Live self-Builds - mod warning in post no. 1

newbuild06 · 12-11-2007 6:22pm

started october 2006 as soon as we had our base ready the lovely rain came to the midlands for a few months so we didnt really get laying any blocks till mid to late jan. We are hoping to be in for christmas getting our tiling and painting done at the moment, where do all the weekends go i wonder!! Anyhow here are a few snaps of the outside of the house, i was meant to post them sooner but getting some spare time at the moment is a bit of a problem.

bauderline · 12-11-2007 7:34pm

Hi tdiman,

My site not only suited a basement but really required one in order to bring the house "out of ground". The site level is high nearer the road and then falls off rapidly to level ground half way accross the site. The front of the house is located just were the slope bottoms out.

The ground is fairly high around the left side of the house as well so its a similar story. This means that the basement is easily hidden from the front and also the left side of the house. The right hand side and back of the house is not visible from the road so we are able to leave the basement exposed.

When I bought the site it had FPP for a 2300 sq ft domer stuck at the bottom of the site. I went and had a chat with the planner armed with photographs of various houses. He was a real sound bloke and spelt out what would be acceptable and what would not. He was not keen on a 2 storey but had no problem with 1.5 storey house. Brick was out but natural stone was in. The may concern they appear to have is with the "bulk" of house, basically that it doesn't look overly big. A couple months later after sitting down with the architect he suggested the basement to raise the house up and give us extra space. They ran it by the planner and he didn't see a problem with it. 12 weeks later I got FPP for a 1.5 storey 5700 sq ft house !

The house worked out a lot larger floor area wise than I had anticipated, but I will put it too good use !

In short if its hidden from the road the CoCo should not have an issue with it. The only thing I would say though is that you need a site that suits it. I can only imagine the craic and expense of digging a large hole for the basement on a flat site. You would really need to have a good reason for the space and no other way of getting it.

Construction wise any competent builder should be able to handle it, you just have to tank any of the walls that will be below ground level.

The house is costing around 460k but that includes full natural stone finish, concrete ground and first floors, full underfloor heating etc. The basement is costing 70k ....

Hope this helps ! Anything else just ask !

rgs baud !

bbam · 13-11-2007 9:32am

Newbuild06...
House looks well, quite similar profile to the front as ours... We axed the centre top window to have space for 5m of solar... I hope its worth it..
Cheers
bam

smashey · 13-11-2007 9:44am

newbuild06 wrote: »

started october 2006 as soon as we had our base ready the lovely rain came to the midlands for a few months so we didnt really get laying any blocks till mid to late jan. We are hoping to be in for christmas getting our tiling and painting done at the moment, where do all the weekends go i wonder!! Anyhow here are a few snaps of the outside of the house, i was meant to post them sooner but getting some spare time at the moment is a bit of a problem.

I got an FI from the council regarding a house and had it drawn when I saw yours. The front elevation is almost identical. Where do you live again?

newbuild06 · 13-11-2007 1:44pm

Hi Smashy
We are building just outside mullingar about 10 miles to the west of the town. When we went to the architects we didnt really have anything in mind just a few ideas and she showed us a few houses that they had designed and got planning with. We liked that design and just made a few modifications to it. We have left the sitting room as a vaulted celing it is to the right of the house as you look at it straight on (must attach a picture of it whenever i get a chance).

Hi bbam
we were going to do that with our solar but we decided to put the panels on the shed so we then put our cylinder out there with our pump and our bolier and put them all in the boiler room which gives us a bit more space in the house.

Regards
NB06

Villain · 14-11-2007 5:36pm

Well my self build is underway, well the entrance has been opened after the solictor dotted the I's and crossed the T's. Trying to get it fenced off and order some 2" stone for start of driveway at the moment.

I got my quote for my block work, remember my house is 2500 sqft, the cost of Labour for all external walls and internal walls on the ground floor is €5400!!! I'm still surprised at how low that is, and before anyone asks this guy is a very good with over 20 years experience. He also quoted €1,900 for the garage which 1000 sqft with 4" solid cavity.

My window and door quotes are around 13-17 for timber double glazed including my large 5m*2.5m window and all doors.

