Swimming related questions .

new2tri19 · 15-01-2020 6:45pm #1

I've started to breath every 4 breaths more often now , I alternate between 4 breaths and 2 kinda like 4,4,2,2 pattern. I've done a few lengths breathing every 6 strokes but found it too hard , I felt like I was holding my breath underwater as I had excelled it too quickly , trying to trickle it slowly is something I have to work on.

My question is what patterns are common is it common to mix up 2 and 4 stroke breathing ? I understand every 3 is ideal and I'm doing drills to perfect my bilateral breathing but also interested to know any tips for breathing every 4 or 6 more relaxed ? I exhale through my nose but sbould your mouth be fully closed at same time ?

Thanks

Kurt_Godel. · 15-01-2020 7:44pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

I've started to breath every 4 breaths more often now , I alternate between 4 breaths and 2 kinda like 4,4,2,2 pattern. I've done a few lengths breathing every 6 strokes but found it too hard , I felt like I was holding my breath underwater as I had excelled it too quickly , trying to trickle it slowly is something I have to work on.

My question is what patterns are common is it common to mix up 2 and 4 stroke breathing ? I understand every 3 is ideal and I'm doing drills to perfect my bilateral breathing but also interested to know any tips for breathing every 4 or 6 more relaxed ? I exhale through my nose but sbould your mouth be fully closed at same time ?

Thanks

Great idea for a thread.

Breathe Every 3 is good if you are swimming distance in a pool, but BE2 and/or 4 are fine for OW. The real benefit of bilateral breathing (both sides) for OW is it allows you choose to breathe on the side the waves aren't coming from. In practice if you are swimming at a racing pace you'll be BE2 most likely. The most important thing is to get sufficient oxygen (too much is as bad as too little) so BE2/3/4 are fine if you are getting enough.

You should never hold your breath when swimming, so as soon as your mouth turns into the water start exhaling slowly through your mouth. Make a motorbike sound through your mouth as you read this- that's what your underwater exhale should be like. You should have exhaled almost completely as you turn up for more air- and you only need to take on enough fresh air for the next cycle, so no need for a huge gasp to fill the lungs.

None of the above is gospel, and there are many different methods and strategies, but these are good starting pointers. The most important thing is to keep your breathing under control at all times, as too much or too little air will quickly impact your stroke and position. Slow down if needs be until you are relaxed in your breathing. Good breathing is fundamental to good swimming.

new2tri19 · 15-01-2020 8:38pm

Kurt_Godel. wrote: »

Great idea for a thread.

You should never hold your breath when swimming, so as soon as your mouth turns into the water start exhaling slowly through your mouth. Make a motorbike sound through your mouth as you read this- that's what your underwater exhale should be like. You should have exhaled almost completely as you turn up for more air- and you only need to take on enough fresh air for the next cycle, so no need for a huge gasp to fill the lungs.

Thanks Kurt , I have started to swim 5000m sets and I just got a bit fed up with the BE2 (seems like a hell of a lot of head turning) .

I have never even considered too much oxygen as a problem , that's something I'll need to think about. As a novice self- taught swimmer one the things I learned from YouTube was to breathe in through the mouth and out through the nose. So when my face is in the water my mouth is always closed and I exhale from the nose.

The sensation of holding my breath is not that I'm holding my breath more so that I've exhaled fully too early so am forced to do the last couple of strokes of a BE4 without been able to exhale.

There should easily be enough oxygen to exhale , I imagine I just need to train this aspect , I did 5*50m breathing every 6 and then switched back to breathing every 4 and it felt so much easier. I ended the set with 1000m straight doing a kinda hybrid version of 4,4,2,2,4,4,2,2 rhythm and it felt very enjoyable except when I let the mind slip and didn't fully prepare for the 4 which resulted in a gasp for breath.

Lots of work needed from me this year .

