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School patronage

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    this is really insidious the priest claiming the community is holding him back

    Would love to know HOW exactly they're doing that. Perhaps he needs a push from the ET crowd also calling on him and mentioning how they're part of the community too....:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Obliq wrote: »
    Would love to know HOW exactly they're doing that. Perhaps he needs a push from the ET crowd also calling on him and mentioning how they're part of the community too....:confused:

    But didn't jebus clearly say in his many sermons on school patronage that catholic buildings can only be used for Catholic book learning, so the heathens are on their own?????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    lazygal wrote: »
    But didn't jebus clearly say in his many sermons on school patronage that catholic buildings can only be used for Catholic book learning, so the heathens are on their own?????

    I KNEW it. Being brought up atheist, I missed so much of the ONE TRUTH it's just not funny. :mad:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    this is really insidious the priest claiming the community is holding him back
    If they're restraining him from interacting with kids, then I really have to wonder who's doing the PR on this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    robindch wrote: »
    If they're restraining him from interacting with kids, then I really have to wonder who's doing the PR on this.

    RC Patroned Schools which are on Church owned lands and have the local parish priest on the board of management often have to endure the parish priest popping over into the school with out any forewarning. They will just be in the teachers break room or do surprise class visits often with out letting the school Secretary or principal know they are in the school.

    So I can see why an ET school renting an currently disused RC School on Church owned lands is an issue also there is that wee thing about canon law on church owned lands that it is considered in effect and schools which are can not promote teachings/ideology/run workshops which conflict with church teachings.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Morag wrote: »
    So I can see why an ET school renting an currently disused RC School on Church owned lands is an issue......conflict with church teachings.
    If the land is owned by a trust fund representing the interests of the former Christian Brothers, it is not up to the local parish to rent out the building to the ET school.
    It should be a question of the trust fund transferring ownership to the State, as part payment for redress payments. The State would then have the option of leasing the building to the new (active) school patron at nominal rent, or giving it to them.
    What is actually happening I'm not sure, but it looks like the trust fund is
    (a) trying to sell it for loadsa money
    (b) refusing to let the heathens use the vacant facility (on moral grounds) until after transfer of the property title is complete.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    The Rice trust was set up to remove the assets from being directly owned by the christian brother order and falling under the purview of the courts in compensation cases.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Morag wrote: »
    The Rice trust was set up to remove the assets from being directly owned by the christian brother order and falling under the purview of the courts in compensation cases.

    Now you see it, now you don't.

    A true miracle at last!


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Move from current religious instruction in Catholic schools may begin by 2014 http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/move-from-current-religious-instruction-in-catholic-schools-may-begin-by-2014-1.1510094
    “I hope that over a relatively short period of time – but having respect to the process of the delivery of education in the school itself – that the choice of schools will be much more diverse than it currently is. And that in areas where there is just the one school which is funded by the taxpayer, and to which all children go, not only would that school be inclusive and welcoming as they are at the moment, but they would be respectful to the rights of children as indicated in the various international agreements that we’ve signed up for,” Mr Quinn said.

    first time I've heard him mention rights in terms of international agreements, one hopes he was referring to the right to not be in religious school rather then the right to a religious education (which isn't being disrespected at the moment)
    “In the areas [where] there will be no additional school and this is the only school that’s serving that community, we have to find a way in which existing rights, underpinned by international law and decisions of the Oireachtas, can be implemented in the classroom and the school – and we are trying to explore that,” he said
    Mr Quinn said that while the decision to replace traditional religion teaching with the teaching of world religions is a matter for the patron of the school to decide, the object of the exercise was to recognise “the primacy of parental choice”.

    Atheist Ireland have continue to be very strong on this, perhaps Quinn's reference to international agreements is them rubbing off on him, but as ever this wave at international agreements flies in the face of them.

