The Soulsborne combat debate

Taltos · 18-05-2020 6:58am

Love them all.
From Demon’s Souls which I brought in as an import from Canada at the time all the way to Bloodborne, which was different enough it jarred me at first but I got to enjoy it too.

Only recently went back to Demons Souls again and with the servers offline its a very different experience - I miss the hints, and oddly I miss the invasions that the first time around really bugged me, to the point where at times I disconnected my PS from the network just to try to get some gaming in without someone charging in at the worst possible moment.

The mechanics with the shield. Nope - Will never ever master that in any of the games, I just am forced to learn different ways to survive, might die a bit more as a result but makes it no less fun, just more challenging.

Did find huge support in this forum when I was stuck in some of the other games, and between the tips here and getting others to help me as I helped others made progress through some bosses really achievable.

Doctor Nick · 18-05-2020 9:04am

If I can beat the Souls games anybody can. I'm probably one of the most unskilled players there is and I adore the Soulsborne games. That feeling of satisfaction at defeating a boss that's kicked your arse for so long cannot be beat.

Case in point, I started a new game of Bloodborne a fortnight ago. I'd beaten it before but Laurence the First Vicar was impossible for me at that time and I ended up summoning another player to beat him. So on this play through I vowed to beat him solo. Initially was still getting my arse kicked. Thought about different tactics I could use so decided to play without locking on and dodge rolling instead of quick step. It worked, I actually beat him. My heart was pounding with the adrenaline and my chest must have swelled up with that sense of pride when it finished. Not to mention the roar I let out. No other games give me that feeling.

First time I played Bloodborne it took me 80-100 hours to beat without the DLC. This playthrough took 40 hours, all bosses solo, DLC and some chalice dungeons. Its great to see yourself improve as a player.

From Software is my favourite developer at the moment. No other developers can build worlds like they do. I do understand people who can't get into them. I was the same the first time I played Bloodborne. Couldn't get past first area and traded it. But I kept thinking about the atmosphere in the game so bought it again. I'm so happy I persevered as it introduced me to my favourite ever series of games.

Retr0gamer · 18-05-2020 9:26am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

But i think it’s straight-up embarrassing when I see the phrase ‘git gud’.

I think the vast majority of people use git gud sarcastically, I know I do. I definitely don't use it as an insult. I have used it jokingly before and people have lost their **** but that's more a reflection of their personality type as it was quite obviously a joke.

Greyfox wrote: »

Objectively there hasn't been a decrease in quality, I think its more a case of you getting a little jaded with many AAA games.

I'm not Jaded with triple A games, just a lot of them are objectively poor games. There is far too much leniency given to games that replace actual focused design with Skinner box mechanics. It's low hanging fruit for game developers, these games aren't fun at all and even the people that say they are enjoying them aren't, it's more just satisfying a primal instinct, the same one that hooks gamblers. I actually think it's very dangerous to make games that play to what can essentially develop into a personality disorder or addiction.

It's another reason why I love the Souls games. It doesn't rely on skinner box mechanics to keep it compelling. It relies on the lost art of good design. Every thing in the game, the levels, the enemies, the bosses, the combat mechanics has been hand crafted to be as good as it can be. Sure there are sections in every game where the budget was stretched and the design isn't as tight but for the vast majority of each game it's a carefully and masterfully crafted videogame. The kind of games you'd get from the 8-bit generation on wards that we started to lose last generation.

petes · 18-05-2020 9:28am

For me it was the exploration of the worlds they are set in. I couldn't wait to see what's in the next area.

First time I beat DS3 was solo as had no internet. It was a challenge but I kept fighting that boss to get by and see the next area.
Finished it again last week, did have some help with a couple of the bosses, some of them I probably didn't need the help but seen the summon signs and just did it.
Favorite boss to beat was The Watchers of Farron for some reason although I do like the dancer fight.

Playing through the DLC at the minute.

Sekiro was the same, just couldn't wait to see the next area.

That being said they pissed me off no end. Still die in the most stupid of places. Rolling off a cliff was my favorite and not an enemy in sight :pac:

TitianGerm · 18-05-2020 9:40am

Doctor Nick wrote: »

If I can beat the Souls games anybody can. I'm probably one of the most unskilled players there is and I adore the Soulsborne games. That feeling of satisfaction at defeating a boss that's kicked your arse for so long cannot be beat.

Case in point, I started a new game of Bloodborne a fortnight ago. I'd beaten it before but Lawrence the First Vicar was impossible for me at that time and I ended up summoning another player to beat him. So on this play through I vowed to beat him solo. Initially was still getting my arse kicked. Thought about different tactics I could use so decided to play without locking on and dodge rolling instead of quick step. It worked, I actually beat him. My heart was pounding with the adrenaline and my chest must have swelled up with that sense of pride when it finished. Not to mention the roar I let out. No other games give me that feeling.

