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Israel and the UAE normalize relations

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Comments

  • #32
    SixtaWalthers
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭SixtaWalthers


    This deals only give one message that power and economic benefits matter for the world. Human rights don't even exist. How it is easy to grab anyone's land and start calling it their own place. Israel President also said he suspended annexation for a short time. They didn't end it. By the way, it is only stance of arab leadership. I don't know exactly what is the mood of arab street.


  • #33
    Irishman80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭Irishman80


    Bowie wrote: »
    Wiping out the Palestinians and any other dissenting voice would bring a peace. Akin to the peace Hitler would have brought had he succeeded in butchering all dissenting voices.

    This moment doesn't wipe out the Palestinian voice. Instead, it completely ends the possibility of Israel annexing the West Bank. For good.

    It also removes a major hurdle towards achieving a two State solution - recognising the right an Israeli State to exist in the Middle East and getting Arabs and Israelis around a table to discuss these issues.

    This is a major step to a peaceful Israel-Palestine future. A good day for moderates who want to find peace. A bad day for extremists who want to wipe each other out.


  • #34
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    coinop wrote: »
    Lol you've been banging that same drum for over 20 years now and what have you achieved? Nada. The IPSC struggles to gather more than a handful of crusties at their meetings. Same old faces and getting older. BDS has been a dismal failure and its poster boy in Ireland, self-confessed drug dealer and woman beater Joe Loughnane, has been exposed and crawled back into his cave. Do you ever regret wasting so much of your precious life on this nonsense? You're on the wrong side of history. Every extra day in existence is a victory for Israel, and every day it becomes more accepted and normalised even by its former enemies.


    Imagine if everything calms down in the Palestine/Israel, they would be lost, needing to find a new cause. I'm sure they will still take their trips to Gaza/West Bank for god knows what they do be up to when they are over there.


  • #35
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Irishman80 wrote: »
    This moment doesn't wipe out the Palestinian voice. Instead, it completely ends the possibility of Israel annexing the West Bank. For good.

    It also removes a major hurdle towards achieving a two State solution - recognising the right an Israeli State to exist in the Middle East and getting Arabs and Israelis around a table to discuss these issues.

    This is a major step to a peaceful Israel-Palestine future. A good day for moderates who want to find peace. A bad day for extremists who want to wipe each other out.

    You mean annex 'further' and 'for now'. BiB disagrees with your analysis.

    A major hurdle to the two state solution is BiBi and his followers refusing the two state solution. Moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was another.

    It's window dressing so the UAE can save some face for now.


  • #36
    Irishman80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭Irishman80


    Bowie wrote: »
    You mean annex 'further' and 'for now'. BiB disagrees with your analysis.

    A major hurdle to the two state solution is BiBi and his followers refusing the two state solution. Moving from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was another.

    It's window dressing so the UAE can save some face for now.

    No. The Trump administration will not greenlight any annexation of the West Bank now. The Biden administration has also come out and stated they will not greenlight any annexation. The annexation plan is dead in the water.

    People just have to look to the groups opposed to this deal: Iran, Turkey, Hamas, Hezbollah, right wing Jewish settlers. And look at the groups welcoming the deal: The US, UK, Germany, France, the UN, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, left-wing pro-Palestinian Jewish groups like J-Street, and many Gulf States.

    Saudi Arabia hasn't commented yet but I expect if Bahrain follow suit and normalise relations, that will equate to a tacit approval of the Arab-Israeli normalisation process.

    The path to a peaceful two state solution is now a firm reality. It's a good day.


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  • #37
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Irishman80 wrote: »
    No. The Trump administration will not greenlight any annexation of the West Bank now. The Biden administration has also come out and stated they will not greenlight any annexation. The annexation plan is dead in the water.

    People just have to look to the groups opposed to this deal: Iran, Turkey, Hamas, Hezbollah, right wing Jewish settlers. And look at the groups welcoming the deal: The US, UK, Germany, France, the UN, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, left-wing pro-Palestinian Jewish groups like J-Street, and many Gulf States.

