journalist doesn't automatically make the topic they are talking about either valid or invalid.

GDPR isn't as complicated as a lot of people make it out to be. Informed consent and transparency are its watchwords. Sinn Fein ahs been careful to insist that its data entirely met the criteria of informed consent. I would guess that the very fact that they were developing this Abu database at all meant that they were at least bending GDPR rules (I'm talking about opportunity and motive). However without being able to see what is stored, or the handling chain, it is impossible to tell for sure.

Of course if you don't like that particular journalist you can pick another
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/jennifer-bray-what-s-the-story-with-sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-voter-database-1.4538735

Naturally jmcc insinuates that the great media conspiracy has already poisoned the well

blanch152 · 19-04-2021 8:04pm

skimpydoo wrote: »

I also notice the usual suspects did not respond to or like my comments. I kinda suspected this would happen and I am also not surprised.

Did you add anything new?

Bubbaclaus · 19-04-2021 8:04pm

skimpydoo wrote: »

I wouldn't class Philip Ryan as one of the very best journalists. If the story had been written by someone like Mick Clifford, I would have more time for it. He is one of the top journalists in Ireland.

Here is a good article by Michael Clifford.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-31006275.html#.Xu3Is1i9AEQ.twitter

Increasingly in some quarters of politics, social media is used to attempt to systemically discredit the media. This is designed to encourage the public to ignore anything negative that appears in the media about a particular politician or party.

Don’t believe what is broadcast, or what you read, because it is the product of irredeemable bias. Ignore the facts, concentrate on the deep flaws of the messenger, which render the facts irrelevant.

That is the tactic deployed and it is reaping success in undermining the media’s role in holding power to account.

The obvious example in this respect is Donald Trump. He is a master at crying “fake news” about anything that paints him in a negative light, irrespective of the facts. His success is evidenced by his huge following which has been conditioned to view any negative coverage of him as really a reflection on the media peddling “alternative facts”.

This tactic is now increasingly being deployed in Britain by Boris Johnson’s 'brain', Dominic Cummings.

Every political party and politician believes at some point that they don’t get a fair shake in the media.

But there is copious evidence that Jude Collins’ assertion that the mainstream media is constitutionally biased against Sinn Féin is widely shared by many, if not most, within the party.

Mr Collins gave to me the example of media bias in how Martin McGuinness was questioned about past IRA murders when he ran for president in 2011.

But, I said, other candidates in that election were quizzed extensively about past personal conduct and financial matters. Oh, says Jude, that’s different.

It’s always different, it would appear, when it comes to perceptions among the Shinners of media bias.

Any coverage that touches on the party’s past, culture, structures or extraordinary wealth is deemed unacceptable and actually a product of this bias. On social media, coverage of these issues is presented as examples of how “the media” has it in for the party. This sentiment is then amplified exponentially in the echo chamber of social media.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2021 8:05pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Why? That's just ad hominem.

I have previously stated that news agencies like Russia Today occasionally have useful items even though their position is always that of the Russian government. You have to be critical, but that's generally a healthy thing to practice in general with media.

Broadsheets will generally have higher quality articles irrespective of affiliation than tabloids. The very best journalists prevent their personal biases affecting the content of their writing.

It actually annoys me greatly when nonsense issues are pursued as it distracts from more pressing concerns. Furthermore if you constantly cry wolf it can actively undermine more serious discussion. There is some thought that the very act of badmouthing an individual or party is good enough as the public will be inclined to feel that there's no smoke without fire. I don't know if that's true in general.

Read the article P. Ryan wrote yesterday. It is clear he has an agenda to make this look as cloak and dagger as he possibly can. The language used -

has revealed what many in political circles have suspected for a long time

' -

'secret'

. It's an internal party facility, not for general use. Why would the ordinary voter know about this and who was it 'secret' from? Never explained.
I, as an ordinary voter have no idea what systems FF FG Lab PBP use but I wouldn't refer to them as 'secret'.

The actuality is, questions have been raised about this, and SF are doing what they are supposed to do - liaising with the DPC.

Another indicator is yet again a negative article about SF is not behind the paywall...that's a dead give away with the Indo

skimpydoo · 19-04-2021 8:14pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Did you add anything new?

Enough to show that anyone who wants proper justice would have agreed.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 8:20pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Read the article P. Ryan wrote yesterday. It is clear he has an agenda to make this look as cloak and dagger as he possibly can. The language used - ' - . It's an internal party facility, not for general use. Why would the ordinary voter know about this and who was it 'secret' from? Never explained.

Maybe? I dunno, I'm not here to defend Ryan.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I, as an ordinary voter have no idea what systems FF FG Lab PBP use but I wouldn't refer to them as 'secret'.

