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Housing Crisis and Immigration?

  • 15-05-2019 1:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    I see that theres another thread about the primetime episode last night on immigration, but I have my own specific experience/slant on it.

    Heres the episode on RTE player https://www.rte.ie/player/series/prime-time/SI0000000825?epguid=IH000368194

    Looking at the map they created for immigration numbers in Dublin was staggering. Actually hard to believe. Lots of areas where irish people are in the severe minority, with Dorset street in particular being only 7% irish.

    A few weeks ago a family member, a student, had three college mates turn up at the door late at night. Individually they had to leave their own accommodation because of the costs, and collectively they came up with the plan to "stay in the living room" of the family member. And if this last ditch plan didn't work out they would have to split back home to various parts of the country.

    Of course the family member wasn't on for it at all, because there was no plan, it was all indefinite. Desperate stuff, especially coming close to exams.

    So...

    Besides that little anecdote (amongst many!), and then the non-stop reminders of the housing crisis (especially Dublin)….how can anyone not link the subject of that primetime episode and the housing crisis together?

    It seems almost extraordinary that immigration is never linked to the housing crisis. But numbers are numbers, or at least they used to be!

    It feels like people are losing/have lost their minds. When did the obvious become so invisible? Is it just taboo in the extreme?

    I know there are many factors involved in the housing crisis, but my interpretation is that there is no bigger, glaring factor than the massive influx of people into Ireland/Dublin.

    Is there a bigger contributing factor to the housing crisis? Some would say there aren't enough houses being built, but whats the point if they will only be filled up immediately? Id be interested in hearing peoples opinions on this.
    Post edited by Sephiroth_dude on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,812 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The housing crisis is because we didn't build anything for nearly a decade.

    The other problem is that people looking for a council house only want to live next door to Mammy when people buying homes have to make do without Mammy.

    The rental crisis is because of government interference diving accidental and small landlords out by a biased legislation and RTB.

    I migration is a miniscule problem. There is hundreds of thousands of empty houses in the county.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    In order to practice political correctness, certain truths must die

    Beit preaching about the housing shortage while completely ignoring the large influx of immigrants or discussing " Me Too" issues while ignoring the fact that minorities are over represented when it comes to assault cases


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    To clarify, I said "whats the point of building more houses if they'll be filled up immediately?"

    What I meant was there is little point in building more housing when you have an infinite amount of people ready to fill them up. Building towards a sustainable number is fine. But it seems to me like there is no sustainability in mind here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The housing crisis is because we didn't build anything for nearly a decade.

    The other problem is that people looking for a council house only want to live next door to Mammy when people buying homes have to make do without Mammy.

    The rental crisis is because of government interference diving accidental and small landlords out by a biased legislation and RTB.

    I migration is a miniscule problem. There is hundreds of thousands of empty houses in the county.

    Im aware of these other factors, but taking the extreme case of dorset street for example, 7% being irish is far more important a factor than anything you listed above, in my opinion.

    And don't forget that (as mentioned in the episode), there are rapidly growing numbers of non-irish on those housing lists too. There was one guy talking about a new development of social housing of 80 units, and how he believes there should be a priority for irish people.

    Edit: Your point about empty housing is a good one. I was reading an article in the independent yesterday and I learned of a new term, "cuckoo" funds/investors. People were complaining (rightly) about outsiders buying property with no intention of living there, or even in the country. It doesn't explain all of the empty housing, of course, but I'd guess its a sizeable chunk. Besides that, if they are empty with lots of immigration, then they would presumably be empty with no immigration too...in other words its a negligible point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    beejee wrote: »
    To clarify, I said "whats the point of building more houses if they'll be filled up immediately?"

    What I meant was there is little point in building more housing when you have an infinite amount of people ready to fill them up. Building towards a sustainable number is fine. But it seems to me like there is sustainability in mind here.

    We should all live at the side of the road, but we would run out of road eventually. What do you suggest mass murder? We have bogs for disposal.

    Building Social housing is cheaper for the tax payer than buying at market rates to use as social housing. It's how private developers make money.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭Diceicle


    I thought it was Parnell that was only 7% white-irish - anyway, doesn't matter.
    As I said in the other thread - that could mean its 90% Polish in that area - I think most people automatically assume the area is 93% African when they hear that stat first.

    We need to do a couple of things:
    - we need to build Up and not out
    - we need to get a grip on REITs, Cuckoo Funds and Shadow Banks (David McWilliams talks about these on his new Podcast - worth a listen)
    - we need to tax the hole off of land horders and those holding derelict sites


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    We should all live at the side of the road, but we would run out of road eventually. What do you suggest mass murder? We have bogs for disposal.