21-11-2007 2:39pm

The Irish Examiner (21 November 2007) have published an article about our self-build in the new homes section P22,

Header

Main article

Unfortunately the photos came out badly so the house pictured (but not scanned) in the article is not ours:(

Lynch32 · 23-11-2007 3:57pm

I’ve recently got past planning permission for a 4,100 story and a half house.
I got 2 quotes from good builders for a complete build i.e. builders finish.

The first quote I got was 246K, which I thought wasn’t too bad.

The second I got was for 185 K– I couldn’t believe it for i.e for the exact same job. I did my homework to ensure I was comparing like with like i.e. getting the same things from each contractor and also the reputation each. Both were the same.

As you can imagine I am going with 185 K price. This includes everything except kitchen, sanitaryware i.e. the ususal builders finish. It also includes drylining and an oak finish.

So this works out at 45 per sq ft. It’s obvious this contractor can build my house for this price and still make a profit – else he wouldn’t do it.
I can’t understand this business of people quoting figures like €100 per sq ft, it’s such a rip off.

Also it doesn’t cost twice as much to build a 4000 sq ft house as a 2000 sq ft house. So why do builders even cost a job up in this way. Of course its just to rip people off. I am so glad I’ve met a builder who is prepared to do a job at a fair price. Of course I’ll need about another 100 K on top of that for a good finish. But all in all I should come in at 280 K worst scenario for a high standard finished house all in (€68 per sq ft).

Please shop around !!!

muffler · 23-11-2007 6:14pm

Lynch32 wrote: »

I’ve recently got past planning permission for a 4,100 story and a half house.

Timber framed or blocks & mortar?

Lynch32 wrote: »

The second I got was for 185 K– I couldn’t believe it for i.e for the exact same job

Damn fine price if its genuine.

Lynch32 wrote: »

As you can imagine I am going with 185 K price. This includes everything except kitchen, sanitaryware i.e. the ususal builders finish. It also includes drylining and an oak finish

Sounds too good to be true.

Lynch32 wrote: »

So this works out at 45 per sq ft. It’s obvious this contractor can build my house for this price and still make a profit – else he wouldn’t do it.

Obviously.

While I have no doubt that you are of the opinion that you can get it built for that figure the reality is that the materials alone will almost come to this.

Lynch32 wrote: »

I can’t understand this business of people quoting figures like €100 per sq ft, it’s such a rip off.

That would be a tad high for Donegal but certainly not for other parts of the country.

Lynch32 wrote: »

Also it doesn’t cost twice as much to build a 4000 sq ft house as a 2000 sq ft house. So why do builders even cost a job up in this way. !!!

Agreed

Lynch32 wrote: »

Of course I’ll need about another 100 K on top of that for a good finish.

Why 100k if the main work is costing only a slight bit more. Can you elaborate on this?

Lynch32 wrote: »

Please shop around !!!

Sound advice and I would suspect that there would be very few people who wouldnt.

Would you care to share the builders name - by PM of course.
If he's as good and as cheap as you say then I could get him enough work to keep going for the next 10 years

Edit: Just noticed that this is really in the wrong thread. I will move both posts to the live self build thread

bauderline · 24-11-2007 5:26pm

To be honest I would find a figure of 185k for a 4100 sq ft house very hard to believe. The materials and labour costs for even the most basic spec of a house of that size have got cost at least that alone...

Have you spoken to anyone who this guy has built for before ? Have you seen a house that he has built ?

If I was you I would agree the terms of the stage payments in advance VERY clearly.

Good luck with your build !

Best regards, Baud.

dexlo · 25-11-2007 11:34pm

Hi, it's my first post. I wanted a basement in my house too but my engineer talked me out of it. in fact they (I have 2, lucky me) try and talk me out of everything.

Just at the pre-planning stage. Designed a 2-storey house myself and have to justify the design to the council.

Huge battle in front of me. Scary. Thought I'd go for a timber-frame? Also, looking at erecting a Wind Turbine and looking for info on an electricity-driven heating system. Might as well use it to the full.:)

muffler · 26-11-2007 1:04am

dexlo wrote: »

Hi, it's my first post. I wanted a basement in my house too but my engineer talked me out of it. in fact they (I have 2, lucky me) try and talk me out of everything.