Kurt_Godel. · 15-01-2020 8:59pm

In a perfect world we would BE1000, and get the massive streamline benefits from this. Pool sprinters doing 25m don't take any breaths, 50m sprinters might only take a few breaths. So if you can do distance BE6 in comfort, by all means do so and take the hydrodynamic benefits... but BE2/3/4 will probably be more comfortable, so maybe start off with that.

Ditto with nose exhaling, if it works, it works. I only mentioned exhaling through the mouth that motorcycle "bubbles" way as its a useful method for controlling your exhale. You should finish your exhale just before you come up for air again- aim is to never hold your breath at any time.

(By the way I'm just in from a swim and noticed I exhale through my nose mostly, also doing a mix of BE2/4... whatever way feels natural is the way to go. Took me a few years to get breathing under control!)

TopOfTheHill · 16-01-2020 11:03am

FWIW

I was taught when younger to breather every 4, and this is what I am comfortable with. So swimming at any pace other than race pace I go with 4. When I am under pressure in a race it moves to every 2 - even in OW.

Started to learn to breathe to the weak side once I started tri, and still find it a struggle, but it is in the bag if it is ever needed. My form drops completely when breathing to my weak side.

A practice drill I use to help with this is swimming one arm lengths, which forces me to breathe to only one side for the entire length.

...

In through the mouth, and out through the nose for me.

woody1 · 16-01-2020 2:29pm

when i started learning i really concentrated on breathing both sides, and so for years have gone with breathing every 3 strokes, but can do 2/3/4/5 and when im doing long sets i tend to mix it up and do a few lengths of each just to alleviate boredom as much as anything, but as im a nervy open water swimmer being able to breathe whichever side i want is really important. although every 2 strokes tends to give me a kind of hyperventilate / panicky feeling so its only for short bursts in the pool

swam on tuesday and fell into a pattern of every 4 ( for years ive been every 3 ) and found it to be a nice bit faster .. so will stick with it for a few more swims and test it out ..

we used to do drills of swimming 25m with as few breaths as possible, really makes you concentrate on stroke efficiency too

oh breathe in and out the mouth, chlorine and salt water really irritate my nose ,

new2tri19 · 16-01-2020 3:15pm

woody1 wrote: »

swam on tuesday and fell into a pattern of every 4 ( for years ive been every 3 ) and found it to be a nice bit faster .. so will stick with it for a few more swims and test it out ..

This is similar to my experience , changing to every 4 has me about 2-3 seconds faster per 100m and the effort doesn't feel any harder if anything it feels easier , it's just the concentration that I have to keep because its a bit of a habit now to turn on 2 so have to remember to wait.

woody1 · 17-01-2020 12:52pm

different question.. does anyone else have a problem with swim fins cutting / rubbing skin off their toes.. im on my third different set now, so it cant just be the actual fins, any recomendations for better types , or solutions to the problem

ive seen it mentioned somewhere to wear swim socks with them, that might be worth a try but thought it was worth asking here

Kurt_Godel. · 19-01-2020 8:10pm

Vaseline any pinch points with fins. Just don't touch the inside of your goggles after!

I was thinking more about the breathing question... reread an article from a few years back by Gary Hall Snr.

For most triathletes, breathing presents a few problems. It is not just that they take too long for the breath—that long star-gazing breath that slows the stroke rate and body’s speed down—it is also that they don’t breathe often enough. Many triathletes are taught to breathe to both sides, which usually gets translated into a 1:3 breathing pattern; one breath for three strokes. With a stroke rate of 60 (not unusual for a triathlete), that is a respiratory rate of 20 breaths per minute. On the bike or while running, one breathes 50–60 times a minute…so why do we want to swim hypoxically? Virtually all world-class freestylers breathe every cycle (1:2 pattern) and most of them are swimming at a stroke rate near 90, so they are getting 45 breaths per minute. The world record holder, Sun Yang, from China also throws in three consecutive breaths (three breaths in a row to both sides) in the middle of the pool and into and out of each turn.

