If all cyclists waited at the red light...

07Lapierre · 09-08-2018 1:12pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

It is, unless there a cycle track or shared space sign. Who's going to enforce it when there's no-one around, and who is being inconvienced?

Just curious...If you were caught rideing a bike on the pavement... would you pay the fine or contest it?

silverharp · 09-08-2018 1:20pm

Commuting I'd tend to obey the lights through D4 and D6, as I hit injun country out past Crumlin I would break some so long as there is no danger. A lot of the time though you can lead and lag the lights so its not like you end up stopping that often anyway. there are one or 2 large junctions where I feel safer getting a bit of lead on the traffic especially if there is a large truck beside or behind me.

Lambay island · 09-08-2018 1:28pm

Someone mentioned it above but the only ones i would break when there is a sensor that doesnt recognise the weight of the bike. There are two out my way that you could be waiting for 5 minutes for a car to come for a green light if you didn't break them- poor design. Of all the people I see breaking lights on bikes a massive percentage of them are causing no issues to anyone else and quite often doing it for their own protection which i get. I tend to try to get out in front and anticipate the change to green and shoot off ahead of the cars once clear(hardly ever clear though as one to 2 vehicles break every red light at the end)
Yesterday I did witness a deliveroo cyclist on dame street not slowing down towards a ped crossing on dame street and gave an awful fright to an elderly couple crossing on a green man. As they stopped and said something to him he shouted at them and cycled thru. It was so needless as all he had to do was slow a little even if he wasnt going to stop and let them past. Always a few arseh0les out there.

doozerie · 09-08-2018 1:35pm

C3PO wrote: »

I just wonder do they always practice what they preach?

Yes.

But I make mistakes/bad decision too. I am under no illusions that I am anything other than an imperfect person, which means I (like everyone else) am only ever one bad decision away from being at least as much of a problem/arsehole/danger as the worst offenders I see on the roads.

I have to constantly remind myself of that when I'm tempted to break a red light, cycle on the footpath, break the speed limit while driving, etc. And I am tempted frequently, as I'm sure everyone is. It's hard work resisting those urges, I'm as selfish as anyone else and am more than capable of plucking from the air ludicrous self-serving justification for all sorts of stupid and/or dangerous behaviour on my part, but I consider the effort of resisting those urges as simply a necessary part of being a member of society - I don't need to like it, I just have to lump it.

So you may interpret my post above as being "holier than thou", but it's actually a plea for everyone, and that includes me, to take more responsibility on the roads.

Dismiss that if you like, but remember that if I decide to shirk myself of that responsibility, I could be the person that collides with you or someone you know, the next time I give in to that desire to ride on the footpath, break the red light, or overtake dangerously while driving just because I'm in a hurry. You probably don't want that. And neither do I, to be honest, I have no desire to live with the guilt of having harmed someone just because I willingly made a bad choice.

silverharp · 09-08-2018 1:37pm

Lambay island wrote: »

Someone mentioned it above but the only ones i would break when there is a sensor that doesnt recognise the weight of the bike....

I havnt seen these, do you have a link or describe what they look like?

CorMc · 09-08-2018 1:39pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

It is, unless there a cycle track or shared space sign. Who's going to enforce it when there's no-one around, and who is being inconvienced?

Was more just curious than anything! I've nothing against people cycling slowly on the footpath. I do take issue with cyclists running red lights. (Road biker and casual mountainbiker myself. Have a few too many bikes!)

doozerie · 09-08-2018 1:42pm

silverharp wrote: »

I havnt seen these, do you have a link or describe what they look like?

They are usually only visible as a patched rectangle on the road at a junction. They aren't triggered by weight though, they detect metal. On a bike you sometimes have to pass over a specific part of them to trigger them, and even then there are some that a bike doesn't trigger at all.

There are several on my commute that only trigger if you roll over a very narrow/specific part of them, and a couple that don't seem to ever trigger when I am on the bike (but trigger every time when I am driving). The right (southbound) turn at Yellow House pub in Rathfarnham is one of the latter.

doozerie · 09-08-2018 1:54pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

It is, unless there a cycle track or shared space sign. Who's going to enforce it when there's no-one around, and who is being inconvienced?

No-one is being inconvenienced. Until someone is.

As one example, there are plenty of instances of people being hit by cars because the driver "didn't see them". It happens that cyclists hit people too, in any such collisions that I've seen happen I'm pretty sure that at least one of the parties would argue that they didn't see the other.

With the extremely rare exception people don't willingly collide with other (road) users, it typically happens because someone made a mistake knowingly or otherwise. Personally I don't want to be the person saying "I'm sorry, I just didn't see you, are you okay?" (I've been there, it sucks!) so I make every effort to ensure I don't create circumstances where the chances of that scenario arising are increased.

I don't always succeed, but I'm certain that my life has been made easier (by my posing less of a danger to others and therefore feeling less like an arsehole afterwards if something does happen) for trying.

09-08-2018 1:55pm

silverharp wrote: »

I havnt seen these, do you have a link or describe what they look like?

