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Planning application submissions

  • 27-05-2020 8:16pm
    #1
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭


    Hi all , I'm hoping to get some advice please . We have put in for planning permission to build a house on a site we are hoping to buy. The site is only down the road from where we are currently renting .There is two houses beside the site and we have discovered today that the occupants of both (relations) houses have put in a " submission " in regards to our application. Does this mean an objection ? What valid reason would they need to be successful in their objections? Thanks .


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Comments

  • #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    megacorey07 wrote: »
    Hi all , I'm hoping to get some advice please . We have put in for planning permission to build a house on a site we are hoping to buy. The site is only down the road from where we are currently renting .There is two houses beside the site and we have discovered today that the occupants of both (relations) houses have put in a " submission " in regards to our application. Does this mean an objection ? What valid reason would they need to be successful in their objections? Thanks .

    Submission/observation/objection all the same thing.
    They could have any number of valid arguments from loss of daylight (BRE Daylight Test), drainage problems, over development, access etc


  • #3
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭megacorey07


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Submission/observation/objection all the same thing.
    They could have any number of valid arguments from loss of daylight (BRE Daylight Test), drainage problems, over development, access etc

    Thanks for your input . I cant see any of those issues you listed being a problem to be honest. There is already a division between the their houses and the land with very high tress anyway. I think it may be a case that they just don't want neighbours.


  • #4
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    That's it. Most objections to one off houses from the future neighbours are just because they basically just don't want anyone else in beside them. However, that would not be a very strong objection so they disguise it under the issues mentioned by Gumbo.


  • #5
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭megacorey07


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    That's it. Most objections to one off houses from the future neighbours are just because they basically just don't want anyone else in beside them. However, that would not be a very strong objection so they disguise it under the issues mentioned by Gumbo.

    I think you are absolutely right . Its frustrating though as we are not strangers to these people and have lived close to them for 5 years . We are decent respectable people and don't cause anyone any bother. Hopefully the planning will go through otherwise we will have wasted a lot of money and time 😔


  • #6
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    That's it. Unless they can show fairly convincingly that the proposal is inappropriate, ie it would not be consistent with county or local area plans, or that the planning application is somehow flawed or something missing, there would be a good enough chance you'll get consent.

    Usual thing that happens in this situation is that if you get your planning, build your house, great, and then if they ever lodge an application you object to it. Or if they build something without planning, rat them out to the council for unauthorised development.

    Neighbors disgruntled over planning permission issues can lead to decades of disputes and bad blood. Even intergenerational.
    My sister has a disgruntled neighbor who never wanted her house to get planning but it did. They have been in a constant tit for tat of complaints, counter complaints and counter counter complaints to eachother and various sections of the council for nearly 20 years over all sorts of relatively trivial issues that could usually be sorted out with a grown up mature conversation.
    They wouldn't even salute eachother on the road outside the houses. I don't know which one of them is worse tbh.


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  • #7
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,969 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    How did you "discover" they had put in objections? Did your agent tell you?

    First off, check your application on line to see if the objections are scanned and up the yet.

    If not, contact you local authority to see if the public counter is open and if you can see the hard copy file


  • #8
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    megacorey07 wrote: »
    Hi all , I'm hoping to get some advice please . We have put in for planning permission to build a house on a site we are hoping to buy. The site is only down the road from where we are currently renting .There is two houses beside the site and we have discovered today that the occupants of both (relations) houses have put in a " submission " in regards to our application. Does this mean an objection ? What valid reason would they need to be successful in their objections? Thanks .


    Can you put in a planning application on land that you do not own?

    An observation is not an objection. An observation is drawing the attention of the council to matters that the person may think are relevant to the planning on the site.

