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School patronage

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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I agree with you that it should not be but as long as the current legal structure remains in place in Irish education it is.

    The post you were replying to was about ETB schools fully owned by the state and not subject to an agreement with a church on religious instruction (some ETB schools are, due to historical amalgamations with religious patronage schools, crazy but true.)
    The evils of the 1998 Act are very clear now and the underlying outrage that is the whole "patron" system sails merrily on. In a new area parents should realise that there are huge advantages to not having RE taught in school: you get the same amount of teachers but they can all teach real subjects. It gives more choice at 2nd level and more options for kids be it in subjects or smaller classes. For example if there are 20 class groups in a school across 5 years and each group has to get 2-3 classes per week in RE that means 40-60 periods in all. That means the school has to set aside 1-2 teachers to do that from its allocation of teachers. If they could teach Maths then think of smaller groups or maybe bring in a new subject. Parents in a new area being "advised" about the type of school need to know that.

    All of this makes sense but between the bishops scaremongering parents, and RE teachers looking at redundancy kicking up stink, no divestment will happen - and religious groups are still allowed "bid" for patronage of new schools even though the country is overrun with the blasted things already.


    ...

    The yoga thing has been posted in the Hazards of Belief thread. Something in the water down Waaaaterford way perhaps :)

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    ETB schools are governed by the 1998 act also and have obligations to RE under previous legislation (they may or may not be fulfilling those). Divestment is for existing schools:I was talking exactly about situations where brand new schools were being founded. Parents might look less favourably on a school using its teacher allocation for RE if they understood the advantages of not having it. RE teachers who are permanent will be redeployed within I think 30 km of their home. RE teachers with no permanent job have no claim on a position anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There's no obligation on any school to teach RE unless the patron demands it. Some ETB schools don't even offer the state RE curriculum :)

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    There's no obligation on any school to teach RE unless the patron demands it. Some ETB schools don't even offer the state RE curriculum :)

    Yep. Very very few subjects must be offered. All the rest are up to the school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    There's no obligation on any school to teach RE unless the patron demands it. Some ETB schools don't even offer the state RE curriculum :)

    And the patron may well have and have a legally binding contract that it is to be delivered. The whole concept of "patronage" must be removed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    ‘Significant’ reforms aim to move focus of Catholic sacraments from schools
    The Archbishop of Dublin has announced “significant” reforms aimed at moving the focus of sacramental preparation away from schools and towards the family and to parishes.

    This will include preparations that take place outside school hours as the church seeks to move the emphasis off schools. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said training for the reform campaign, which will be implemented on a phased basis, should begin immediately.

    A consultation has been taking place throughout the Archdiocese in an effort, he said, “to strengthen the bond between family, parish and schools in preparing children for sacraments”. It is thought this process was a response to a sense that sacramental preparation, such as for first communion and confirmation, had become too school-focused.

    Dr Martin wrote to priests and parishes this week informing them that the Priests Council had endorsed a new approach to the sacraments which would be centred on “supporting parents in sharing faith with their children and that in time will see parishes assume responsibility for the preparation and celebration of all four sacraments”.

    In his letter he reminded priests that “more and more Catholic children today attend other than Catholic schools. The proposal is not something that will be accomplished overnight; it cannot however be put forever on the long finger. We must begin now.”

    “It will take some time to put in place an effective development of parish capacity to implement this initiative,” he wrote. “We need however to begin immediately with the preparation and training of voluntary lay catechists and the development of resource materials.”

    The changes will also raise the possibility of schools spending less time on sacramental preparation during school hours. Catholic schools are entitled to set aside up to 30 minutes of the day for faith formation, although teachers have said these preparations can take longer.

    Pilot programmes are planned to enable the preparations to be done outside of school hours, and the programme will be rolled out on a phased basis, depending on the resources available to each parish. The decision is the culmination of a process that began in September 2018 with the establishment of a sacraments review team, which led a consultation process that included an online survey which received 1800 responses.

    The review group was partially established in response to concerns that sacraments were running the risk of being turned in to social occasions rather than moments of faith.

    An implementation group is to be set up to examine a range of issues, including communicating with schools and parents, recruiting and training volunteers, as well as providing resources and finance for the transition.

    Good news - if it happens.

    NB when they're talking about 'four sacraments' it's baptism, first confession, first communion and confirmation.
    Baptism has never had anything to do with schools!!!

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    ‘Significant’ reforms aim to move focus of Catholic sacraments from schools



    Good news - if it happens.

    NB when they're talking about 'four sacraments' it's baptism, first confession, first communion and confirmation.
    Baptism has never had anything to do with schools!!!