    Saudi Arabia hasn't commented yet but I expect if Bahrain follow suit and normalise relations, that will equate to a tacit approval of the Arab-Israeli normalisation process.

    The path to a peaceful two state solution is now a firm reality. It's a good day.

    He agreed to 'suspend' it, for now. His words. Will they be giving back the land they annexed already?
    Will Israel answer for it's war crimes?

    I see a lot of the same countries supported the war in Iraq, WOMD and the like. Hardly authorities on playing it straight. The same people trade with China and Putin, stellar quality outfits.

    This is about money and the UAE saving face after selling out the Palestinians.

    Israel needs to withdraw and apologise, pay reparations, then engage in true two state talks of substance.


  • #38
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Anti Fat Aktion wrote: »
    Not true. Once you get out of the sad old crustie and student activist circles, most people don't care.

    Sure even if you criticise Israel you may get labelled "anti-Semitic"


  • #39
    Irishman80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭Irishman80


    Bowie wrote: »
    He agreed to 'suspend' it, for now. His words. Will they be giving back the land they annexed already?
    Will Israel answer for it's war crimes?

    I see a lot of the same countries supported the war in Iraq, WOMD and the like. Hardly authorities on playing it straight. The same people trade with China and Putin, stellar quality outfits.

    This is about money and the UAE saving face after selling out the Palestinians..

    That's just a political statement from him trying to shore up the right wing settlers, which won't work.

    In the context of a two State solution, I'd hope both sides get a good bit of what they want while making compromises.

    I'm a firm believer in people answering for war crimes - whether that's Isrealis, Palesinians, Americans, British, or Irish people who committed them in the North. In the context of finding peace, this is often not a possibility. I'll still call out these disgusting people who commits these.

    I agree with you on Putin and China. The world should shun them. Irish leaders are pathetic in their response to these - a shame on our country.

    These deals will always be about competing interests - economic, security, culture, trade, religious, etc. There's nothing surprising about that.


  • #40
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Irishman80 wrote: »
    That's just a political statement from him trying to shore up the right wing settlers, which won't work.

    In the context of a two State solution, I'd hope both sides get a good bit of what they want while making compromises.

    I'm a firm believer in people answering for war crimes - whether that's Isrealis, Palesinians, Americans, British, or Irish people who committed them in the North. In the context of finding peace, this is often not a possibility. I'll still call out these disgusting people who commits these.

    I agree with you on Putin and China. The world should shun them. Irish leaders are pathetic in their response to these - a shame on our country.

    These deals will always be about competing interests - economic, security, culture, trade, religious, etc. There's nothing surprising about that.

    The leader of Israel said 'suspend for now'. Trump flip flops and couldn't give a rats arse.

    What compromises would you think the Palestinians could make?

    Hardly an endorsement of this leading to a peace is it?


  • #41
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Bowie wrote: »
    Hardly an endorsement of this leading to a peace is it?

    Sticking with the thread, what problem do you have with UAE recognizing Israel?


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  • #42
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,970 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Sticking with the thread, what problem do you have with UAE recognizing Israel?




    It's normalising relations with a state acting outside the UN charter by its colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc.


  • #43
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    How fascist of you to be telling the descendants of Israeli ethnic cleansing what they should be.

    There is no such country as "Palestine".

    There is a region known as Palestine in which nation states such as Jordan, Egypt and Israel are located. There is no nation state called "Palestine".


  • #44
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »
    Not quite so simple. I wasn't born in Ireland, but I lived there for almost my entire childhood and adolescence. I have no national identity other than Irish.

    Your nationality is determined by citizenship. Someone ceases being an immigrant when they become a citizen of the country they immigrated to.


  • #45
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Sticking with the thread, what problem do you have with UAE recognizing Israel?

    They are legitimising Israels actions or in the least giving an 'all's forgiven' which would be fine if Israel had made moves towards a real peace.
    Also it gives the false perception that the Arab world are okay with how Israel behaves. Trump was selling it like two sides have become friends. That will be the spin.
    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    There is no such country as "Palestine".