    Does the Government believe that the level of protection afforded to a human right – such as the right to freedom of religion – should depend on the preference of the majority in a particular area?
    http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2013/08/does-the-government-believe-that-the-level-of-protection-afforded-to-a-human-right-%E2%80%93-such-as-the-right-to-freedom-of-religion-%E2%80%93-should-depend-on-the-preference-of-the-majority-in-a-par/#comment-16189

    The Following is an extract from the Submission by Dr. Alison Mawhinney (Bangor University) to the UN Human Rights Committee with respect to the Adoption of the List of Issues related to Ireland’s fourth periodic report under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

    In 2008 the UN Human Rights Committee raised concern regarding the human rights of secular parents and their children. They stated that:-

    “The Committee notes with concern that the vast majority of Ireland’s primary schools are privately run denominational schools that have adopted a religious integrated curriculum thus depriving many parents and children who so wish to have access to secular primary education. (arts. 2, 18, 24, 26).

    The State party should increase its efforts to ensure that non-denominational primary education is widely available in all regions of the State party, in view of the increasingly diverse and multi-ethnic composition of the population of the State party.”

    Article 2 the right to be Free from Discrimination.

    Article 18 the right to Freedom of Conscience.

    Article 24 the rights of the child.

    Article 26 the Right to Equality before the law.

    It is clear that there is a human rights issue here which the Irish state is ignoring as it has done nothing since the comments of the UN in 2008 to protect the rights of minorities in denominational schools.

    The main points of the Submission are as follows:-

    “The approach of the Government, and the Forum, is deeply flawed and fails to meet the recommendation of the Human Rights Committee ‘that non-denominational primary education is [made] widely available in all regions of the State party’.

    First, from a human rights perspective parental surveys of the type recommended are highly objectionable and cut across the essence of human rights law with its focus on the right of the individual. Under this approach, respect for your right to be protected from unwanted religious teachings and from discrimination comes to depend simply on whether there is a sufficient number of like-minded individuals living in your geographical area. Or, indeed, in some cases, whether, when the poll was carried out, there was a sufficient number of like-minded individuals in the area.

    The second problem with the Government’s approach is that non-Christian parents and children living in rural areas will continue to be denied access to non-denominational education contrary to the Human Rights Committee’s recommendation. No change in management will be made to the 1,700 Christian schools in these areas. The Government has made it clear that for these schools transfer of management is not an option.

    The Government notes that these schools will be asked to adopt a protocol of inclusiveness. However, it is very unclear how the application of such a protocol would fit with the ethos of a denominational school. For example, will a Christian integrated curriculum continue to be taught? Will religious education classes continue to be doctrinal in nature? Will religious assemblies still be held? Will sacrament preparation – which takes up a very large amount of time – continue to take place within schools? Will Catholic teaching on the sinfulness of abortion and homosexuality continue to be taught?”


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    After 2.5 years, just more waffle, no progress.

    What's he going to do, cut funding to RC schools where he wishes a change in patron? not likely

    Even if he did, you can guarantee that the 'we have a right to be catholic' crowd will come out in force and you can guarantee that he and all the other politicians will back down.

    P!ss off catholics = loss of votes

    P!ss off atheists = no one cares

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    ninja900 wrote: »
    cut funding to RC schools where he wishes a change in patron
    That would be an effective plan alright. If the political will was there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/legislation-to-create-more-fair-and-transparent-school-enrolment-process-1.1512680

    Changes being implemented to the admissions policies of secondary schools. No changes to religious preference of course, I don't think anybody was expecting anything like that, too big an issue to get in without a fuss.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    TheChizler wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/legislation-to-create-more-fair-and-transparent-school-enrolment-process-1.1512680

    Changes being implemented to the admissions policies of secondary schools. No changes to religious preference of course, I don't think anybody was expecting anything like that, too big an issue to get in without a fuss.

    Couldn't quite believe I was hearing this on the news just now - you can only apply for a school 11 months before they start? MAYHEM! Oh dear, oh dear - so Quinn has pretty much purposely missed the biggest trick of just plain and simple banning any discrimination, in favour of discrimination on whatever grounds aren't on his list. Religious discrimination not on it, sigh.

    "One of the biggest changes is that waiting lists will end. While some schools may be allowed to clear existing waiting lists, in the main these “first come first served” lists will go and different criteria will be applied in enrolment. These will be chosen by the school itself but must be published, making discrimination difficult."