Oxygen is the most precious nutrient out there for us. So use it, lots of it. If you insist on breathing to both sides, then breathe three times to the right, followed by three times to the left…but breathe more often.

If you are struggling on the technical side, let us (or another coach) help you. It is very hard to know or understand the subtle mistakes you may be making without a good trained eye and/or a camera on you. Every triathlete has very specific swim training needs. The motions of a fast freestyle swimmer are neither intuitive nor obvious. Nor are they easy. You need to be told what you are doing right or wrong, because what you are doing in the water and what you think you are doing are two very different things.

We don’t expect you to train like an elite swimmer, as that won’t help your triathlon, either. But more than likely, you do need to up your training, breathe more and most importantly, think like a swimmer.

new2tri19 · 19-01-2020 9:23pm

Kurt_Godel. wrote: »

I was thinking more about the breathing question... reread an article from a few years back by Gary Hall Snr.

Interesting I was thinking more about the breathing also , I was wondering why I am quicker breathing every 4 strokes than I am using a snorkel.
When I practice with a snorkel my times are similar to without a snorkel. I realized that in order to BE4 I am increasing my stroke rate , my stroke rate is very low at 22 strokes per minute (measuring one hand ) no where near the 60 strokes that seems to be recommended for triathletes .
I noticed that my stroke rate was at 24 strokes per minute BE4 . It was noticeably easier as well I was doing 8 sets of 400m and coming in at 6:40 which would be fast for me and instead of panting at the wall I was ready to go again within 5-10 seconds.

Of course I may have just had a good day at the pool and I've read too much into one swim. Fingers crossed its going to stick around though.

BTH · 20-01-2020 1:50pm

BE3 for warmup, cool down and easy/slower swimming.
BE2 for harder work.
Always been faster BE2. Always race BE2. Apparently (never looked before, but seeing at it's become part of this conversation) average strokes/min 28, max 36 for this mornings swim.

new2tri19 · 20-01-2020 2:00pm

BTH wrote: »

BE3 for warmup, cool down and easy/slower swimming.
BE2 for harder work.
Always been faster BE2. Always race BE2. Apparently (never looked before, but seeing at it's become part of this conversation) average strokes/min 28, max 36 for this mornings swim.

I know my strokes are slow because often you find yourself swimming alongside the person in the lane beside you and you can notice they are turning the hands over much quicker ( although not necessarily moving faster ) .
I imagine its like cycling a bike in hard v easy gear . If I could get my stroke rate from 22 to 30 and keep the same technique in theory I should be able to go about 33% quicker now that would be nice !
Any of the better swimmers I follow on strava all seem to be at that 30 average spm.

audiRon · 20-01-2020 2:11pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

Interesting I was thinking more about the breathing also , I was wondering why I am quicker breathing every 4 strokes than I am using a snorkel.
When I practice with a snorkel my times are similar to without a snorkel. I realized that in order to BE4 I am increasing my stroke rate , my stroke rate is very low at 22 strokes per minute (measuring one hand ) no where near the 60 strokes that seems to be recommended for triathletes .
I noticed that my stroke rate was at 24 strokes per minute BE4 . It was noticeably easier as well I was doing 8 sets of 400m and coming in at 6:40 which would be fast for me and instead of panting at the wall I was ready to go again within 5-10 seconds.

Of course I may have just had a good day at the pool and I've read too much into one swim. Fingers crossed its going to stick around though.

Gary Hall Sr. is counting both hands, so just double your 22/min.

new2tri19 · 20-01-2020 3:21pm

audiRon wrote: »

Gary Hall Sr. is counting both hands, so just double your 22/min.