    There is a region known as Palestine in which nation states such as Jordan, Egypt and Israel are located. There is no nation state called "Palestine".

    If I were an Israeli spinbot I'd try something a little less on the nose than 'sean' ;)


  • #46
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    Your nationality is determined by citizenship. Someone ceases being an immigrant when they become a citizen of the country they immigrated to.

    What about dual citizenship and birth certificates?


  • #47
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Bowie wrote: »
    He agreed to 'suspend' it, for now. His words. Will they be giving back the land they annexed already?
    Will Israel answer for it's war crimes?

    I see a lot of the same countries supported the war in Iraq, WOMD and the like. Hardly authorities on playing it straight. The same people trade with China and Putin, stellar quality outfits.

    This is about money and the UAE saving face after selling out the Palestinians.

    Israel needs to withdraw and apologise, pay reparations, then engage in true two state talks of substance.

    The Palestinians sold out again by their Arab "brothers". When will the penny drop withthem that with good negotiators a compromise could be made with Israel that would guarantee peace and prosperity for both peoples.
    Or do they believe that no bread is better than half a loaf.
    Egypt Jordan Lebanon U.A.E. are all happy to deal with Israel. The Palestinians are running
    out of friends. But never fear Rich Boy Barrett and Posh Boy Murphy can always gather a few scum for a solidarity protest


  • #48
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Israel came into existence because of world (effectively the West) guilt due to the atrocities committed against those with the Jewish religion primarily during the aftermath of WW2, and somewhat due to prior centuries of discrimination.
    No,no,no,no,no.
    It's the height of historical revisionism to suggest that Israel owes its existence as a country to Western guilt after the Holocaust.
    European Jews started migrating to Palestine (a province of the Ottoman Empire) and purchasing land over 50 years before the Holocaust happened.

    In 1917 when the British took over the region, the Balfour Declaration set out a goal of setting up a Jewish state and an Arab state in the region. The British proposed a two state solution as early as 1936.

    Yes, the Holocaust was a catalyst for the UN Partition of 1947 that allowed Israel to declare independence but it wasn't as if the West just decided to plant to Jews there right after the Holocaust and kick out all the Arabs. There was already a substantial Jewish presence there.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    However, Israels treatment of the Palestinians and their push into further areas for Livingspace is indefensible.
    You mean their treatment of Arabs who never bothered setting up a state when they were given the right to by the UN? Who declared war instead?
    The Arabs who didn't fight Israel were allowed to stay. It was only the ones who assisted invading armies from surrounding countries that were forcibly removed.


  • #49
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Bowie wrote: »
    What about dual citizenship and birth certificates?

    Yes, dual-nationality is a thing.


  • #50
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,970 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    You mean their treatment of Arabs who never bothered setting up a state when they were given the right to by the UN? Who declared war instead?
    The Arabs who didn't fight Israel were allowed to stay. It was only the ones who assisted invading armies from surrounding countries that were forcibly removed.




    A nonsense. I'd suggest reading



    https://www.amazon.co.uk/1948-History-First-Arab-Israeli-War/dp/0300151128/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=The+Birth+of+the+Palestinian+Refugee+Problem+Revisited%27&qid=1597424650&sr=8-5
    and/or
    https://www.bookdepository.com/Birth-Palestinian-Refugee-Problem-Revisited-Benny-Morris/9780521009676?ref=grid-view&qid=1597424749183&sr=1-1


    (You might get a cheaper copy secondhand)


  • #51
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Edgware wrote: »
    The Palestinians sold out again by their Arab "brothers". When will the penny drop withthem that with good negotiators a compromise could be made with Israel that would guarantee peace and prosperity for both peoples.
    Or do they believe that no bread is better than half a loaf.
    Egypt Jordan Lebanon U.A.E. are all happy to deal with Israel. The Palestinians are running
    out of friends. But never fear Rich Boy Barrett and Posh Boy Murphy can always gather a few scum for a solidarity protest

    BiBi and the current Israel regime have no interest in compromise. As soon as BiBi the criminal gets sent down we might see some hope.
    No, decent moral people will always fight against genocide and unwarranted terrorism.