    Oddly enough it does: theologically (which we can safely leave in the sure and certain knowledge that all sorts of voluminous posts will descend upon us) but also in baptisms and /or confirmations at later stages of schooling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    In an Irish context, where they demanded (until very recently) a baptismal cert before enrolment?

    Theology = bad fiction so let's not go there.

    Some less positive aspects mentioned in an RTE report:

    Dublin archdiocese embraces 'new approach' in preparing children for Communion
    "It also advocates a renewed relationship with Catholic schools in promoting Catholic ethos and in delivering the Grow in Love programme."
    The Archbishop said he was not catholic schools to remove religious education but said if you remove "the peak" education from second and sixth class there would be "a better allotment of religious education across primary school."

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Dr Martin wrote:
    It will take some time to put in place an effective development of parish capacity to implement this initiative [...]
    Seems to me that this boils down to resources:

    Where: can the church organize access to large buildings suitable for lecturing many people at once?
    Who: can the church find people with godological knowledge who might be prepared to lecture people in these large buildings?
    When: can the church and religious parents agree some predictable time during the week for these lectures to take place?

    Solve those problems, and Dr Martin's problems evaporate.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    Seems to me that this boils down to resources:

    Where: can the church organize access to large buildings suitable for lecturing many people at once?
    Who: can the church find people with godological knowledge who might be prepared to lecture people in these large buildings?
    When: can the church and religious parents agree some predictable time during the week for these lectures to take place?

    Solve those problems, and Dr Martin's problems evaporate.

    My slightly Machiavellian take on it is that Dr Martin has concocted a way to try to get some grown ups back into his churches. Catholic parents like the whole communion and confirmation shindig so this is a stick to get them in the church doors every now and again so they're allowed give their kids the big day out. Kids want it for the sake of the big payday, so the pressure is on the parents from two sides. I rather doubt those that aren't already regular church goers will be arsed buts its a tough call. Could be Dr Martin has just shot himself in the foot. I do hope he's wearing some of his patent steel toed boots ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Letter in the IT on this a few days ago:

    Sacramental teaching in schools

    Sir, – It would be fair and just if Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin matched his statement on sacramental-preparation being moved from school-responsibility to family-and parish-responsibility, with a clear direction from him, as patron of the vast majority of Dublin primary schools, to demand that all such schools immediately design and implement a comprehensive “opting-out of Catholic religious-education policy” for all non-religious and minority-religious children and teachers (Home News, December 4th). The current policy fundamentally abuses their human and constitutional rights to be free from indoctrination and daily exclusion and discrimination in his state-funded schools.

    He could take action today by way of a letter from his education secretariat along the lines of the assertion and urgency with which they, for example, unilaterally directed their schools to enact Catholic-first school enrolment policies in 2005 which required, in the end, state-legislation to dismantle. – Yours, etc,

    Dr FINTAN MCCUTCHEON,

    Swords, Co Dublin.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Paddy Monahan's (Education Equality) take on it:

    It’s self-serving for Church to move sacraments out of school hours

    The news that the Archbishop of Dublin has announced reforms around sacramental preparation in schools is to be welcomed. About 90 per cent of taxpayer-funded primary schools in Ireland are controlled by the Catholic Church and from junior infants to sixth class, half an hour every day is spent on religious indoctrination – not including prayers throughout the day. In those years when children prepare for confession, communion and confirmation, this ramps up significantly.

    The arguments in favour of moving sacramental preparation outside the school day vary, and many focus on the sheer amount of class time already devoted to religious indoctrination. Teachers complain of curriculum overload and parents note that almost as much time is spent on religious indoctrination in a standard week (at least two and a half hours) as on history, geography and science combined (three hours in total).

    However, these concerns do not appear to be central to this decision. The reforms come following a survey conducted by the Dublin archdiocese, and the motivation for change is to get families more actively involved, rather than to passively cede responsibility to schools. In other words, a religious organisation has made a decision relating to faith formation that aims to promote religious engagement. A pretty uncontroversial move, one would think, and that it is deemed newsworthy says much about the ongoing influence of the Catholic Church in State institutions such as our education system. Moreover, it surely merely reflects changes in Irish society – in 1993 more than 93 per cent of marriages in Ireland were Catholic, but by 2018 that figure was below 48 per cent.

    Carl O’Brien, in this newspaper, gave an excellent overview of the proposed changes. The observant reader might note that there was no mention of Minister for Education Joe McHugh or the Department of Education in his article. This is not an omission or fault on the part of The Irish Times education editor – it was a common factor in media reportage on this issue. The fact is, the Minister for Education has nothing to do with this decision. When it comes to religious indoctrination in our taxpayer-funded schools, the Minister’s view is that it is essentially none of his business.