Transparency is actually quite important here. Presumably the other parties may well have some sort of databases relating to campaigning, but not necessarily. The smaller parties may not have the funds to pursue such campaigning strategies. Sinn Fein is clearly the most active online, and with the largest budget of any party, so it makes sense that they would be doing this sort of campaigning.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The actuality is, questions have been raised about this, and SF are doing what they are supposed to do - liaising with the DPC.

Okay.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Another indicator is yet again a negative article about SF is not behind the paywall...that's a dead give away with the Indo

Oh Jaysis

skimpydoo wrote: »

Enough to show that anyone who wants proper justice would have agreed.

I responded to your post as well as possible. You're going to get thanked by Sinn Fein people by default. That's not exactly an indicator of objectivity.

19-04-2021 8:23pm

The ordinary voter certainly knows about it now
The reason I suspect the SF cohort here are upset about this (and so they should be!) Is stuff like cambridge anayltics or hacking associations resonates with voters and they may turn off SF suggestions or restrict them (and other parties too I suppose) on facebook and other social media limiting a crucial audience
Best sorted soon would be my advice
Better messaging when you're not muted

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2021 8:25pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Transparency is actually quite important here. Presumably the other parties may well have some sort of databases relating to campaigning, but not necessarily. The smaller parties may not have the funds to pursue such campaigning strategies. Sinn Fein is clearly the most active online, and with the largest budget of any party, so it makes sense that they would be doing this sort of campaigning.

Where is the lack of transparency though?
Questions were raised, SF say they are compliant, the DPC is looking into it, everything that should happen.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 8:29pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the lack of transparency though?

Well I don't know, I only heard about Abu the other day (I'm not saying that for ironic effect, I mean that I don't know enough about it to comment).

I was just taking your own assertion that it was secret, or.. well.. your tacit agreement that it was secret.

blanch152 · 19-04-2021 8:31pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the lack of transparency though?
Questions were raised, SF say they are compliant, the DPC is looking into it, everything that should happen.

Sinn Fein have refused to answer questions posed by the media, that is a lack of transparency.

Instead, the journalists asking the questions have been pilloried on social media - see those going after Ryan here - in an effort to play shoot the messenger.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2021 8:32pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well I don't know, I only heard about Abu the other day (I'm not saying that for ironic effect, I mean that I don't know enough about it to comment).

I was just taking your own assertion that it was secret, or.. well.. your tacit agreement that it was secret.

Not knowing about it, doesn't mean it was 'secret' as the 'impartial' author claimed.

It is an internal party facility, why would anyone outside the party know about it, or any other party's facility?

The Indo are masters at language and slant like this.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 8:32pm

Marine Layer wrote: »

Better messaging when you're not muted

The party's official way of responding to controversy is to say as little as possible. Batten down the hatches, don't elaborate, keep a neutral tone. It's an interesting (and probably effective) strategy to make items go away.

Their supporters claiming that such stories are the product of media bias and large political conspiracies seems like a less successful strategy, but who knows, perhaps the two approaches are symbiotic.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2021 8:33pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein have refused to answer questions posed by the media, that is a lack of transparency.

Instead, the journalists asking the questions have been pilloried on social media - see those going after Ryan here - in an effort to play shoot the messenger.

No they haven't refused, they have said several times, that their system is compliant.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2021 8:35pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

The party's official way of responding to controversy is to say as little as possible. Batten down the hatches, don't elaborate, keep a neutral tone. It's an interesting (and probably effective) strategy to make items go away.

Their supporters claiming that such stories are the product of media bias and large political conspiracies seems like a less successful strategy, but who knows, perhaps the two approaches are symbiotic.

They are answerable to the DPC. Not journalists.

I presume it is a method they want to protect.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 8:35pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is an internal party facility, why would anyone outside the party know about it, or any other party's facility?

Well no, that's not actually the case.

Even if the specific name they gave it were not generally known, the actual existence and purpose of it should be known in order for it to be above board. It's not enough to ask people for their data, there should be easily accessible information about what that data is used for. Essentially the existence and purpose of Abu should be publicly known, in order to be legitimate.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 8:39pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein have refused to answer questions posed by the media, that is a lack of transparency.

No the key aspect of transparency relates specifically to what people, whose data was collected, knew about the collection, consented to it, and knew what potential purposes that data was to be used for. Legally speaking.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2021 8:41pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well no, that's not actually the case.

Even if the specific name they gave it were not generally known, the actual existence and purpose of it is supposed to be above board. It's not enough to ask people to be able to take their data, there should be easily accessible information about what that data is used for. Essentially the existence and purpose of Abu should be publicly known, in order to be legitimate.

So how do we not know whether other parties use 'systems' or not?