Just at the pre-planning stage. Designed a 2-storey house myself and have to justify the design to the council.

Huge battle in front of me. Scary. Thought I'd go for a timber-frame? Also, looking at erecting a Wind Turbine and looking for info on an electricity-driven heating system. Might as well use it to the full.:)

Once is enough to post your comment. Theres some excuse for someone refreshing the page after a minute or two but theres no excusing duplicate posts 24 minutes apart.

Like walking on dodgy stairs - tread carefully.

Lynch32 · 27-11-2007 11:28am

sorry just getting to respond now.

To answer your questions....

1) Its blocks and mortar, not timber framed. Also includes Bison slabs upstairs

2) "While I have no doubt that you are of the opinion that you can get it built for that figure the reality is that the materials alone will almost come to this."

Obviously not. Also only a few years back (before house prices went crazy) you could buy the house and site for that. Remember house prices have gone crazy, materials haven't. I know labour has gone a little crazy but perhaps the fact there is a slow down in progress that it rectifying ridiculous labour prices a little.
Also (although I am no expert) I expect a contractor is able to get labour cheaper than I would directly as they are relaying on the contractors for a steady stream of work. So he makes a saving straight away, one that I can't

3) "Why 100k if the main work is costing only a slight bit more. Can you elaborate on this?"
the thing is a builders finish still requires alot of money work. although I haven't done my figures correctly and hopefully I've overestimated please see how 100K can vanish very quickly. Also I want a real nice finish so guess I have to pay for it

Council fees - almost 6 K
Kitchen + util - 18 K
Sanitary - 15 K (3 ensuites + main bathroom + down stairs toilet)
Garage - 20 K (at least)
furniture - 25 K (won't go too far with todays prices)
flooring/Tiling - 15 K (materials + labour)
solid fuel cooker - 5 K
Fireplaces * 2 = 5 K

As you can see I'm over 100 K already and I don't really think I've overestimated things. I haven't even taken in to consideration the outside of the house or any builder new requests. Infact I'd say I'd need 120K no hassle. So a builder's finish really is a false economy, just because the house looks finished its takes a lot to finish inside. Its really only a carcase you are getting.

4) "Would you care to share the builders name - by PM of course.
If he's as good and as cheap as you say then I could get him enough work to keep going for the next 10 years"
Hmmm better not. However when I've finished the build and I'm happy I will let you know. I don't want to jinks anythhg just yet. I have to say I am getting a little bit paranoid now with everybody's surprise.

Also my house is a relatively simple design, so I guess that is reflected in the price he has given me. He is also prepared to talk cash on top of that price i.e. the price he has given me is the VAT price.

Bauderline:

To answer your questions...

Yes I've seen a house he's built and its a high standard as far as I can see. We've also been asking around and he has a sound reputation i.e. been building in the area for the past 25 years so hes no chancer trying to make a name for himself. I'll continue asking though. He even told me the names of all the tradesmen he uses and their top notch, we've heard of all/most of them.

BauderlineI know you said you dounted the price - Please believe me I've better thing to do than post lies. I promise you that is the price. Posting lies and misleading people would make no sense and would not be in my nature.

Also I don't understand why yous are so shocked, other people have quoted even better prices. Wasn't there a guy who got his fully finsihed house for 55 (or there abouts) per sq ft i.e. from Galway. My full finish won't come in at that. Remember there is lots to do after a builder's finish.

hopefully the days were builders literally dream up prices are over. Seriously there was a time when I was considering giving up my job in IT and taken up a trade, I would have eared up to 2.5 times my wage.

Any more questions, sure let me know

Cheers

bauderline · 27-11-2007 12:00pm

Lynch,

Not suggesting for a moment that you are telling porkies. However I am not so sure about your builder, hence my comment regarding stage payments being clearly agreed.

The builder has to make a profit and for a house of that size and materials I just find it hard to see how it can be done. Good tradesmen have not cut their prices back by much. Hence the math doesn't add up for me.