    Youre completely missing my point, even after I thought I had clarified it.

    If theres no limit on the number of people, then there is no point in building houses. The housing crisis would be/is indefinite.

    You have to draw a line towards sustainability.

    Theres one house shared between two family's. Its less than ideal and causes problems. Solution = build another house. That's fine.

    The real problem is that you build another house only to have another two family's show up. You haven't solved anything


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Genesis CoolS Skirmish


    RTE reported on this last month
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0401/1039821-homelessness-dublin-city-council-report/

    Think it was mentioned once on a previous thread here, but that thread was quickly closed and comment removed.
    Don't mention the 21% factor whatever you do!


  • Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭ollkiller


    Is it 100,000 houses we have vacant in Ireland. And as was said no social housing built for 10 years. So to me it's blatantly obvious terrible government policies have led to the lack of affordable housing for people. So my anger would be directed at the government, not immigrants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,655 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Its the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about because you would be branded a racist or far right. Year to April 2018 immigration counted for 50% increase in our population compared to year to April 2017.

    UK got sick of it, we will eventually....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    There's a lovely Brazillian lady in work who cleans our toilets. Her English is improving every day.

    My boss is Puerto Rican.

    I was just handed my lunch by the canteen chef who likes to practice Irish phrases on everybody who visits the canteen. His daughter started learning Irish in school, so he's learning it to help her with homework. He's from Cameroon.

    I'd rather have these 3 people as neighbours than Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood of ill behaved, future criminal children.

    If we're dividing up the population based on arbitrary categories like whether or not they are scumbags, or whether they were born in a different country before deciding if they should be our neighbour, then I'm all for it!

    Do you play tennis OP? I think anybody who plays tennis should be evicted, made homeless and kicked out of the country.

    Am I doing this right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Diceicle wrote: »
    I thought it was Parnell that was only 7% white-irish - anyway, doesn't matter.
    As I said in the other thread - that could mean its 90% Polish in that area - I think most people automatically assume the area is 93% African when they hear that stat first.

    We need to do a couple of things:
    - we need to build Up and not out
    - we need to get a grip on REITs, Cuckoo Funds and Shadow Banks (David McWilliams talks about these on his new Podcast - worth a listen)
    - we need to tax the hole off of land horders and those holding derelict sites

    Well, whether theyre polish or Nigerian or American doesn't matter. We have a relatively tiny population, and most other countries in the world dwarf us. As long as these immigration numbers keep up (and it appears to be increasing quite rapidly), we're at nothing building anything. We cant house our own as it is.

    I agree about the other points, but I'm still thinking that these are less important compared to the immigration factor.

    There was a radio program a while ago talking with REIT funds from abroad. They generally consider 40 apartments a minimum investment. That prices out Irish people generally speaking, especially on new-build apartments. Then the massive competition for renting is severely exacerbated by immigration numbers...all money goes to the REITs. The whole thing is bonkers. Building more is not going to solve anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭El_Bee


    https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-refusals-ireland-4607803-May2019/

    There is no housing crisis, just an entitlement crisis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    There's a lovely Brazillian lady in work who cleans our toilets. Her English is improving every day.

    My boss is Puerto Rican.

    I was just handed my lunch by the canteen chef who likes to practice Irish phrases on everybody who visits the canteen. His daughter started learning Irish in school, so he's learning it to help her with homework. He's from Cameroon.

    I'd rather have these 3 people as neighbours than Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood of ill behaved, future criminal children.

    If we're dividing up the population based on arbitrary categories like whether or not they are scumbags, or whether they were born in a different country before deciding if they should be our neighbour, then I'm all for it!

    Do you play tennis OP? I think anybody who plays tennis should be evicted, made homeless and kicked out of the country.

    Am I doing this right?

    The point you may be missing is that Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood is in ADDITION to Miguel, Ivanka and THEIR ever growing brood.

    And as someone else mentioned in another thread, the family reunification thing has an average of 20 people being petitioned to join each individual. And in one case 70. Deco and Jacinta may have plenty of time in the sack, but they aren't going to add 20+ people to the country in the space of a couple years :P

    Its numbers, nothing more.

    Also, I'd like to point out the obvious, that there is nothing "arbitrary" about distinguishing people from different parts of the planet in relation to a specific, localised problem. You seem to have no problem doing it yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Genesis CoolS Skirmish


    EU migration is perfectly legal and fine (within reason), the 21% factor in the Dublin region relates directly to 'non-EU' migration.