    If you are granted planning they can then make an objection to the grant with An Bord Pleanala.
    The only way they can be successful with an objection is that your plans for the house would breach planning rules or guidelines. If you plan is in accordance with rules and guidelines then you will be granted planning.
    I would not worry too much the only thing they can do is delay it by making an application to ANP, mostly when you get planning from the council
    the potential objectors realise that if there observations have not been enough to stop the grant of planning with the council then ABP are not going to change that grant.


  • #9
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭ec18


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    Can you put in a planning application on land that you do not own?

    yes provided you have evidence that you have a legal interest in purchasing the site.


  • #10
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    ec18 wrote: »
    yes provided you have evidence that you have a legal interest in purchasing the site.


    Have you had a pre-planning meeting with the council? Sorry thought I was replying to megacorey07.


  • #11
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭ec18


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    Have you had a pre-planning meeting with the council?

    in dublin anyway it's one of the criteria that you own are a prospective purchaser of the site for a pre planning meeting


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  • #12
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭megacorey07


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    How did you "discover" they had put in objections? Did your agent tell you?

    First off, check your application on line to see if the objections are scanned and up the yet.

    If not, contact you local authority to see if the public counter is open and if you can see the hard copy file
    A friend informed us that we can view it online so we saw the submissions but not details yet to what exactly they are about .


  • #13
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭megacorey07


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    Can you put in a planning application on land that you do not own?

    An observation is not an objection. An observation is drawing the attention of the council to matters that the person may think are relevant to the planning on the site.

    If you are granted planning they can then make an objection to the grant with An Bord Pleanala.
    The only way they can be successful with an objection is that your plans for the house would breach planning rules or guidelines. If you plan is in accordance with rules and guidelines then you will be granted planning.
    I would not worry too much the only thing they can do is delay it by making an application to ANP, mostly when you get planning from the council
    the potential objectors realise that if there observations have not been enough to stop the grant of planning with the council then ABP are not going to change that grant.
    We have agreed to buy the land subject to planning being granted so yes . We have had an architect do the site and house plans and will have all our own services so I'm really hoping there wont be an issue.


  • #14
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,969 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    megacorey07 wrote: »
    A friend informed us that we can view it online so we saw the submissions but not details yet to what exactly they are about .

    can i ask you what county this is in??

    i ask this because in any of the eplan systems ive seen , the only way of knowing there is a submission is by actually reading the submission.

    is the submission scanned and available for viewing?


  • #15
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭megacorey07


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    can i ask you what county this is in??

    i ask this because in any of the eplan systems ive seen , the only way of knowing there is a submission is by actually reading the submission.

    is the submission scanned and available for viewing?

    It's in carlow. We just looked it up online and at the bottom it had two submissions but we cant get any more info .we are still waiting on a planning application decision so I'm guessing that is why .


  • #16
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,216 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    megacorey07 wrote: »
    It's in carlow. We just looked it up online and at the bottom it had two submissions but we cant get any more info .we are still waiting on a planning application decision so I'm guessing that is why .

    If you click on the bottom where it says submissions, it just shows you a list of the submissions that were made. However, beside the Submissions button there should be 'View Scanned Files'. Click on it and a list of the documents relating to your application (all your drawings, application form etc) should pop up in a new window. Odds are the submissions were also scanned and should also be listed. You should be able to view them there.


  • #17
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    It may take additional time to upload files online with C19.
    If it was an online observation it’s straight forward but paper lodged it gets dealt with after a few days to avoid cross contamination etc

    In DCC the files get scanned after a few days.


  • #18
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭megacorey07


    Penn wrote: »
    If you click on the bottom where it says submissions, it just shows you a list of the submissions that were made. However, beside the Submissions button there should be 'View Scanned Files'. Click on it and a list of the documents relating to your application (all your drawings, application form etc) should pop up in a new window. Odds are the submissions were also scanned and should also be listed. You should be able to view them there.

    Thanks I'll try that


  • #19
    johnnyfruitcake
    Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭johnnyfruitcake


    2 questions:

    No submissions have been uploaded or submitted that I can see and it also says this on the application,
    "Please note: This application is outside the statutory period for acceptance of submissions"
    Does this mean no objections can be sent in?