They can sometimes have them at the exit of housing estates onto main roads, like here

There is another one at the junction of Marlborough St and Cathal Brugha st when travelling the same direction as the LUAS. It will only trigger when a car or tram goes over it.

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 2:00pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Just curious...If you were caught rideing a bike on the pavement... would you pay the fine or contest it?

I'd just pay it. Though a minor part of using good sight lines to see if pedestrians are around includes looking around for the Peelers.

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 2:05pm

doozerie wrote: »

No-one is being inconvenienced. Until someone is.

Oh yeah, if there were blind bends pr alleyways off to one side I would just wheel the bike. But the bit of footpath I use is about 20m long, straight and is surround by a flat expanse of grass. You really can see people from a long distance away. And it's uphill. Given that I'm usually going up that hill on a 40kg cargo bike with payload of 40+kg of children, I really am not going any faster than someone walking.

Anyway, it's one of my very few infractions, it makes my life slightly easier, doesn't seem to affect other people (pedestrians incredulously thank me when I dismount, which is a bit sad), so I'm sticking with it.

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 2:06pm

doozerie wrote: »

They are usually only visible as a patched rectangle on the road at a junction.

Once you become aware of them you see them everywhere in suburban Dublin!

C3PO · 09-08-2018 2:07pm

doozerie wrote: »

They are usually only visible as a patched rectangle on the road at a junction. They aren't triggered by weight though, they detect metal. On a bike you sometimes have to pass over a specific part of them to trigger them, and even then there are some that a bike doesn't trigger at all.

There are several on my commute that only trigger if you roll over a very narrow/specific part of them, and a couple that don't seem to ever trigger when I am on the bike (but trigger every time when I am driving). The right (southbound) turn at Yellow House pub in Rathfarnham is one of the latter.

There's one at the junction of Stonebridge Road and Dublin Road in Shankill that's very close to the white "stop" line. It's a regular occurrence that cars don't pull up to the line and the traffic can sit there until somebody local gets out of their car and walks down the line of traffic to tell the 1st car to pull up a bit!! No idea whether a bike will trigger it .... refer to my post above!!

Wishbone Ash · 09-08-2018 2:08pm

I stop at red lights 99% of the time.

The one I occasionally break is the one on the street where I live. I only do so when out very early in the morning as the induction loop won't work with a carbon bike. I could wait around until a motor vehicle comes along or I could walk through the junction - but I don't.

If that makes me holier than thou, so be it.

site_owner · 09-08-2018 2:10pm

i thought this forum advocated queueing on the left in single file

Wishbone Ash · 09-08-2018 2:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

...There is another one at the junction of Marlborough St and Cathal Brugha .....

They are at most junctions.

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 2:12pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Just curious...If you were caught rideing a bike on the pavement... would you pay the fine or contest it?

This is slightly different from being fined for breaking a red, now I think about it. It's not a FPN offence (because of the blind-eye treatment of minors cycling on footpaths), so I'd have to go to court rather than get a fine in the post.

EDIT: Now I think about it again, I'd probably get a fixed-charge notice for "driving a pedal cycle without reasonable consideration."

Chips Lovell · 09-08-2018 2:15pm

The thing about ignoring the law and instead adopting your own interpretation of what's "dangerous" and what's "safe", is that it's entirely subjective.

Pretty much everyone who breaks road traffic law does so because they think its safe to do so. Nobody intentionally does something they think is dangerous.

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 2:15pm

C3PO wrote: »

There's one at the junction of Stonebridge Road and Dublin Road and Shankill that's very close to the white "stop" line. It's a regular occurrence that cars don't pull up to the line and the traffic can sit there until somebody local gets out of their car and walks down the line of traffic to tell the 1st car to pull up a bit!! No idea whether a bike will trigger it .... refer to my post above!!

I've been like Marcel Marceau on my bike at the head of the queue of traffic, trying to find some kind of arm gestures that says: "Please come closer; I can't trigger the induction coil to change the lights"

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 2:18pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing about ignoring the law and instead adopting your own interpretation of what's "dangerous" and what's "safe", is that it's entirely subjective.

Oddly enough, the pedestrian entrance to my estate splits in two directions. In the direction I go, it's got great sight lines, it leads quickly to a quiet road, but it doesn't have any bicycle signage.

In the other direction, it has bike signage, and it leads straight to a blind bend, shared with pedestrians, and bikes coming the other way.

In my direction, cycling is definitely safer, and illegal; in the other direction, it's definitely got a much higher likelihood of collision, including with elderly pedestrians who are heading to the Luas, and it's legal.

I think the path that goes my way is a later addition, where they've paved over a pedestrian desire line worn in the grass. In that case, it probably never occurred to them they could join up my estate with the cycle lane at the bottom of the hill.

magicbastarder · 09-08-2018 2:18pm

site_owner wrote: »

i thought this forum advocated queueing on the left in single file

This forum is not a hive mind though.

Wishbone Ash · 09-08-2018 2:31pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing about ignoring the law and instead adopting your own interpretation of what's "dangerous" and what's "safe", is that it's entirely subjective.....