IF SF have been collecting data they shouldn't have been and didn't inform that is a GDPR issue.

RandomName2 · 19-04-2021 8:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So how do we not know whether other parties use 'systems' or not?

We don't, though smaller parties would be less likely to have similar.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

IF SF have been collecting data they shouldn't have been and didn't inform that is a GDPR issue.

Yes, that's correct.

jmcc · 19-04-2021 10:33pm

It is funny how it is described as a "sophisticated database". The schema for such a small database, as described by the reports, would be quite simple. Polling companies also try to measure voting intentions and they even record personal identifiers such as IP addresses for online polls and phone numbers for those surveyed.

This is an interesting quote from Simon McGarr in the Irish Times article linked above:
"He says that while the national law – the Data Protection Act of 2018 – allows for the processing of personal data revealing political opinions where it is done in the course of electoral activities, this goes much further than what GDPR allows for.

In that instance, such processing of information is allowed only when “the operation of the democratic system in a member state requires that political parties compile personal data on people’s political opinions.”"

Regards...jmcc

markodaly · 20-04-2021 12:42am

jmcc wrote: »

It is funny how it is described as a "sophisticated database". The schema for such a small database, as described by the reports, would be quite simple. Polling companies also try to measure voting intentions and they even record personal identifiers such as IP addresses for online polls and phone numbers for those surveyed.

This is an interesting quote from Simon McGarr in the Irish Times article linked above:
"He says that while the national law – the Data Protection Act of 2018 – allows for the processing of personal data revealing political opinions where it is done in the course of electoral activities, this goes much further than what GDPR allows for.

In that instance, such processing of information is allowed only when “the operation of the democratic system in a member state requires that political parties compile personal data on people’s political opinions.”"

Regards...jmcc

To add...

Solicitor Simon McGarr, a director of Data Compliance Europe, has pointed out that Article 9 of the GDPR creates a general prohibition on processing data on people’s political opinions.

He says that while the national law – the Data Protection Act of 2018 – allows for the processing of personal data revealing political opinions where it is done in the course of electoral activities, this goes much further than what GDPR allows for.

European Law trumps national law....

“The political system has, until now, taken a taken an identity approach: if you are a party or electoral candidate, it was suggested that you are exempt in all your political data processing. But, in fact, the GDPR only allows for a limited and purpose-based exemption,”

The Irish Times also asked Sinn Féin where exactly in the EU the database is hosted but the party declined to answer.

I guess its all a conspiracy. Poor SF!

20-04-2021 12:56am

Lads - the multi quotes; the 'points of order'; the dictionary definitions, and the whataboutery is just becoming a very tedious read for the more casual visitor to the forum.

There's an absolute belter of a story about to emerge in the next few weeks. Proper stuff. I'm thinking at least 3 threads worth of deflection, whataboutery, and substantial mod interventions. Maybe use the time between then and now to read one or two of the classics (The Master and Margarita is a tremendous book); take up running, maybe plant a few herbs and vegetables during the peak late April/Early May period.

jmcc · 20-04-2021 1:22am

It is fascinating to see the deflection from FG on this story. The exact schema or content of the database has not been disclosed but suddenly everyone is an expert on database matters. And this is all based on the story in the Sindo.

Regards...jmcc

20-04-2021 8:02am

jmcc wrote: »

It is fascinating to see the deflection from FG on this story. The exact schema or content of the database has not been disclosed but suddenly everyone is an expert on database matters. And this is all based on the story in the Sindo.

Regards...jmcc

Lads and ladies don’t have to be experts on outer joins, tuples, mongodb, and geospatial data types to want to know the following:

What’s in the database about them
Who has access to that
How they can find out what’s in the database about them.

You don’t have to be a tech hotshot like yourself to work that out.

StupidLikeAFox · 20-04-2021 8:30am

jmcc wrote: »

The exact schema or content of the database has not been disclosed but suddenly everyone is an expert on database matters.

Just two post up you brought up "The schema for such a small database, as described by the reports, would be quite simple"

You are literally the only one trying to portray yourself as a database expert.

blanch152 · 20-04-2021 9:08am

RandomName2 wrote: »

No the key aspect of transparency relates specifically to what people, whose data was collected, knew about the collection, consented to it, and knew what potential purposes that data was to be used for. Legally speaking.

In this case, the media are representing the people affected. It is a clear example of public interest journalism.

RandomName2 · 20-04-2021 9:14am

jmcc wrote: »

It is fascinating to see the deflection from FG on this story. The exact schema or content of the database has not been disclosed but suddenly everyone is an expert on database matters. And this is all based on the story in the Sindo.

Regards...jmcc

I'm beginning to doubt whether you know what the word 'deflection' means.

The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

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