    Expect the situation to worsen after brexit, May's twiddling of thumbs will likely lead to TBP winning or doing well in their upcoming elections.
    Their next 2019 PM (Farage) will want it hard, very hard and fast.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    El_Bee wrote: »
    https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-refusals-ireland-4607803-May2019/

    There is no housing crisis, just an entitlement crisis.

    Homelessness and the "housing Crisis" need to be separated here. There is some wonky stuff going on with homelessness to some extent.

    But housing in general, the extortionate prices and rents are no figments of imagination. Maybe I should tell those students that lost their accommodation that they have an entitlement problem? They can change their attitude to produce money out of thin air :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    ollkiller wrote: »
    Is it 100,000 houses we have vacant in Ireland. And as was said no social housing built for 10 years. So to me it's blatantly obvious terrible government policies have led to the lack of affordable housing for people. So my anger would be directed at the government, not immigrants.

    If it were simply a case of available building, then why was there no housing crisis during the recession? Where did the massive demand come from once we magically became attractive to outsiders again (from individuals to corporations)?

    Its not anger, by the way, its worry. And yes, the blame is entirely on the government. However, people should recognise that immigration is the biggest factor in the housing crisis, and bring that recognition to elections.

    I'm happy to have my opinion changed, but I'm not seeing anything that trumps immigration as the greatest factor in housing problems. Or another way to put it, immigration needs to be prioritised in order for any other change to have an effect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    EU migration is perfectly legal and fine (within reason), the 21% factor in the Dublin region relates directly to 'non-EU' migration.

    Expect the situation to worsen after brexit, May's twiddling of thumbs will likely lead to TBP winning or doing well in their upcoming elections.
    Their next 2019 PM (Farage) will want it hard, very hard and fast.

    Dirty bugger that Farage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Genesis CoolS Skirmish


    Dirty bugger that Farage.

    All while in his traditional beer pose. WillHill have today put his TBParty short (at 5/1) to win the most seats in any next general election.

    Time to panic, and build more houses/tents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Its the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about because you would be branded a racist or far right. Year to April 2018 immigration counted for 50% increase in our population compared to year to April 2017.

    UK got sick of it, we will eventually....

    It may be the elephant in the room, but surely even the dogs in the street must be questioning their own observed reality.

    Its not hard to make the simple, reasonable, logical link that youre getting lashed out of it by rent each month, yet the place is getting busier with non-irish people by the day.

    The whole thing is a disgrace. And it has nothing to do with the colour of skin or different origin of people. Or maybe you can be racist against the entire planet nowadays, Ted. Theres no fake scaremongering about numbers, they are what they are.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,325 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    ollkiller wrote: »
    Is it 100,000 houses we have vacant in Ireland. And as was said no social housing built for 10 years. So to me it's blatantly obvious terrible government policies have led to the lack of affordable housing for people. So my anger would be directed at the government, not immigrants.

    People seem to have such short memories.
    In the last ten years we were amidst bankrupt and beholden to the IMF.
    Covent policy is irrelevant when there is no money to pay for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    There's a lovely Brazillian lady in work who cleans our toilets. Her English is improving every day.

    My boss is Puerto Rican.

    I was just handed my lunch by the canteen chef who likes to practice Irish phrases on everybody who visits the canteen. His daughter started learning Irish in school, so he's learning it to help her with homework. He's from Cameroon.

    I'd rather have these 3 people as neighbours than Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood of ill behaved, future criminal children.

    If we're dividing up the population based on arbitrary categories like whether or not they are scumbags, or whether they were born in a different country before deciding if they should be our neighbour, then I'm all for it!

    Do you play tennis OP? I think anybody who plays tennis should be evicted, made homeless and kicked out of the country.

    Am I doing this right?

    Why do we need to import people from Brazil who can't speak the language to clean the toilets?? There is a huge EU that we have access to their workforce. Or Cameroonian canteen chefs?? Why and how are we importing unskilled workers that we have no need for??


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Obviously immigration contributes to population growth which creates housing demand. But I fail to see which policy can be used to address it other than identifying a convenient "cause" to be blamed and then doing nothing to solve the issue. The housing issue, that is.
    Placing immigrants on a different housing list may sound like a good idea as long as they keep the separate immigrant list at the revenue. Oh, wait, there is none, same tax should means same benefits, right?
    Demand in Dublin is driven by economical factors, that is the real cause, growth and high employment. This can only be fixed by addressing supply, not reducing demand. Or it will fix itself at the next recession, so be careful what you wish for :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Why do we need to import people from Brazil who can't speak the language to clean the toilets?? There is a huge EU that we have access to their workforce. Or Cameroonian canteen chefs?? Why and how are we importing unskilled workers that we have no need for??