    There will be secret lists of course. Who in the name of reason, is going to be ok with not knowing if their child won't get into a school, less than a year before they start? Especially if you are atheist or an unsuitable religion for the local N.S.'s? Wow. I suppose that the fact everyone will be in the same panic is quite fair, but of course that will only encourage schools to publish criteria placating the right religious families locally, which is still within their rights.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

    If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

    My mother lives between two NS schools (one boys and one girls) and at going in/getting out time it is impossible to get next or near my mother's due to the insane traffic/parking and I know for a fact that many of the kids in both schools live a considerable distance away - both schools are considered among the best in Cork city so are always over subscribed and children who live within walking distance end up having to travel to schools further afield as they didn't make the 'cut'.

    It's insane.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    It's insane.

    Totally insane that they didn't take this opportunity to say WHAT criteria are acceptable/unacceptable. The I.T. article here actually has the cheek to define COI membership as a "soft barrier" to enrollment and DOESN'T MENTION THE RCC!!!!!!!!
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/new-school-entry-rules-will-ban-application-fees-waiting-lists-and-interviews-1.1512675

    Just.....what?

    Aodhan O'Riordain TD calling them "Excellent reforms from Minister Ruairí Quinn" :mad:


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

    If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

    This would actually seem the most environmental way of running schools as well as you may not even need as many buses put on, people are closer so more should be able to walk or cycle to school....in theory. That is of course if their over protective parents will let them!

    For example where i live atleast two buses are put on to bring kids in from 10miles away for the secondary schools, even though there's plenty of secondary schools in the area they live in.

    Now of course you'll likely have schools that are too full, in such cases thats where they need investment etc.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Cabaal wrote: »
    This would actually seem the most environmental way of running schools as well as you may not even need as many buses put on, people are closer so more should be able to walk or cycle to school....in theory. That is of course if their over protective parents will let them!

    For example where i live atleast two buses are put on to bring kids in from 10miles away for the secondary schools, even though there's plenty of secondary schools in the area they live in.

    Now of course you'll likely have schools that are too full, in such cases thats where they need investment etc.

    Ironically, when I was a child neither of these schools were considered 'desirable', quite the opposite in fact. It was where the children who couldn't get into 'good' schools ended up - the boys school was very small and the girls was in a tumbled down old manor house so both were attended only by local children who had no other option.

    The parents of those children engaged in massive fundraising and the boys school was extended and a new girls school was constructed - it took 20 years to complete but they did it.

    Now, ironically, local children can't get in to either unless their parents/siblings attended...many of those parents no longer live in the area but drive their children in often from a considerable distance and seem to believe they 'own' the schools but don't 'get' that their parent's took control of these 'undesirable' schools and made them desirable so that the children who didn't have the option of commuting could still have an excellent education in their local community....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Now, ironically, local children can't get in to either unless their parents/siblings attended...many of those parents no longer live in the area but drive their children in often from a considerable distance and seem to believe they 'own' the schools but don't 'get' that their parent's took control of these 'undesirable' schools and made them desirable so that the children who didn't have the option of commuting could still have an excellent education in their local community....

    There seems to be a grand tradition of using Granny's address when applying for school places to help the little darlings get a place in Mammy's school, even though they are commuting from miles away and not part of the community for playdates, sports, parties etc.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    RainyDay wrote: »
    There seems to be a grand tradition of using Granny's address when applying for school places to help the little darlings get a place in Mammy's school, even though they are commuting from miles away and not part of the community for playdates, sports, parties etc.

    The issue I have also is all that time in cars/buses removes a quality of life from the child and parent, this is time the student could spend at home:
    - Playing
    - Being social with friends
    - Doing homework
    - Sports event


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    RainyDay wrote: »
    There seems to be a grand tradition of using Granny's address when applying for school places to help the little darlings get a place in Mammy's school, even though they are commuting from miles away and not part of the community for playdates, sports, parties etc.

