Thinning ash

Large bottle small glass · 16-11-2019 4:23pm #1

Hi there,
Currently marking and about to thin my 25yr old ash.

Quality in most of the 7 acres is really good with a few weak spots on western edge of wood.

Top height is circa 11-13m.

It has previously been heavily tended at about 11yrs old and a follow up light thinning at about 19yr.

A couple of times a year I will walk it a remove any cankered stems.

2 control plots done, 20m by 20m which is 0.04ha. At 300 PCT per ha I should only have 12 PCT per plot?

The good section of wood are coming in with over 20 really good quality trees and 15-17 in the weak stuff.

Do I thin it back really aggressively or would I be better with a light thin, leaving some non 12/ha for Hurley's in a few years.

If the 12/ha is right I have a lot of wood to cut!!

Only guidance I have is from here.

Silvicultural Guidelines
for the Tending and Thinning
of Broadleaves

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ifa.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Silvicultural-Guidance-Broadleaves-Teagasc.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwizyZ2bsOrlAhWFiFwKHcQBBd0QFjAHegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw31nar48zOywRqiA-hZWW-E

Large bottle small glass · 16-11-2019 4:28pm

Two images first of good part of wood and second of weakest section

Large bottle small glass · 20-11-2019 1:16pm

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

Two images first of good part of wood and second of weakest section

Bump.

Also any information on but size required for hurley butts? Juvenile can come from smaller butts? 20cm at 1.3m dbh??

$kilkenny · 20-11-2019 9:19pm

If it was myself, I would just crown thin all trees with potential for Hurley butts and the best straightest trees in the plantation. 300 to 400 trees to the hectare is what I would use myself as a rough guide for trees I would crown thin.

Break up the groups, select your PCTs and remove 2 to 3 of the biggest competitors per PCT. if you go by the rule book to the letter you will waste a lot of time doing nothing and checking your plots that aren’t just needed. Every plantation is different and you need to work of the best trees to what you have, good or bad.

Your 300 to 400 PCTs per hectare is far down the line, the silviculture guidelines I’ve always found are geared more towards producing quality timber rather than hurls. As a result, the rotation length on your 300 PCTs is technically 80 years or so, not 30. I may be wrong, this is how I’ve interpreted it through the years and I’ve just come to dismiss half of it and go with my gut.

Senior hurl at 28cm DBH I think.

Large bottle small glass · 04-12-2019 10:07pm

@$Kilkenny is there an argument for growing your ash trees with primarily hurleys in mind?

Two main reasons,
1. I haven't disease now but it's probably on the way, so may as well cash in in next few years.

2. Is there any market currently for sawlog ash.

How does one value butts? Bill of sale and itemized depending on dbh?

Thanks for any help

$kilkenny · 06-12-2019 7:25pm

Absolutely grow your ash for hurley butts and get them cashed in ASAP. If dieback gets in it can spread within 12 months.

As far as I know, I am open to correction on this, my hardwood experience wouldn't be up to standard with some of the guys on here but the commercial market that will take large quantities of sawlog type ash is for making floor boards but the price isn't much better than firewood.

Ash makes excellent furniture but getting someone to buy 3 or 4 lorry loads of material is an issue with the scale of the market.

Large bottle small glass · 20-03-2020 5:13pm

Hurley butts all sold, thinning away in between real job and family life.

Nearly there. 5 acres down 1 to go

Blackcurrants · 25-03-2020 10:13am

Hi there,
I'd definitely be planning to get as many hurles out as you can over the next few years, if you dont have dieback now, you will soon. Mark your PCT as $kilkenny suggested and thin to encourage them. Start encouraging other species to self seed into your plantation by letting enough light in but not too much to have a bramble explosion. Price will depend on the the quality of the butts, how hard they are to extract etc. but you can expect to be paid anywhere from 300-450 per m3 for butts. Make the process as transparent as possible and collect all the butts for removal in one event at the end so you can see exactly whats being sold and you can measure each butt when they're collected and base the price on a m3 basis. Its the fairest way to price butts.