    It is important to note that the plan to move sacramental preparation outside the classroom will not affect the daily 30 minutes of religious faith-formation that takes place in virtually every primary classroom in the country. Nor will it change the standard practice in these schools of segregating children from the “wrong” religious background for this period every day. That’s right, shockingly it is the norm throughout Ireland for children not of the Catholic faith to be singled out every day in the classroom from four years of age to sit alone at the back of the class while their peers receive faith-formation.

    Nothing the Archbishop has proposed will address this disgraceful practice. Nor should it be the job of the Archbishop to do so – although it would be welcome and make for a refreshing change (not to mention that he must surely feel morally compelled to take action).

    No, it is up to Minister for Education Joe McHugh to step up and do his job. The Constitution sets out the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school. How does the Minister ensure schools uphold this constitutional right? The Department of Education says it is a matter for each individual school – there is no system of oversight or inspection. So we end up with children segregated in the classroom on the basis of their religious status, absorbing every word of religious indoctrination, while simultaneously othered from their peers. All in an effort to supposedly uphold a constitutional right!

    What is being proposed for sacramental preparation is that children, parents and families can opt-in, should they choose to, after school hours. This blindingly obvious approach should apply to all religious indoctrination in taxpayer-funded schools and, indeed, is a logical, practical application of the Constitution’s provisions this area. It should not be left to the Archbishop to make this decision. The Minister must at last exert some influence over our taxpayer-funded schools by ending the systematic religious segregation and discrimination that has been allowed to fester for far too long. He must ensure that any religious indoctrination or faith-formation in our taxpayer-funded schools takes place outside school hours.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Retired school principal, Peter Gunning, takes aim at the RCC, and Bishop Alfie in particular.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teaching-sacraments-at-school-i-was-a-hypocrite-through-need-1.4108916


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    This came to mind recently when Bishop Alphonsus Cullinane wrote to the teachers and principals in his Waterford diocese advising them not to use religion class time to go Buddha-like and teach yoga, mindfulness and meditation. Down with that sort of thing, Ted?

    However, this was not an unreasonable request as Bishop Cullinane is the patron of these schools.

    It's an entirely unreasonable request when it is the taxpayer and not Cullinane's church which funds these schools. If he wants to call the tune he needs to pay the piper.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    And as we're endeavouring to remove undue religious influence from our school system I see that Trump is trying to shoehorn it back into the American school system. Is it just me or is right wing evangelical Christianity vying hard with fundamental Islam for the top spot in terms of worlds most obnoxious religion?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Educate together have done a bit of analysis of the party manifestos with respect to school choice, economic inequality, additional needs provision and school accommodation. Linky


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Giving FG way too much credit there imho

    400 multi/non-d schools by 2030 just isn't good enough and won't be achieved anyway because no divestment is happening.

    Atheist Ireland asked their questions, and several of the FG responses were "Fine Gael will protect the rights of parents to choose denominational education" - nothing about the right to avoid denominational education!

    In reality choice = balkanisation, ghettoisation, social stratification, discrimination, dissipation of public funds

    We need fewer bigger schools not more smaller ones

    We need to put an end to gender segregated education.

    Schools need to be neutral spaces treating everyone equally.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yes ideally religion would be taken out of schools, however, if the majority of people aren't on board with it, and it seems to be that way, then it isn't going to happen.
    while the majority of people continue to identify as being part of a religion that, lets face it, most of that majority probably are no more part of then a foot path and then use it when it suits for the day out then expect dominational schools to be the main provider of education.
    the people are responsible for what they get here in this day and age in relation to education and for the most part seem to be happy with the way things are unfortunately.
    if the people as a whole want religion out of schools then they are going to have to take the lead, the government aren't going to do anything while a sisable majority continue to tick the catholic box on the census form.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    The best gift I was given in school was my recognition of the existence of God and why it is important to put God first in life, instead of a mass produced mainstream media that is ultimately controlled by evil at the very top in this fallen world.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    The best gift I was given in school was my recognition of the existence of God and why it is important to put God first in life, instead of a mass produced mainstream media that is ultimately controlled by evil at the very top in this fallen world.

    Call me old fashioned, but I kind of like the idea of schools providing one with an education. Getting God instead smacks of subverted Dept of Education funding.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    smacl wrote: »
    Call me old fashioned, but I kind of like the idea of schools providing one with an education. Getting God instead smacks of subverted Dept of Education funding.