    Also how long must site notices remain in place?


  • #20
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    johnnyfruitcake wrote: »
    2 questions:

    No submissions have been uploaded or submitted that I can see and it also says this on the application,
    "Please note: This application is outside the statutory period for acceptance of submissions"
    Does this mean no objections can be sent in?

    Also how long must site notices remain in place?


    Submission need to be received by a certain date after the application for planning has been submitted. It will be on the CC web site somewhere. I had a site notice up in Dublin , I think it was 5 weeks.



    Submissions are different to objections. Objections go to ABP after planning has been granted or refused. In some cases I think you need to make a submission if you in the future plan to make an objection. If your land borders the property this may not be the case.


  • #21
    megacorey07
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭megacorey07


    Penn wrote: »
    If you click on the bottom where it says submissions, it just shows you a list of the submissions that were made. However, beside the Submissions button there should be 'View Scanned Files'. Click on it and a list of the documents relating to your application (all your drawings, application form etc) should pop up in a new window. Odds are the submissions were also scanned and should also be listed. You should be able to view them there.

    Tried this and it doesn't show the actual submissions or what exactly they entail, just the names of the people who made them . The decision is due today so hopefully we will get some news soon .


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  • #22
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,216 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    Submission need to be revived by a certain date after the application for planning has been submitted. It will be on the CC web site somewhere. I had a site notice up in Dublin , I think it was 5 weeks.



    Submissions are different to objections. Objections go to ABP after planning has been granted or refused. In some cases I think you need to make a submission if you in the future plan to make an objection. If your land borders the property this may not be the case.

    The dates for submissions are a bit up in the air due to the virus, extra time allowed for making submissions/observations, and most council's planning sites will have the dates for the 5 weeks automated by when the application is first received. So best bet is to ring the Council to check if still possible to make submissions.


  • #23
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,216 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    megacorey07 wrote: »
    Tried this and it doesn't show the actual submissions or what exactly they entail, just the names of the people who made them . The decision is due today so hopefully we will get some news soon .

    Just as per my above post, even if the site says your decision is due today, it might not be due to the extension of time as a result of the virus. You'd be better at this stage calling the Council and checking.


  • #24
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    Submission need to be revived by a certain date after the application for planning has been submitted. It will be on the CC web site somewhere. I had a site notice up in Dublin , I think it was 5 weeks.



    Submissions are different to objections. Objections go to ABP after planning has been granted or refused. In some cases I think you need to make a submission if you in the future plan to make an objection. If your land borders the property this may not be the case.

    Your getting mixed up between a planning application observation/submission/objection and an An Board Pleanála appeal.

    All submissions/observations/objections (same thing different wording) go to the local authority during the public notice period of the planning application. Usually 5 weeks from the date of lodgement but I’d lodged during C19 then altered dates are in play.

    For example, My partner has 2 applications lodged from the 12th March and the final date for objections is 10th June.


  • #25
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Your getting mixed up between a planning application observation/submission/objection and an An Board Pleanála appeal.

    All submissions/observations/objections (same thing different wording) go to the local authority during the public notice period of the planning application. Usually 5 weeks from the date of lodgement but I’d lodged during C19 then altered dates are in play.

    For example, My partner has 2 applications lodged from the 12th March and the final date for objections is 10th June.


    A submission/observation goes to the local planning authority and objection goes to ABP. The objection to ABP is the objection to the granting or not of planning by the local authority.


  • #26
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,216 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Gumbo is mostly right. There is no "objection", there is only submission/observation to the Council during the planning application (an objection is a submission/observation, but not all submissons/observations are objections), and then appeal to ABP after the Council have made their decision (because you're appealing the Council's decision, and are therefore appealing to a higher authority to review the decision or conditions attached to the decision).