First time I played Bloodborne it took me 80-100 hours to beat without the DLC. This playthrough took 40 hours, all bosses solo, DLC and some chalice dungeons. Its great to see yourself improve as a player.

From Software is my favourite developer at the moment. No other developers can build worlds like they do. I do understand people who can't get into them. I was the same the first time I played Bloodborne. Couldn't get past first area and traded it. But I kept thinking about the atmosphere in the game so bought it again. I'm so happy I persevered as it introduced me to my favourite ever series of games.

I definitely get more satisfaction beating tough areas or bosses in BB/Souls/Sekiro than any other game. In BOTW the bosses were easy enough, same with Odyssey. Haven't completed Borderlands 3 but the same story.

The only other two games that I've felt similar satisfaction was in Cuphead or Hollow Knight.

I think boss fights in a lot of games are very easy now.

On another note there were people saying that Days Gone is worth playing, that it really comes into its own after 20-30 hours. It was probably one of the games I was most looking forward to getting my hands on but if you're willing to put that time into that game then putting half or a quarter of that time into dark souls to learn the combat will give you access to a far better game/series.

petes · 18-05-2020 10:14am

TitianGerm wrote: »

On another note there were people saying that Days Gone is worth playing, that it really comes into its own after 20-30 hours. It was probably one of the games I was most looking forward to getting my hands on but if you're willing to put that time into that game then putting half or a quarter of that time into dark souls to learn the combat will give you access to a far better game/series.

Finished Days Gone, I enjoyed it all the way through but it does get better later on, has it's critics but enjoyable none the less.

Having been a massive fan of Metroid on the Snes I tried to get in to Hollow Knight and Salt and Sanctuary but not sure they are for me.

On the other end I do enjoy the triple A games on the PS4, a lot of hand holding in some of them but decent stories.

I usually go back to something that offers more of a challenge.

On topic, the combat in Sekiro is fantastic. Yes it takes time to learn even for Soulsbourne players but there is a definite reward.

Penn · 18-05-2020 10:15am

Bought Sekiro last night. Full price too, so if I don't like it I'm blaming all of you and I hope you feel bad.

Played a bit. Seems alright. Got killed maybe twice by I guess the second boss (not counting the one you're not supposed to beat) in front of a gate after getting the first arm upgrade before I had to give up for the night anyway.

Doctor Nick · 18-05-2020 10:19am

Penn wrote: »

Bought Sekiro last night. Full price too, so if I don't like it I'm blaming all of you and I hope you feel bad.

Played a bit. Seems alright. Got killed maybe twice by I guess the second boss (not counting the one you're not supposed to beat) in front of a gate after getting the first arm upgrade before I had to give up for the night anyway.

Sekiro is fantastic. Probably my favourite of the From games. It is, in my opinion, the most punishing of their games. I hope you enjoy it.

Hollow Knight is excellent though I did not like Salt and Sanctuary. I was terrible at Cuphead.

TitianGerm · 18-05-2020 10:25am

Penn wrote: »

Bought Sekiro last night. Full price too, so if I don't like it I'm blaming all of you and I hope you feel bad.

Played a bit. Seems alright. Got killed maybe twice by I guess the second boss (not counting the one you're not supposed to beat) in front of a gate after getting the first arm upgrade before I had to give up for the night anyway.

They're only mini bosses.

Retr0gamer · 18-05-2020 11:18am

Penn wrote: »

Bought Sekiro last night. Full price too, so if I don't like it I'm blaming all of you and I hope you feel bad.

Played a bit. Seems alright. Got killed maybe twice by I guess the second boss (not counting the one you're not supposed to beat) in front of a gate after getting the first arm upgrade before I had to give up for the night anyway.

Just remember, it's not about damage, it's about stamina. You'll be doing bugger all damage initially but once their stamina goes down they will be hemorrhaging health. I'd advise on picking up Mikiri counter as an essential upgrade as well as it makes spear enemies a whole lot more manageable.

johnny_ultimate · 18-05-2020 11:27am

While Bloodborne is my favourite Soulsborne overall for a plethora of reasons, Sekiro truly was masterful in the way it combined the formula with such a fast-paced, dynamic fighting style. It feels as good (heck, far better) to play as any 3D action title, but without losing that From Software challenge. Playing the considerably less appealing Fallen Order highlighted just how right From got it: fast, brutal, demanding combat that just happens to boast the perfect video game parry.

Doctor Nick · 18-05-2020 11:31am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Just remember, it's not about damage, it's about stamina. You'll be doing bugger all damage initially but once their stamina goes down they will be hemorrhaging health. I'd advise on picking up Mikiri counter as an essential upgrade as well as it makes spear enemies a whole lot more manageable.