    Giving a young person a connection with their creator stands with them for life. Storing up knowledge in your short term memory, to spill it out in an exam, that's quickly forgotten doesn't stand to you for life. Nothing subverted. You either accept God or you reject God.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    [...] it is important to put God first [...] instead of a mass produced mainstream media that is ultimately controlled by evil [...]
    Malevolent, mass-produced nonsense could accurately describe the RCC.
    You either accept God or you reject God.
    Why did you reject the islamic god, and the jewish god, and all the Roman gods, and the Greek gods? Are you familiar enough with all of them to be able to reject them categorically, while unreservedly promoting yours?


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    robindch wrote: »
    Malevolent, mass-produced nonsense could accurately describe the RCC.Why did you reject the islamic god, and the jewish god, and all the Roman gods, and the Greek gods? Are you familiar enough with all of them to be able to reject them categorically, while unreservedly promoting yours?

    Through trusting in Christ and reading the bible is the best way I find to turn from our sinful nature and asking God to change our heart. Christ was the messiah that the Jews rejected, while every Muslim has that burning question inside them, have they done enough in this world to enter heaven, as it is based on good works. Therefore the Jewish and Islamic God is not for me and I believe there is not multiple gods so Greek and Roman God's are a no also.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Through trusting in Christ and reading the bible is the best way I find to turn from our sinful nature and asking God to change our heart. Christ was the messiah that the Jews rejected, while every Muslim has that burning question inside them, have they done enough in this world to enter heaven, as it is based on good works. Therefore the Jewish and Islamic God is not for me and I believe there is not multiple gods so Greek and Roman God's are a no also.

    Whatever floats your boat I guess. Personally, I find a Christian morality derived from an ancient Middle Eastern mindset objectionable on quite a few fronts when applied in a modern context and the unsupported belief in the supernatural entirely specious. Add to that the many abuses carried out by various churches on a worldwide basis both in the past and present, and I'm of the opinion that this is not something we should be inflicting on our children unless specifically requested to do so by our parents.

    Given the dramatic decline in church attendance in this country, I really don't see any point in continuing to preach at those who don't practice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The best gift I was given in school was my recognition of the existence of God and why it is important to put God first in life, instead of a mass produced mainstream media that is ultimately controlled by evil at the very top in this fallen world.

    LOL

    They gave you that "gift" in school? Not from your parents? I find that very hard to believe.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,866 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The idea that the majority of people are not in favour of non-denominational education is without basis.

    Several surveys carried out indcate the opposite. As do empty churches, declining baptism rates, rapidly declining rates of religious marriage...

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    The idea that the majority of people are not in favour of non-denominational education is without basis.
    Several surveys carried out indcate the opposite. As do empty churches, declining baptism rates, rapidly declining rates of religious marriage...

    sure, but it's not enough by the looks of it.
    the vast majority of people still identify themselves on the census form as catholic. yes it's stupid, yes it's ridiculous when a majority of that majority have no interest, but it is what it is and we are where we are, and in turn while that continues then the government will understandibly be of the belief that they want a religious education.
    until people stop pretending to be catholic, nothing will change.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    sure, but it's not enough by the looks of it.
    the vast majority of people still identify themselves on the census form as catholic. yes it's stupid, yes it's ridiculous when a majority of that majority have no interest, but it is what it is and we are where we are, and in turn while that continues then the government will understandibly be of the belief that they want a religious education.
    until people stop pretending to be catholic, nothing will change.

    Most likely another generation will change it. Whatever about tradition, I think the percentage of younger people in this country that actually believe in god is tiny. Catholicism in this country is just about hanging on by its teeth through dint of control of the national school system but given that most young teachers aren't religiously inclined and pretty much no clerical involvement, that isn't the ace it used to be either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    smacl wrote: »
    Whatever floats your boat I guess. Personally, I find a Christian morality derived from an ancient Middle Eastern mindset objectionable on quite a few fronts when applied in a modern context and the unsupported belief in the supernatural entirely specious. Add to that the many abuses carried out by various churches on a worldwide basis both in the past and present, and I'm of the opinion that this is not something we should be inflicting on our children unless specifically requested to do so by our parents.

    Given the dramatic decline in church attendance in this country, I really don't see any point in continuing to preach at those who don't practice.

    That's okay. Even the most prideful will have to meet their maker come judgement time when they leave this world.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    That's okay. Even the most prideful will have to meet their maker come judgement time when they leave this world.

    And that's an entirely prideful pontification. Hope it all works out for you and it doesn't turn out you've wasting too much time swallowing what most of this forum believe to be a rather miserable con.


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