Yup - many lads used to think they were perfectly safe driving home after 6 or 7 pints of porter.

tomasrojo wrote: »

I've been like Marcel Marceau on my bike at the head of the queue of traffic, trying to find some kind of arm gestures that says: "Please come closer; I can't trigger the induction coil to change the lights"

I do the same at the lights on my street and talk to the motorists if I can. The amount that are not aware of induction loops is staggering.

doozerie · 09-08-2018 2:52pm

C3PO wrote: »

It's a regular occurrence that cars don't pull up to the line and the traffic can sit there until somebody local gets out of their car and walks down the line of traffic to tell the 1st car to pull up a bit!!

At the Yellow House junction I mentioned earlier I've been at the head of the queue in the right-turning lane in the past. Some seemingly considerate drivers would stay well back from my bike but were stopped short of the sensor as a result.

In my early "surely no bastard would install a sensor that can't triggered by a bicycle, for fcuk sake!" naivety days, I'd do a curious dance of rolling my bike back and forth over the sensor trying to find "the spot". Much like a drunk fella searching for a clitoris, I imagine.

When that failed I'd roll the bike into the yellow box in the middle of the junction (while the light was green for oncoming traffic and traffic going straight on), and turn around to motion to the motorist at the head of the queue to roll forward into the sensor. Their facial expression would generally change from amusement, to impatience, to annoyance ("Don't you tell me what to do, etc."), probably much like the facial expressions of the female partner of that drunk fella.

The lights would change to red, and I'd be left stranded there in the middle of the junction, smack in the path of the cars queued on the road to my right who now have a green light. More annoyance, and I'd have to break the red light to make my right turn and get out of their way, cue some "fcuking cyclists, breaking red lights!" reactions (reasonably enough, in fairness).

C3PO · 09-08-2018 2:53pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing about ignoring the law and instead adopting your own interpretation of what's "dangerous" and what's "safe", is that it's entirely subjective.

Pretty much everyone who breaks road traffic law does so because they think its safe to do so. Nobody intentionally does something they think is dangerous.

But in my opinion there are many occasions where breaking a red light is no more "dangerous" and very often a lot safer than turning right at a Stop sign or cycling through a crossroads on a rural road! The fact that the light is red does not make the manoeuvre inherently dangerous!

Kav0777 · 09-08-2018 3:02pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

This forum is not a hive mind though.

"We are all individuals..."

"I'm not"

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 3:07pm

These threads definitely need some kind of reference to philosophy and law. I remember an episode of The Philosopher's Arms on BBC Radio 4 that dealt with whether we should always obey the law, but I can't remember much about it now. Not sure half an hour of a light-hearted radio show is a sufficient introduction to the subject.

Now I think about it, there were two other laws I didn't bother with, and unlike the footpath cycling law, it wasn't just very occasional that I disregarded the laws: the bicycle bell law, and the mandatory cycle track one. In the latter case, I very much was making up my own mind that not only was it safe for me to use the road instead, that it was at least as safe or safer than using the cycle track.

buffalo · 09-08-2018 3:58pm

C3PO wrote: »

But in my opinion there are many occasions where breaking a red light is no more "dangerous" and very often a lot safer than turning right at a Stop sign or cycling through a crossroads on a rural road! The fact that the light is red does not make the manoeuvre inherently dangerous!

Aye, but everyone draws the line slightly differently. Some politicians would have you believe that you're a better driver after a couple of pints. All those people who park on double-yellows or along continuous white lines because they'll only be there for five minutes, sure what's the danger? I've had people swear blind that they can use their phone safely while driving, sure who I am to judge?

We picked a set of rules to keep everyone safe and the roads system working for all. Lobby for changes all you want, but in the meantime follow the rules. Being inconvenienced does not allow for exceptions, though I'd argue being in danger does.

Chips Lovell · 09-08-2018 4:03pm

C3PO wrote: »

But in my opinion...

That's exactly my point. Everyone has an opinion, and despite the fact that not two opinions are exactly the same, everyone sure that their opinion is the right one.

Lambay island · 09-08-2018 4:03pm

doozerie wrote: »

They are usually only visible as a patched rectangle on the road at a junction. They aren't triggered by weight though, they detect metal. On a bike you sometimes have to pass over a specific part of them to trigger them, and even then there are some that a bike doesn't trigger at all.

There are several on my commute that only trigger if you roll over a very narrow/specific part of them, and a couple that don't seem to ever trigger when I am on the bike (but trigger every time when I am driving). The right (southbound) turn at Yellow House pub in Rathfarnham is one of the latter.

yes this was one I was actually referring to and there are two more further off that willbrook road towards(one from whitechurch road). I never realised it was a specific spot you had to go over, I did notice it occasionally does go green for me but I had put it down to a big breakfast and not having the morning toilet visit yet

. Everyday is a school day

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 4:05pm

But what about when cycle tracks were mandatory to use. Did everyone here use them? Or does everyone have a bell on their bike? I mean, if you are doing something that has a high likelihood of killing or seriously injuring people, it's different from not having a legally mandated device for going "ping".

(This is just a general point. People shouldn't break red lights, which is more the subject of this thread.)

If all cyclists waited at the red light...

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