  • #27
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    If someone is wanting to object to the grant permission, is it necessary for them to have previously made an observation on the application? Or can you just object out of the blue after a grant of permission has been made?

    If an objection shows that some technical part of the process was incorrect or some necessary element of the application was missing, can that invalidate the permission?

    I am thinking, lets say you examine and application, and spot that an AA screening is actually needed and not included, or something else, like a map is not to the correct scale required by the planning regs, or something else, and that is not picked up on by the council and they grant permission - can you just wait and sit on it until the grant is made and then come along afterwards and object to ABP and have it all invalidated, forcing the applicant to go back to square one and do the whole thing all over again with all the time and cost that entails? (noting it in ab observation would allow them to give it as further information without upsetting timescales too much)

    If so, it is a good tactic to delay and frustrate an applicant who you don't want beside you.


  • #28
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    If someone is wanting to object to the grant permission, is it necessary for them to have previously made an observation on the application? Or can you just object out of the blue after a grant of permission has been made?

    If an objection shows that some technical part of the process was incorrect or some necessary element of the application was missing, can that invalidate the permission?

    I am thinking, lets say you examine and application, and spot that an AA screening is actually needed and not included, or something else, like a map is not to the correct scale required by the planning regs, or something else, and that is not picked up on by the council and they grant permission - can you just wait and sit on it until the grant is made and then come along afterwards and object to ABP and have it all invalidated, forcing the applicant to go back to square one and do the whole thing all over again with all the time and cost that entails? (noting it in ab observation would allow them to give it as further information without upsetting timescales too much)

    If so, it is a good tactic to delay and frustrate an applicant who you don't want beside you.


    From ABP site.
    Who can appeal?

    You can make an appeal if either of the two descriptions below apply to you:

    1. You made an application to the planning authority for a proposed development. You are making a first party appeal. A first party can appeal:
    • the planning authority's decision to refuse permission;
    • any conditions the planning authority attaches to a grant of permission decision;
    • how a planning authority applies the terms of a Development Contribution Scheme or a Supplementary Development Contribution Scheme to conditions in a grant of permission. You can also appeal how the planning authority has applied a special contribution condition. These are Section 48 or Section 49 appeals.
    2. You made a submission to the planning authority on a proposed development. You are making a third party appeal. A third party can appeal:
    • the decision of the planning authority;
    • any conditions the planning authority attaches to a grant of permission decision.
    If you think that neither of the two descriptions above apply to you, there are certain other limited situations when you can make an appeal. You can find further details about these situations and who can make appeals in the factsheet "What can I appeal?" or by contacting us. You may also be able to take part by making an observation on a valid


  • #29
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,216 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    From ABP site.
    Who can appeal?

    You can make an appeal if either of the two descriptions below apply to you:

    1. You made an application to the planning authority for a proposed development. You are making a first party appeal. A first party can appeal:
    • the planning authority's decision to refuse permission;
    • any conditions the planning authority attaches to a grant of permission decision;
    • how a planning authority applies the terms of a Development Contribution Scheme or a Supplementary Development Contribution Scheme to conditions in a grant of permission. You can also appeal how the planning authority has applied a special contribution condition. These are Section 48 or Section 49 appeals.
    2. You made a submission to the planning authority on a proposed development. You are making a third party appeal. A third party can appeal:
    • the decision of the planning authority;
    • any conditions the planning authority attaches to a grant of permission decision.
    If you think that neither of the two descriptions above apply to you, there are certain other limited situations when you can make an appeal. You can find further details about these situations and who can make appeals in the factsheet "What can I appeal?" or by contacting us. You may also be able to take part by making an observation on a valid

    As noted in the "What can I appeal" section:
    An owner, occupier or somebody who has an interest in land which borders the site of a planning application. In this situation you can apply to An Bord Pleanála for permission to make an appeal in a process called 'leave to appeal'. In your leave to appeal application, the Board decides if there are extenuating circumstances as to why you did not make a submission or observation to the planning authority and may grant or refuse you permission to make an appeal. Information on making a leave to appeal application is available from An Bord Pleanála.