Yeah I get that thanks , its still on the low side though 44 not great ideal , supposed to be 60 , its interesting to hear what others are at . Are there any fast guys at 44 or so ?

audiRon · 20-01-2020 3:48pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

Yeah I get that thanks , its still on the low side though 44 not great ideal , supposed to be 60 , its interesting to hear what others are at . Are there any fast guys at 44 or so ?

new2tri19 · 20-01-2020 4:35pm

Wow 60*100 off 1:30 unreal swimming can't even hold that pace for 1*100 , how many years to get that good ?

audiRon · 20-01-2020 4:39pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

Wow 60*100 off 1:30 unreal swimming can't even hold that pace for 1*100 , how many years to get that good ?

Started about 35 years ago, competitive swimming, dabbled in Tri and marathons when I hit my midlife crisis a few years ago, but back swimming only now. Still lurk around here though

peter kern · 20-01-2020 5:34pm

https://swimswam.com/tritonwear-analysis-impact-of-stroke-rate-dps-on-freestyle-speed/

as with everything it depends whats right

but just looking at stroke rate does not help

audi ron I would Say that there is Many adult learners that dont select the correct stroke rate as they have no real notion what the correct stroke is and what aspects it entails ie kick ,acceleration during stroke, timing etc etc

btw ronan is there a middlife crisses scale ..... ie ironman vs swimming the irish sea (north channel )
Ie are you sure your midlife crisis finished with the ironman lol

audiRon · 20-01-2020 6:03pm

peter kern wrote: »

https://swimswam.com/tritonwear-analysis-impact-of-stroke-rate-dps-on-freestyle-speed/

as with everything it depends whats right

but just looking at stroke rate does not help

audi ron I would Say that there is Many adult learners that dont select the correct stroke rate as they have no real notion what the correct stroke is and what aspects it entails ie kick ,acceleration during stroke, timing etc etc

btw ronan is there a middlife crisses scale ..... ie ironman vs swimming the irish sea (north channel )
Ie are you sure your midlife crisis finished with the ironman lol

Yea, I agree 100% as I see the rate as more of a consequence of everything else going on, with the output being the time and stroke rate. Complete waste of time increasing the rate losing feel of the water, having your hand/arm going through the water like a hot knife through butter, i.e. the rate goes up and DPS goes down. For me I think feel of water, and reduction of drag is most important.
Am hoping the midlife crisis goes on for the next 20years

TopOfTheHill · 21-01-2020 10:50am

audiRon wrote: »

Yea, I agree 100% as I see the rate as more of a consequence of everything else going on ..... i.e. the rate goes up and DPS goes down.

From your table it was the DSP and rate that I picked out. You have a lower turnover rate (19 vs 24) than me with a higher DPS (3.46 vs 2.5), so that gives me something to investigate - how to get my DPS up, while also avoiding to relax and glide to far.

audiRon · 21-01-2020 1:59pm

TopOfTheHill wrote: »

From your table it was the DSP and rate that I picked out. You have a lower turnover rate (19 vs 24) than me with a higher DPS (3.46 vs 2.5), so that gives me something to investigate - how to get my DPS up, while also avoiding to relax and glide to far.

Plenty of front end catch drills, and full stroke ensuring you are finishing the back end of the opposite arm while catching the front and keeping a high wrist and elbow.

new2tri19 · 21-01-2020 2:04pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-aG10Hv-NM

Anyone seen this , its mind boggling how this is 1.10/100m pace and he barely moves .

audiRon · 21-01-2020 3:31pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-aG10Hv-NM

Anyone seen this , its mind boggling how this is 1.10/100m pace and he barely moves .

For a 200 freestyler who can probably go 1:45 in a race holding 1:10/100m is probably a little faster than warm up speed for him.

Kurt_Godel. · 21-01-2020 5:40pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-aG10Hv-NM

Anyone seen this , its mind boggling how this is 1.10/100m pace and he barely moves .

At a guess he's demonstrating a stroke to show a particular coaching technique (rather than demonstrating his own freestyle stroke). Low head, long glide, almost catch-up stroke, 2-beat kick... its often sold as an example of how to swim more efficiently to triathletes in particular ("Total Immersion"). Lovely if you can do it at 1:10/100m (and maintain the pace for 750/1500/3800) but from what I've observed its useful for getting people swimming to around 2:00/100m pace and they plateau from there.