Not always. Some enemies recover Posture too quickly therefore it is essential to reduce their health. The lower the health the slower the Posture regen.

Retr0gamer · 18-05-2020 11:59am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

fast, brutal, demanding combat that just happens to boast the perfect video game parry.

Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike just called to say.... fair enough.

Stone Deaf 4evr · 18-05-2020 12:33pm

The biggest enemy you'll face in soulsborne games ( I cant speak to sekiro as I haven't played it) is patience. You'll be punished for being greedy and taking one last swipe at a boss or enemy. You wont know the story if you haven't taken time to read things like item descriptions, you'll make areas more difficult also (rusty iron ring or the music box for example) by missing the importance of equipping certain items.

And the funny thing is, being leveled up a long way only helps so much, if you're not patient, you're still gonna get stomped.

Id be very slow to use the phrase 'masterpieces', but they're certainly as close as most games get.

Potential-Monke · 18-05-2020 8:12pm

The point stands, these games are perfect in your own eyes. Yes, that view is shared with millions of people, just like millions of people don't agree. It's the looking down on others, the constant bashing of games that are not of that type, Retr0 above says that people who enjoy other games mentioned are actually not enjoying it, but are only ticking boxes in a habit feeding game. Sorry like, but that's a very big jump to be making, and is just as bad as someone legitimately saying 'git gud' (not in the ironic way). Not having a go directly at you Retr0, but it's an example of the mentality of the fans of the Souls games, that anyone who doesn't like these games are inferior, sheeple who can't think for themselves, who need to be hand held and fed with dopamine inducing but "shallow" effects/rewards.

Why can ye not acceot that those games are not for everyone, and it's not because they're not proper gamers, or are inferior to ye in some way? That's the issue, not the difficulty of the games, not the learning time or patience required, it's the elitist attitude towards non-followers. Don't get me wrong, i'm not sat here in my underwear 15st overweight getting genuinely emotionally affected by it, just don't like elitist attitudes in general, and gamers can add that toxicity to it. It does no one any good.

_CreeD_ · 18-05-2020 8:19pm

I played and finished Dark Souls 1 , thought it had an original and interesting world that was barely fleshed out. I went i'd say about 2/3 through no 2 (including the same on it's DLCs as I swapped between zones) and then quit, I was just bored. We all have different tastes so I won't argue with anyone who loves them but one thing I do take issue with is the majority seeming to think that if someone doesn't like them it's because of the difficulty. To be fair the base difficulty is higher than the average RPG but I don't think it requires anywhere near the skill it's often made out to. It's more about repetition, learning and countering attack patterns in a game of patient rock-paper-scissors with extreme punishment for failing thrown in so the tension somewhat counters that repetitiveness. For me it just wasn't worth it, the same enemies in the same spots with essentially the same moves. Some people love that, learning the perfect responses so they can do zero hit takedowns and so on, which is fine but again it's not super-human skill, it's patience and inevitable muscle memory (IMHO).

Retr0gamer · 18-05-2020 9:26pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

The point stands, these games are perfect in your own eyes. Yes, that view is shared with millions of people, just like millions of people don't agree. It's the looking down on others, the constant bashing of games that are not of that type, Retr0 above says that people who enjoy other games mentioned are actually not enjoying it, but are only ticking boxes in a habit feeding game. Sorry like, but that's a very big jump to be making, and is just as bad as someone legitimately saying 'git gud' (not in the ironic way). Not having a go directly at you Retr0, but it's an example of the mentality of the fans of the Souls games, that anyone who doesn't like these games are inferior, sheeple who can't think for themselves, who need to be hand held and fed with dopamine inducing but "shallow" effects/rewards.

Why can ye not acceot that those games are not for everyone, and it's not because they're not proper gamers, or are inferior to ye in some way? That's the issue, not the difficulty of the games, not the learning time or patience required, it's the elitist attitude towards non-followers. Don't get me wrong, i'm not sat here in my underwear 15st overweight getting genuinely emotionally affected by it, just don't like elitist attitudes in general, and gamers can add that toxicity to it. It does no one any good.

I'm not saying it's every game or every game you like but I can point to finger at a lot of shlooters, mobile games and a few triple A games that well outstay their run time.

Penn · 19-05-2020 8:51am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Just remember, it's not about damage, it's about stamina. You'll be doing bugger all damage initially but once their stamina goes down they will be hemorrhaging health. I'd advise on picking up Mikiri counter as an essential upgrade as well as it makes spear enemies a whole lot more manageable.

Good shout. Although I bought the skill, got killed by the spear mini-boss in the something estate, then it brought me back to the Temple and it then said the skill was now unlocked. Took him down on second fight though.