    Its all ridiculous of course.

    That poster is ascribing emotional feelings to people he knows NOT from here, versus imaginary irish people he doesn't know. It has nothing to do with reality in the slightest.

    Its a huge problem when people rely upon feelings versus facts. The issue of the thread is the numbers of people ("extra" people by virtue of immigration, in relation to numbers looking for housing)

    Youd wonder how people who believe such things evaluate reality when the huge mortgage has to be paid, or the huge rent paid, or the childrens rent or what have you. Total dissonance. Must be very confusing!

    Theres only so long you can ignore reality, no matter how much youd "like" it to be different :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 348 ✭✭ifElseThen


    https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9_21267543_83_08-11-2017_

    Average no. of applications for family members under the Family Reunification provisions = 20.
    The largest application being for 70 family members. Significant and unquantifiable impacts on the provision of housing, education, welfare supports.

    Minister of State, David Stanton


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Cordell wrote: »
    Obviously immigration contributes to population growth which creates housing demand. But I fail to see which policy can be used to address it other than identifying a convenient "cause" to be blamed and then doing nothing to solve the issue. The housing issue, that is.
    Placing immigrants on a different housing list may sound like a good idea as long as they keep the separate immigrant list at the revenue. Oh, wait, there is none, same tax should means same benefits, right?
    Demand in Dublin is driven by economical factors, that is the real cause, growth and high employment. This can only be fixed by addressing supply, not reducing demand. Or it will fix itself at the next recession, so be careful what you wish for :)

    Its true, theres little point in identifying a problem only to have nothing done about it.

    But my wider point is that the problem isn't recognised in the first place. You cant fix a problem if you don't "know" it exists.

    There are a load of policies and plans that could be put in place to fix the housing crisis. My opinion is that none of it will work unless you address the root cause.

    The root cause is too many people. More specifically, there are too many people readily available to confound any attempted solution. If we built an entire new city, it would be filled up within 2 years, and I would confidently wager that the majority would not be irish people. A hypothetical scenario, of course.

    As mentioned in that primetime episode (linked in the first post), someone mentions the potential fallout if (its when!) the country gets into a downturn and competition for everything increases exponentially for whats left in the country. That's when the whole issue of "rightful entitlement" will come to a fore.

    That will be interesting!

    Also, I don't agree in the slightest that immigrants (no matter from where) should be put on housing lists at all. Theres already a hotbed of contention about social housing for irish people, for non-irish people its just absolute madness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Why do we need to import people from Brazil who can't speak the language to clean the toilets?? There is a huge EU that we have access to their workforce. Or Cameroonian canteen chefs?? Why and how are we importing unskilled workers that we have no need for??

    We obviously do have a need for them...

    Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Genesis CoolS Skirmish


    Add in the factor of job replacement (for all low-skilled occupations), circa 40% of these jobs will be gone by 2030.

    Maybe some of the non-eu folks with very basic english or education, can pick up theoretical quantum machine scripting for the new ai-auto toilet cleaner and burger flipping 'bots.
    2030+ will likely see cashless-UBI, foodbanks, soupkitchens, gated communities (only for the select few of course) otherwise it's tent cities and 'pod living' for the rest.

    On the plus side automation will improve basic standards of living, and clean water will become an important and still accessible asset in NW Europe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    beejee wrote: »
    If we built an entire new city, it would be filled up within 2 years, and I would confidently wager that the majority would not be irish people.

    Stay out of the bookies!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    beejee wrote: »
    The point you may be missing is that Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood is in ADDITION to Miguel, Ivanka and THEIR ever growing brood.

    And as someone else mentioned in another thread, the family reunification thing has an average of 20 people being petitioned to join each individual. And in one case 70. Deco and Jacinta may have plenty of time in the sack, but they aren't going to add 20+ people to the country in the space of a couple years :P

    Its numbers, nothing more.

    Also, I'd like to point out the obvious, that there is nothing "arbitrary" about distinguishing people from different parts of the planet in relation to a specific, localised problem. You seem to have no problem doing it yourself.
    But Miguel Ivanka etc will follow the traditional immigrant path and try to improve their circumstances and maybe even buy a house.
    Deco will continue to bleed the system and Jacinta will be happy as long as she has a house "near me Ma and me sisters"


This discussion has been closed.
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