That's just my 2c worth, happy to be corrected if any faster swimmers here are using that type of glide stroke.

audiRon · 21-01-2020 5:57pm

Kurt_Godel. wrote: »

At a guess he's demonstrating a stroke to show a particular coaching technique (rather than demonstrating his own freestyle stroke). Low head, long glide, almost catch-up stroke, 2-beat kick... its often sold as an example of how to swim more efficiently to triathletes in particular ("Total Immersion"). Lovely if you can do it at 1:10/100m (and maintain the pace for 750/1500/3800) but from what I've observed its useful for getting people swimming to around 2:00/100m pace and they plateau from there.

That's just my 2c worth, happy to be corrected if any faster swimmers here are using that type of glide stroke.

The limiting factor for most, particularly adults trying to improve, is in flexibility, shoulders and ankles, consequently they wouldn't be able to get their bodies into the good streamed low drag position he has. He's getting about 10m off the wall and under 23 strokes per length. When he starts his pull, he's practically on his side fully extended. If he's the guy mentioned in the comments, Dan Smith, he's 6ft3 too which helps.

new2tri19 · 04-02-2020 8:36pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-aG10Hv-NM

Anyone seen this , its mind boggling how this is 1.10/100m pace and he barely moves .

Here is a breakdown of that stroke from the guy at effortless swimming , I learned a few things from it .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVZZy-8fv4

new2tri19 · 14-03-2020 11:58am

With my regular pools closing for a few weeks at least I'm concerned about losing form totally. I've never had a prolonged break from swimming any tips ?
Am tempted to get into the see , google tells me water is about 8 degrees , can't imagine doing anymore than 10-20 mins at that temperature which may be pointless.

woody1 · 14-03-2020 12:28pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

With my regular pools closing for a few weeks at least I'm concerned about losing form totally. I've never had a prolonged break from swimming any tips ?
Am tempted to get into the see , google tells me water is about 8 degrees , can't imagine doing anymore than 10-20 mins at that temperature which may be pointless.

was thinking the same. Don't want to lose what improvement ive made. Was thinking weights. I'm going to lose form hope to compensate with strength. I'll do the 2 hours I was doing in the pool in the garage with the few bits I have. Have learned good bit from s and c guy I go to.

audiRon · 14-03-2020 3:34pm

Dust of the wetsuit, 30mins in the sea every few days will help preserve feel for the water, as long as the conditions are safe.
Gives you a chance to work on open water skills a bit earlier in the season too.

marizpan · 14-03-2020 5:04pm

I have the same issue.
My swim team reckon that the sea temperatures are still too cold with some members being competitive open water swimmers.
I’m minding an injury that has taken me out of running so the bike is going in for a service on Monday.
I’m tempted to test the water later in the week with a quick dip or a surf. What I find hardest is having a cold head and the headaches afterwards that that can trigger. Even with two silicone hats and a thermal hat over them.

I’ve worked really hard over the winter with crack of dawn training seasons so I’m gutted to lose any fitness.
Also I find it very good for the head.

audiRon · 14-03-2020 8:40pm

marizpan wrote: »

I have the same issue.
My swim team reckon that the sea temperatures are still too cold with some members being competitive open water swimmers.
I’m minding an injury that has taken me out of running so the bike is going in for a service on Monday.
I’m tempted to test the water later in the week with a quick dip or a surf. What I find hardest is having a cold head and the headaches afterwards that that can trigger. Even with two silicone hats and a thermal hat over them.

I’ve worked really hard over the winter with crack of dawn training seasons so I’m gutted to lose any fitness.
Also I find it very good for the head.

Coldest time of the year now so get in for a few mins and build up the time over the next few weeks. You wont regret it and for sure come the Summer racing season you'll feel the benefit.

Swimming related questions .

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