Anyway, mostly grinding the early areas by not travelling via idol and instead taking out the enemies between the temple and the old woman with the bell. Doesn't take too long once you know their patterns and positions. Had to go back and forth a bit due to dragonrot thing.

Enjoying the game, but far more for the stealth side than the combat. The combat is okay, but can still be frustrating. The stealth though, as many others have said, give me serious Tenchu vibes, and I f*cking loved Tenchu 2.

Retr0gamer · 19-05-2020 8:55am

It gets tougher. The first bosses can be a roadblock but stick with it.

Arcadeheroes · 19-05-2020 9:04am

Penn wrote: »

Good shout. Although I bought the skill, got killed by the spear mini-boss in the something estate, then it brought me back to the Temple and it then said the skill was now unlocked. Took him down on second fight though.

Anyway, mostly grinding the early areas by not travelling via idol and instead taking out the enemies between the temple and the old woman with the bell. Doesn't take too long once you know their patterns and positions. Had to go back and forth a bit due to dragonrot thing.

Enjoying the game, but far more for the stealth side than the combat. The combat is okay, but can still be frustrating. The stealth though, as many others have said, give me serious Tenchu vibes, and I f*cking loved Tenchu 2.

Sekiro was originally suppose to be a new Tenchu game but they added too much new things into the game during the development so they ended up calling it Sekiro instead

Penn · 19-05-2020 9:17am

Arcadeheroes wrote: »

Sekiro was originally suppose to be a new Tenchu game but they added too much new things into the game during the development so they ended up calling it Sekiro instead

Oh cool. If I'd known that I might have picked it up earlier

Penn · 19-05-2020 12:06pm

One thing I'd say based on my experience so far though, I know Jedi Fallen Order is seen as Soulsborne-lite, but to me I'm glad I've played it as a stepping stone to Sekiro. It's gotten me used to the idea of the Idols/Meditation points refilling your health but respawning enemies (so weighing up whether or not to rest), and a fairly similar combat style (minus stealth, force powers etc).

Chris_Heilong · 19-05-2020 12:46pm

The games are all about how much time you put in to learn them, some people hate the should games until they realise they can be social games and are much easier with friends helping out. I finished all 3 Should games by myself but found enjoyment going back to them with friends years later, There are loads of games that if I dont click with it in the first hour then I will abandon them even if I know they are probably great games unless I see some potential, but I know my time is limited and there is so many more games out there to play.

Penn · 19-05-2020 5:21pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The games are all about how much time you put in to learn them, some people hate the should games until they realise they can be social games and are much easier with friends helping out. I finished all 3 Should games by myself but found enjoyment going back to them with friends years later, There are loads of games that if I dont click with it in the first hour then I will abandon them even if I know they are probably great games unless I see some potential, but I know my time is limited and there is so many more games out there to play.

The notes from other players in Bloodborne annoyed the hell out of me though, especially because for the first while, I didn't know they were from other players. And even then I didn't understand why they were so poorly written and ambiguous until I learned they weren't typed and you could only select certain words or something.

So bar a few which were a little helpful, most of them just annoyed me. I think I did summon help one time but I died in the fight anyway and just felt like a waste of the other player's time.

Mr Crispy · 19-05-2020 7:47pm

This entire thread has just made me hungry for Elden Ring news. From sent out a tweet yesterday, giving me hope, but it was just about total sales figures for the Souls trilogy.

Goddammit. :mad:

https://twitter.com/fromsoftware_pr/status/1262628410079080453?s=20

gimli2112 · 20-05-2020 8:29am

Personally I loved Bloodborne but couldn't get into Demon Souls or Dark Souls 3. That's not to say they're bad games but for whatever reason BB just hooked me and I ended up platinuming it.
I know people have criticisms of BB but when they speak to me about them all I hear is white noise.

Retr0gamer · 20-05-2020 8:57am

The only criticism I have of BB is the frame rate is criminal and as a result the multiplayer is broken. Would love to see it on PC or a remaster on a next gen console.

gimli2112 · 20-05-2020 9:27am

I would pay a lot of money for a remaster. A fool and his money...…..

TitianGerm · 20-05-2020 9:36am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The only criticism I have of BB is the frame rate is criminal and as a result the multiplayer is broken. Would love to see it on PC or a remaster on a next gen console.

It's not the frame rate it's the frame pacing. Digital Foundry had a new video up the other day on someone fixing the pacing and bumping it to 60fps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hDIvDPRcPA

Rob2D · 20-05-2020 10:34am

Mr Crispy wrote: »

This entire thread has just made me hungry for Elden Ring news.

Well there was a lot of info recently from a leak. Do we have an Elden Ring thread?

The Soulsborne combat debate

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