    Absolutely - that was why I suggested the 'rule' re:catchment area be based on polling stations of parents/guardians. Mind you - people may end up voting from Grannies...:P

    It was suggested to me that my granddaughter used my mother's address to get into the girl's school I was referring to - so we could have had a great-granny's address being used. Child in question lived at the other side of the city. :rolleyes:

    Then there was the option of grandchilder going to a school near the university I work in - some arrangement has been made for staff. This particular school was the school my mother went to in the 1930s/40s but had had fallen on hard times - but again local people rallied around and took control and now it is 'desirable' and highly attractive to academics working locally but living bloody miles away.

    We didn't actually go to those 'local' schools as we had 'options' - i.e. a granny who lived near the desirable schools in the 1960s/70s - but I ended up in a private school in the city centre due to irreconcilable religious differences and an inability to keep my mouth shut. :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Obliq wrote: »
    Couldn't quite believe I was hearing this on the news just now - you can only apply for a school 11 months before they start? MAYHEM!
    I don't see the problem with this. Do you really need to know what school they have a place in when they are still in nappies?
    What if you were on a "waiting list" (or more accurately a "suitability list") and you wanted to move to another area. You'd have to give up the place. Then you'd be bottom of the (secret) "waiting list" in the new area.Standard procedure then is to go lick-ar$ing the local godman to secure a place in the new area, thereby displacing someone else.

    If the whole procedure is transparent, with published criteria for who gets priority, then any religious discrimination will be shown up for what it is. Living locally and having siblings already in the school are both justifiable reasons for giving priority in a State funded school. IMO.
    Religious persuasion, length of time in the area, and "who you know" are not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    recedite wrote: »
    I don't see the problem with this. Do you really need to know what school they have a place in when they are still in nappies?
    What if you were on a "waiting list" (or more accurately a "suitability list") and you wanted to move to another area. You'd have to give up the place. Then you'd be bottom of the (secret) "waiting list" in the new area.Standard procedure then is to go lick-ar$ing the local godman to secure a place in the new area, thereby displacing someone else.

    If the whole procedure is transparent, with published criteria for who gets priority, then any religious discrimination will be shown up for what it is. Living locally and having siblings already in the school are both justifiable reasons for giving priority in a State funded school. IMO.
    Religious persuasion, length of time in the area, and "who you know" are not.

    Yeah, I see what you're saying. It would certainly be an improvement to see public notice of what way a school is going to discriminate. I'm thinking in particular of ET schools I suppose, where you certainly would need to be on a list when they're still in nappies.

    But also, say that I'm surrounded by a choice of 5 catholic schools, only one of which is within walking distance/short drive and the others are within 12 miles from my house (rural area). If they all publicly display that their enrollment criteria will include RCC membership, and the teachers can't tell me my child would be accepted until less than a year before they start school because a first come/first served basis is not in operation any more, then presumably none of the schools would be inclined to tell atheist/other religious parents that their child has a place until it becomes clear there are some left over (at which time there will be a lottery, apparently).

    It's potentially less good than it is already, as a school might not be able to guarantee a place till the last minute. Transparency won't make a difference. The state is already aware that this is a problem and have just shoved it on down the line.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

    If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

    That only works if all schools are very similar. What if your local school is a Catholic NS and the one 6 miles away is an Educate Together? Do the Atheist, Muslim, Mormon, etc families in the first area have to send their children to the NS while the Catholic families in the second area have to send their kids to the ET even though they'd prefer the NS?
    recedite wrote: »
    I don't see the problem with this. Do you really need to know what school they have a place in when they are still in nappies?

    Because people want to get on with their lives but due to the undersupply of places, people who want an ET school place for their child are left in complete limbo until they know if their child has a place or not. Take Limerick with 2 ET schools for the whole (geographically large) county. What do you do now if you want to buy a house and have a child who will start school in 2018? Do you take a gamble and buy a house near the ET even though the family houses there are some of the most expensive in the city and county? Giving up the chance to live in a bigger, cheaper house, nearer your family for the sake of a school place your child may never get? Or do you buy the house you like more in the area you'd like best if you don't count the schools available and then end up having a car commute to school or having to send your child to a school with an ethos you are very uncomfortable with so they can have a more relaxed journey twice a day? Or do you just wait and keep renting despite the shítty state of rental stock in this country and it's utter unsuitability for family living?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Religious indoctrination should not be paid for by the state.