    So even if you didn't make a submission, you could apply to ABP to appeal the decision if you're an adjoining landowner, but you have to have good reason and they may not decide that you do (eg. if you're trying to say their elevations are at a scale of 1:250 instead of the minimum 1:200, which can happen sometimes if the building is large enough and won't fit on one page and no detail is lost by doing so).

    So no TheBoyConor, you can't just frustrate someone's appeal without good reason. You would have to make a valid submission (note that the Council can refuse submissions if there isn't a valid reason), then appeal to ABP, and after that ABP's decision is final.


  • #30
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    OK thank you. Now humour me on this next bit.....

    Lets say you make an observation - Does any appeal you make have to be based on the content or issues highlighted in your original observation, or could it be based on something else entirely?

    Lets say you identify some flaw in the process or some requirement that is not satisfied, AA screening or whatever. Could you cop this but not refer to it in your observation but instead, make an observation on some other unrelated thing, then if the planning authority go on to grant the permission , you have your right to appeal because you made an observation, and you go ahead and appeal, but this time you wheel out the flaw you indentified in the process but didn't mention in the initial observation? Let say in your appeal that you can show that an AA or screening was required but was never included and that therefore the correct processes were not observed. Or perhaps that the press notice went up a day too late or the site notice had some sort of mistake or omission on it.

    Could a strategy like that, making a trivial observation just to give yourself the right to appeal to ABP so you can deliver a delayed coup de grace at that stage, scupper a planning application and force an applicant to go back to step 1 and redo everything all over again?


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  • #31
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,216 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    OK thank you. Now humour me on this next bit.....

    Lets say you make an observation - Does any appeal you make have to be based on the content or issues highlighted in your original observation, or could it be based on something else entirely?

    Lets say you identify some flaw in the process or some requirement that is not satisfied, AA screening or whatever. Could you cop this but not refer to it in your observation but instead, make an observation on some other unrelated thing, then if the planning authority go on to grant the permission , you have your right to appeal because you made an observation, and you go ahead and appeal, but this time you wheel out the flaw you indentified in the process but didn't mention in the initial observation? Let say in your appeal that you can show that an AA or screening was required but was never included and that therefore the correct processes were not observed. Or perhaps that the press notice went up a day too late or the site notice had some sort of mistake or omission on it.

    Could a strategy like that, making a trivial observation just to give yourself the right to appeal to ABP so you can deliver a delayed coup de grace at that stage, scupper a planning application and force an applicant to go back to step 1 and redo everything all over again?

    That would depend on whether or not an AA or other such report was actually required or not, in which case it would have been picked up on by the Council, who would have either invalidated the application for that reason, or it'd go to a request for further information and they'd have to submit one then.

    If they didn't need one and you appealed to ABP saying they do, ABP could very well consider it an invalid reason to appeal.
    "27. Can the Board dismiss appeals?
    Yes. The Board has discretion to dismiss an appeal where it is satisfied the appeal is vexatious, frivolous or without substance or foundation or where the appeal is made with the sole intention of delaying development or of securing the payment of money, gifts, considerations or other inducement by any persons. The Board can also declare a planning application or an appeal withdrawn where it is satisfied it has been abandoned."

    The Council have numerous checklists, checks by different departments etc who would pick up on such things. Items such as saying a site notice wasn't put up on the day it states it was doesn't matter so long as it was still up when the council do their random check to see if it's up. Otherwise you can't prove it wasn't, and appealing a decision based on something like that would be seen as frivolous as it wouldn't affect the actual decision anyway. Similar with scales on a drawing, sometimes you can go outside the minimums if you have a reason, state the reason, and the council find that reason acceptable. Appealing for something like that also wouldn't get you far.


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