Looks like a lovely ash plantation with some great stems

Large bottle small glass · 25-03-2020 10:51am

Blackcurrants wrote: »

Hi there,
I'd definitely be planning to get as many hurles out as you can over the next few years, if you dont have dieback now, you will soon. Mark your PCT as $kilkenny suggested and thin to encourage them. Start encouraging other species to self seed into your plantation by letting enough light in but not too much to have a bramble explosion. Price will depend on the the quality of the butts, how hard they are to extract etc. but you can expect to be paid anywhere from 300-450 per m3 for butts. Make the process as transparent as possible and collect all the butts for removal in one event at the end so you can see exactly whats being sold and you can measure each butt when they're collected and base the price on a m3 basis. Its the fairest way to price butts.

Looks like a lovely ash plantation with some great stems

Thanks for reply.

After waking up the overwhelming likelihood that I will get dieback at some stage I took @$kilkenny's advice and have totally geared wood towards hurley butts.

With a heavy thinning and the largest trees gone already for hurleys I should be able to put some fat on the best of the remaining trees.

Hopefully 2 to 3 years time I'll get the hurely man back in.

Once the thinning is done I'll have to get the 100 cubic metres or so of firewood out! It's on runners and stacked in lengths so no major pressure with that.

I recently had to get farm and wood valuation done. Fairly sobering looking at ash valuation!

Any ideas on trees that would grow under ash that deer don't like the taste off?
Other than spruce, I have enough of that!

Or will I have to get out my 243?

As and aside, whatever about values and the rest of it, I feel like the luckiest man in Ireland to have to broadleaf wood right now to work in.

amens · 26-03-2020 9:07am

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

Thanks for reply.

After waking up the overwhelming likelihood that I will get dieback at some stage I took @$kilkenny's advice and have totally geared wood towards hurley butts.

With a heavy thinning and the largest trees gone already for hurleys I should be able to put some fat on the best of the remaining trees.

Hopefully 2 to 3 years time I'll get the hurely man back in.

Once the thinning is done I'll have to get the 100 cubic metres or so of firewood out! It's on runners and stacked in lengths so no major pressure with that.

I recently had to get farm and wood valuation done. Fairly sobering looking at ash valuation!

Any ideas on trees that would grow under ash that deer don't like the taste off?
Other than spruce, I have enough of that!

Or will I have to get out my 243?

As and aside, whatever about values and the rest of it, I feel like the luckiest man in Ireland to have to broadleaf wood right now to work in.

I don't have much damage by deer although there are a few around. I've a small piece of the plantation that is very productive and growing ten year old ash. I've put in a few beech in the gaps to see how they get on. There's actually a mature oak tree on the site with a beech growing right underneath it. That's a bit too much shade probably. I've pruned away some ash branches so the beech have a certain amount of light overhead.

As you like spruce try a shade tolerant conifer like western hemlock.

Large bottle small glass · 21-04-2020 11:34am

The Covid 19 phase!!

This was all meant to go to a processor, but I could be that processor for all of it yet!

Honorable mention for the 560xp. Two 1.2m3 bins per fill.

CJhaughey · 21-04-2020 4:36pm

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

The Covid 19 phase!!

This was all meant to go to a processor, but I could be that processor for all of it yet!

Honorable mention for the 560xp. Two 1.2m3 bins per fill.

For shame, no pic of the saw doing the work!

Large bottle small glass · 21-04-2020 4:43pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

For shame, no pic of the saw doing the work!

Post number 7, 3rd photo!

Accidentally · 21-04-2020 5:41pm

I have beech, hornbeam, hazel and holly all growing under ash. I'd imagine sycamore and norwegian maple would also have no issues

It really depends what you want out of it. Is it purely cash as soon as possible, or is the next crop for the kids or grandkids?

Large bottle small glass · 21-04-2020 8:01pm

Accidentally wrote: »

I have beech, hornbeam, hazel and holly all growing under ash. I'd imagine sycamore and norwegian maple would also have no issues

It really depends what you want out of it. Is it purely cash as soon as possible, or is the next crop for the kids or grandkids?

I have 14 acres of spruce also, so keeping the ash in broadleaf would be important.

The ash is regenerating nicely from stumps, along with taking out the best one for hurleys it would be perfect for continuous cover only for dieback.

Would any of the trees you mention not be destroyed by deer as saplings?

Holly, sessile oak, willow, white and blackthorn are the most common trees in ditches. Would birch work I wonder?

I remember planting maybe 50 trees for REPS a few years back and they were all flying until deer destroyed them all in one night.

Accidentally · 22-04-2020 8:36am

The only tree I would consider deer proof is yew, as it's poisonous. They don't like conifers or holly, but it depends on how desperate they are.

Thinning ash

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