    We should aim for an inclusive society.
    Faith schools are anti-inclusive.

    My biggest fear is that the present system promotes the establishment of muslim schools and all that goes with it.

    This ghettoisatation of our education system will bite us down the road as we will alow muslims to remain separate and different to the rest of the population.

    No religion schools will include everybody and force the integration of muslims (and all other faiths).
    This has to be for the better.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Religious indoctrination should not be paid for by the state.

    We should aim for an inclusive society.
    Faith schools are anti-inclusive.

    My biggest fear is that the present system promotes the establishment of muslim schools and all that goes with it.

    This ghettoisatation of our education system will bite us down the road as we will alow muslims to remain separate and different to the rest of the population.

    No religion schools will include everybody and force the integration of muslims (and all other faiths).
    This has to be for the better.

    and that my good friend is exactly what is going to happen in the future unless things change.

    Other faith schools will be allowed to be created, so then we'll have them Educate Together and Catholic "ethos" schools. Of course the joke will be the catholic one's will continue to be tax payer funded.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Cabaal wrote: »
    the catholic one's will continue to be tax payer funded.
    ... if only those Catholics paid taxes, instead of the state funding by shaking the magic money tree.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    <facepalm>


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I cannot for the life of me understand why a simple catchment area system cannot be drawn up and children who live within that area are given first priority for NS schools.

    If the adults use that schools as their local polling booth - their children are in the catchment area of that school - simples!

    My mother lives between two NS schools (one boys and one girls) and at going in/getting out time it is impossible to get next or near my mother's due to the insane traffic/parking and I know for a fact that many of the kids in both schools live a considerable distance away - both schools are considered among the best in Cork city so are always over subscribed and children who live within walking distance end up having to travel to schools further afield as they didn't make the 'cut'.

    It's insane.

    We already have that, it is set along parish boundaries, both catchment for schools and polling stations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Manach wrote: »
    ... if only those Catholics paid taxes, instead of the state funding by shaking the magic money tree.

    How about this; because everyone pays taxes, regardless of religion or lack thereof, the school system is secular, teaching comparative religion instead of indoctrinating into one specific faith, and if the Catholic church wants to fund Catholic-only schools with a religious ethos they can pay for it themselves. I'm sure that gold throne in the Vatican would pay for a few teachers.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    iguana wrote: »
    That only works if all schools are very similar. What if your local school is a Catholic NS and the one 6 miles away is an Educate Together? Do the Atheist, Muslim, Mormon, etc families in the first area have to send their children to the NS while the Catholic families in the second area have to send their kids to the ET even though they'd prefer the NS?

    This was the system in place in both London and Sheffield when Sonofmine was going to primary school (and may still be).

    All children living in the catchment area were entitled to a place at the local national school but this did not oblige parents to send their children to that school as there were also faith based schools catering to a wider catchment - for example where I lived the Catholic school was within walking distance, as were the Muslim/Hindu ones and the Jewish school was 3 stops away on the bus.

    If you wanted your children to go to a faith based school - you applied directly to that school and were prepared to pay a small fee.
    What was unheard of was for parents to send their children to a NS in a different area to the one they lived in unless there were compelling reasons - and places available - they simply wouldn't get in and would be told to go to their local NS.

    The NS my son attended did teach about religion, what they never did was teach that one particular religion the true religion. They went to great pains to teach the kids about all religions and organised trips to synagogues, temples, mosques, various Christian churches etc. It was always ' Muslims believe this - Mohammad, would you like to show us around the mosque now and tell your class mates what happens and what you believe. Next week we are going to the synagogue and Nathan will tell us all about being Jewish.'

    While I may have had issues about some of the pedagogy used in teaching academic subjects (don't get me started on their insistence on using only the bloody phonetic alphabet!) I have nothing but praise for how English NS handle the subject of religion and their enrollment policies plus the fact that they were very much based in the local community so worked hand in hand with the local community centre (where I worked) and always had a visible presence in local festivals etc etc.


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