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  • #52
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    ...


    You mean their treatment of Arabs who never bothered setting up a state when they were given the right to by the UN? Who declared war instead?
    The Arabs who didn't fight Israel were allowed to stay. It was only the ones who assisted invading armies from surrounding countries that were forcibly removed.

    You whinge about people wanting to destroy Israel but won't even recognise the Palestinians.
    What about the family homes getting bulldozed in modern times?


  • #53
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    Yes, dual-nationality is a thing.

    So you can be from two places at once. I'd imagine many an Israeli citizen won't give up any dual citizenship, in case it goes tits up.


  • #54
    coinop
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 315 ✭✭coinop


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Sticking with the thread, what problem do you have with UAE recognizing Israel?

    This is the crux of the matter. Crusties would hate if Israel made peace with all of it neighbours. Their entire identity is based on wearing keffiyehs (cringe) and hating Israel.


  • #55
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    coinop wrote: »
    This is the crux of the matter. Crusties would hate if Israel made peace with all of it neighbours. Their entire identity is based on wearing keffiyehs (cringe) and hating Israel.

    They'll still have N. Korea, China, Russia and the Trump administration.


  • #56
    statesaver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭statesaver


    A very welcome development. Congratulations to all involved.


  • #57
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,970 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    statesaver wrote: »
    A very welcome development. Congratulations to all involved.




    Given the fact that the UAE is an absolute monarchy, there may have been far fewer involved than you might think.


  • #58
    Irishman80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭Irishman80


    Bowie wrote: »
    The leader of Israel said 'suspend for now'. Trump flip flops and couldn't give a rats arse.

    What compromises would you think the Palestinians could make?

    Hardly an endorsement of this leading to a peace is it?

    First major thing the Palestinians are going to have to do is truly recognise that Israel is not just a temporary State in the region. They're going to have to negotiate with that in mind.


  • #59
    Irishman80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭Irishman80


    Bowie wrote: »
    They'll still have N. Korea, China, Russia and the Trump administration.

    Interesting you lumped the Trump administration in with those. I'd have been more inclined to lump the Bush and Obama administrations in with those.

    Whatever else we criticise the Trump administration for, their foreign policy is miles ahead of those two war-monger administrations. No new wars, a tendency to pull troops out of the ME, a drive to get out of Afganistan, peace breaking out between Arab States and Israel.

    That's everything Obama promised us but failed to deliver on - a absolute stain on the Nobel Peace Prize.


  • #60
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Odhinn wrote: »
    A nonsense.

    In 1948, some Arabs left Israel voluntarily, some were forced to retreat as invading Arab armies retreated, some were forcibly expelled for fighting against Israel and some were forced to leave as they lived in hostile Arab villages that had to be destroyed by the Israeli army as part of war measures.

    20% of Arabs who lived in Israel before the Arab-Israeli War stayed in Israel and were given citizenship. There were Arabs elected to the first Knesset. Many Arab areas remained under martial law for the next 15-20 years due to tensions but ALL had full rights as Israeli citizens.

    This does not amount to an ethnic cleansing.


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  • #61
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Bowie wrote: »
    You whinge about people wanting to destroy Israel but won't even recognise the Palestinians.
    What about the family homes getting bulldozed in modern times?

    I don't recognise the Palestinians because there is no Palestinian state. There has never been one. The Arabs never established one.

    When Israel expanded its borders in the 1948 and 1967 wars, (both defensive wars in which no peace treaty was agreed) they were expanding into areas in which no state or nation existed.

    The arabs in those occupied zones have no legitimate claim to statehood in those areas. They've been offered a two state solution no less than five times and they've rejected it each time.

    As for bulldozing in modern times, Israel's demolition policy is intended as both a punitive measures against Arab terrorists and as a precautionary measures to keep their citizens safe. It is perfectly legitimate in the context of that conflict.


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