Two questions when you have a moment, what part of the country are you in and what is the house being finished with externally ?

You can let us know what the final costs work out when you are done and if he build that house for 185k i'll be dipped in you know what...

Best regards, Baud.

Lynch32 · 27-11-2007 12:24pm

No problem Bauderline,

"However I am not so sure about your builder, hence my comment regarding stage payments being clearly agreed."
Yes I've to agree this with him. Not starting until January though. He mentioned already about 5 payments, none up front. He also said the house would be finished before he collected the final payment. Obviously we'd have to agree this formally. Believe you me I've had experience with builders before (i.e. bought a house in an estate) so I've learned my lesson from the point of view of making sure everything is completed before handing over final payments.

"Good tradesmen have not cut their prices back by much. Hence the math doesn't add up for me"
I think you right here but as I mentioned 185 is really only getting me a carcase at the end of the day. I already own the site and will have to pump at least another 100K into it for a nice finish. Remember a few years back you could have bought the house and site for that !! The current prices of houses doesn't/shouldn't reflect the cost of construction.

"Two questions when you have a moment, what part of the country are you in and what is the house being finished with externally ?"
1) donegal, inishowen
2) Finish outside is just smooth plaster. so no stone work or anything like that. As mentioned my house is quite straight forward

"You can let us know what the final costs work out when you are done and if he build that house for 185k i'll be dipped in you know what..."

I certainly will let you know. However as mentioned 185 will not finish it, just builders finish.

I can't imagine the builder has made a mistake from the point of view my experience to date (without being cynical) is that people only make mistakes when costing up jobs in their favour. I've yet to get a quote were I've been told they've forgotten to add something. Also it took 2 weeks to for him go give me the quote as he had to get the slabs priced up (takes a while for this). The night I initially showed him the plans I asked for a ball park figure just so I'd have a rough idea. I thought he wouldn't give me one as its bad to plant a price in somebody's head before you do your homework. He said it would cost almost 200K. I looked shocked, only because it was alot less than the 245 K the other guy gave me. He then said it would definitely cost less than 200K. 2 weeks later he came back to me with the final price.

Also he said he had 4 plans in ahead of me and gave me the impression he didn't need the work (not in a smart ass way). We got a guy a few weeks before that to price up a half build i.e. walls, floors and roof. He hasn't stopped ringing looking to see if we've made a decision.

Thank you for your advise, I will certainly proceed with caution and let you know how I get on in the end !!!!

Cheers

bauderline · 27-11-2007 1:32pm

Lynch,

I have to say looking through the posts builder prices in that part of the country appear to be very competitive compared to other parts of the country and I don't mean Dublin and commuter towns.

You are correct about finishing out the house, I done a thumb suck myself and calculated I could easily spend between 100 - 150 k between floors, doors, lighting, kitchen, stairs and bathrooms. I am going to try to keep it as close to 100 though to keep ourselves under control !

The only other thing I would say is get your builder to do as much as you can afford / persuade him to do whilst he is onsite, its much more cost effective this way especially when your builder appears to be extremely fair with pricing. Get any Garages / Walls / Site Works done whilst he is on site.

Other than that, fair play, and the very best of luck with your build and post some photos later in the year if you get a chance.

Best regards, Baud.

Lynch32 · 27-11-2007 1:59pm

Thanks Bauderline, good luck with your build also

BreeVdK · 03-12-2007 8:53pm

Hello,

This is a great forum for self-builds so here's my 2 cent.

Main contractor started for us 2 weeks ago and things are flying ahead already. Its a 3,000 sq.ft+ traditional two story L-shaped house. Heating people visited the site and now we have just paid deposit to them for geo-thermal heat pump system. He advised us not to bother putting in solar panels as heat-pump does the same job....

We will also put in concrete first floor and are going with Marvin for our windows.
We don't know if we are going to put in 'smart homes' style stuff yet.

Has anyone seen or is anyone using an alternative to the traditional skirting board look? I am thinking of low-lying one as opposed to usual size.

We didn't bother putting in any ensuites - too much cleaning and if we were to put one in it would be in the guest room and we don't often have anyone staying over so we left it out.

Can anyone give recommendations for doors, floors, stairs etc in the Midlands?

Villain · 03-12-2007 9:09pm

Have you got a quote from Marvin yet? I got one for a large window and it was crazy money!

sydthebeat · 04-12-2007 11:49am

BreeVdK wrote: »

Hello,

This is a great forum for self-builds so here's my 2 cent.

Main contractor started for us 2 weeks ago and things are flying ahead already. Its a 3,000 sq.ft+ traditional two story L-shaped house. Heating people visited the site and now we have just paid deposit to them for geo-thermal heat pump system. He advised us not to bother putting in solar panels as heat-pump does the same job....

We will also put in concrete first floor and are going with Marvin for our windows.
We don't know if we are going to put in 'smart homes' style stuff yet.

Has anyone seen or is anyone using an alternative to the traditional skirting board look? I am thinking of low-lying one as opposed to usual size.

We didn't bother putting in any ensuites - too much cleaning and if we were to put one in it would be in the guest room and we don't often have anyone staying over so we left it out.

Can anyone give recommendations for doors, floors, stairs etc in the Midlands?

did he give an explanation for this opinion???
during summer months (usually) all you hot water needs can be met by solar panels........
whereas geothermal might bring the water into your dwelling at 7 - 10 deg before you have to heat it.....
sounds like he was giving you his 'salesman' shpeel.......

BreeVdK · 10-12-2007 6:36pm

Hi Irish1

Our quote was around 40k and we are going with that - prefer their windows to the normal PVC which would have cost us less than 20k.

Bree

Villain · 11-12-2007 1:11pm

Oh I prefer their windows too BreeVdk, they are very nice but I think better value is available elsewhere.

hardworker · 24-12-2007 9:43pm

frankie2shoes wrote: »

just got planning in kilkenny.
going timberframe and are close to signing with kingspan (expensive but always reply to calls/mails with professional, honest, approach- worth a lot to us)
still in the geothermal or wpb/solar dilemma. edging towards geo though.
house will be 2500sq ft 4 bed finished in a lime render.
no sods turn yet, do you need a politician for this!!!!

i am from wicklow area moving to kilkenny was it hard to get planning in the county

islanderre · 01-01-2008 11:02pm

Hello All,

Over the past few days I have read and re-read in some cases all the replies in this thread as I hope within a few weeks to start building myself as my planning permission expire's in May '09.
House I intend to build is a 190m2 /2050ft2 conventional concrete block dormer with a detatched garage in Co. Galway. Due to lack of funds I intend building the four walls and roofing it then break away form it for a while (1-2 years) while more funds are gathered.
Anyway, i have a few questions that i hope ye could all help me with:
*Will the four walls and roof be sufficiant thus allowing me to finish the interior and exterior once the planning has expired??
*Could anyone give me approx costs for putting in a foundation slab:
*Costs for blocking it up to Roof Level?
*Costs for roofing it with standard roof slates?

From talking over a few pints with people they reckon 50-60k would cover it but then again alot of people I spoke with went through this 3 - 4 year ago so I am wondering if things have changed much.

Many thanks for all replies and thanks to all who have contributed to the last 6 pages of threads......... interesting reading!!!!!

muffler · 02-01-2008 12:10pm

islanderre wrote: »

Hello All,

Over the past few days I have read and re-read in some cases all the replies in this thread as I hope within a few weeks to start building myself as my planning permission expire's in May '09.
House I intend to build is a 190m2 /2050ft2 conventional concrete block dormer with a detatched garage in Co. Galway. Due to lack of funds I intend building the four walls and roofing it then break away form it for a while (1-2 years) while more funds are gathered.
Anyway, i have a few questions that i hope ye could all help me with:
*Will the four walls and roof be sufficiant thus allowing me to finish the interior and exterior once the planning has expired??
*Could anyone give me approx costs for putting in a foundation slab:
*Costs for blocking it up to Roof Level?
*Costs for roofing it with standard roof slates?

From talking over a few pints with people they reckon 50-60k would cover it but then again alot of people I spoke with went through this 3 - 4 year ago so I am wondering if things have changed much.

Many thanks for all replies and thanks to all who have contributed to the last 6 pages of threads......... interesting reading!!!!!

The planning issue is that you are expected to have the development fully completed before May 09. However you can apply for an extension of the permission (up to 3 years) subject to having substantial works completed. If you have the blockwork and roof completed then you simply fill in a form and pay a fee of €80 and Bobs your uncle. Make sure you do this about 3 - 4 months prior to the permission expiring.

In relation to building costs well they should be a wee bit cheaper this year compared to the last couple of years. The costs vary an awful lot depending on where you are located and I wouldnt want to hazard a guess as to what these would be in Galway. But there will be a few others here who will probably give you a better idea.

02-01-2008 12:42pm

muffler wrote: »

The planning issue is that you are expected to have the development fully completed before May 09. However you can apply for an extension of the permission (up to 3 years) subject to having substantial works completed. If you have the blockwork and roof completed then you simply fill in a form and pay a fee of €80 and Bobs your uncle. Make sure you do this about 3 - 4 months prior to the permission expiring.

I'd check with the council as to what they consider completed enough to have satified "substantial works completed", Roscommon coco consider walls constructed and ready for the roof as sufficient (well they did three years ago when I asked the very same question).
If substantial works had been completed then an extension was unnecessary.

muffler · 02-01-2008 6:52pm

Kenzie Hundreds Matchbox wrote: »

I'd check with the council as to what they consider completed enough to have satified "substantial works completed", Roscommon coco consider walls constructed and ready for the roof as sufficient (well they did three years ago when I asked the very same question).
If substantial works had been completed then an extension was unnecessary.

Getting the phrase "substantial works" defined is important of course as it may well vary from one planning authority to the other. But you are missing the point here Kenzie Hundreds Matchbox. If the works have been carried out to a particular stage then the person may make an application for an extension of the original permission. If they dont have sufficient works carried out they cant apply for the time extension and they would have to apply for retention & completion. If substantial works have been completed but not fully finished within the prescribed 5 year period and works continue on after that then the person would be in breach of the PP granted as works must be "fully completed" within 5 years.

All planning permissions granted clearly state that the development must be completed within a 5 year period. I think you misread the answer you were given by Roscommon Co. Council

islanderre · 02-01-2008 11:30pm

Muffler & Kenzie Hundreds Matchbox, many thanks for your replies to my post, it is much appreciated.
Anyway contacted Galway Co. Co. after reading both your replies and after a chat have arranged to meet with the planner for my area....... only problem is soonest appointment i can get is end of February. Will use this meeting to get the substantial works defined properly form a Galway Co. Co. point of view!!!!!! Also, what to find out any issues relating to putting Solar Panels on the front of the House, Front is south facing, so will ask him/her that too when i'm in.
Thanks again for the help folks.

muffler · 03-01-2008 12:19am

islanderre wrote: »

Muffler & Kenzie Hundreds Matchbox, many thanks for your replies to my post, it is much appreciated.
Anyway contacted Galway Co. Co. after reading both your replies and after a chat have arranged to meet with the planner for my area....... only problem is soonest appointment i can get is end of February. Will use this meeting to get the substantial works defined properly form a Galway Co. Co. point of view!!!!!! Also, what to find out any issues relating to putting Solar Panels on the front of the House, Front is south facing, so will ask him/her that too when i'm in.
Thanks again for the help folks.

The extension of duration of the planning permission (AKA extension of time)should be fairly straightforward unless the original application encountered difficulties. You would be allowed up to 12m2 of solar panels without permission subject to a few conditions. Details here

Oh, nearly forgot - welcome to the forum.

gally74 · 05-01-2008 10:36pm

i spoke to a planner in Galway recently on this,

Substantial means up to wall plate with the blocks,

secondly, they are more likely to gie you 6 months to 1 year to finish the build, they dont like unfinished buildings left around the country,

the bigger question for you is do you really want to start a build you dont need, you might never finish it, or else in 2-3 years decided it dosent meet your reqirments anymore and your heart mightened be in it,

if your going self build you need to be committed and put your heart into it,:)

Live self-Builds - mod warning in post no. 1

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