Cats

Grolschevik · 29-07-2020 1:51pm

dodderangler wrote: »

You should take your own advice. Do you go out and view what they do?? I've seen it personally. Ive seen the damage done. I've talked ti the farmers and they've told me they've even got them on the cameras.

I really can't see a domestic cat doing much damage to farm livestock. Would those cameras be picking up mink instead?

Cats also kill rats; a service to most farms. I've known cats to 'specialise' in rodents and ignore birds. And I've known cats to die from eating rats poisoned indiscriminately. The same goes for bird raptors and carrion eaters.

Grolschevik · 29-07-2020 1:59pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Have not heard this before, but I have seen cat rescue organisations recommending keeping cats indoors because it can be safer for them, both from a physical injury and a disease viewpoint. Our two, and our last cat, have all been indoor cats.

I've heard it. But if they're used to being indoors from kittenhood, it's less of an issue. It can be very stresssful for cats that are used to being outside to be confined, Indeed many vets recommend that cats only be kept totally indoors if they are happy to be.

Anyway, to go back to the very OP, the reason you see more cats at night is because that's when they evolved to prefer being out and about. (Actually, during crepuscular hours).

Grolschevik · 29-07-2020 2:05pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

, a cat is an artifically-introduced predator and not a natural one.

native/natural predator will hunt to feed and that's it, but the same is not true for cats.

How long does an animal have to exist in an ecosystem before it stops being "artificially introduced" and "non-native"? I've head the same claims about magpies, for example. Usually from hunters/trappers.

It's not like cats only got here in the '40s!

c.p.w.g.w · 29-07-2020 2:11pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Have not heard this before, but I have seen cat rescue organisations recommending keeping cats indoors because it can be safer for them, both from a physical injury and a disease viewpoint. Our two, and our last cat, have all been indoor cats.

It's called FIC... if cats are stimulated it's less likely to happen...my vet was telling me about it when we were getting ours neutered & sprayed...

Markcheese · 29-07-2020 2:12pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

How long does an animal have to exist in an ecosystem before it stops being "artificially introduced" and "non-native"? I've head the same claims about magpies, for example. Usually from hunters/trappers.

It's not like cats only got here in the '40s!

Rabbits aren't exactly native either ...
Think there are still wild cats in Scotland.. pretty rare ( not feral cats ) ,so I'm guessing they wouldn't do so well in the wild on this side of the world if humans didn't keep feeding them , and breeding a reserve population to keep reintroducing to go feral ..

dodderangler · 29-07-2020 2:17pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Rabbits aren't exactly native either ...
Think there are still wild cats in Scotland.. pretty rare ( not feral cats ) ,so I'm guessing they wouldn't do so well in the wild on this side of the world if humans didn't keep feeding them , and breeding a reserve population to keep reintroducing to go feral ..

Wild cats are not like feral correct. And are very rare. The original cat.
Much like a pig if it gets loose. A pig turns wild if it gets loose. Plenty of documents about it. Even dogs do the same. Theyll go wild and enough will form a pack like a wolf pack.

dodderangler · 29-07-2020 2:20pm

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

'Seagulls' consist of 7+ species and they're protected because of the huge declines most of those species have undergone in recent decades. Suffice it to say that your observation that "there's enough to start shooting or trapping them now" won't be taken above the data gathered by actual experts in the field :rolleyes: Also sheer numbers aren't an argument for trapping or shooting anything.

I'm on your side for the mostpart with the cat thing, but jesus christ you sure know how to undermine your own arguments with an ill-informed trigger-happy attitude!

Also no animal kills because it enjoys it, and again you're highlighting your own lack of knowledge and assumptions that only undermine the decent points you're trying to make. A friend of mine who used to do a huge amount of predator control as well as recreational hunting explained it to me. In nature, a predator generally has the chance to catch one prey item and while it does that, the rest of the flock or herd or whatever flies or runs away - so predator gets prey, flock/herd etc survives. So by virtue of the lack of other animals around, that "kill switch" in the predators brain gets switched off and it can start eating or moving the prey so that in can eat it in peace. In the case of sheep in a field, or chickens in a coop, the rest of the flock don't have that chance to escape - so they're all standing there, and as a result the predators "kill switch" doesn't get turned off and it'll go kill the next thing, and the next thing etc. So it's not for "fun" and it's not because they're "bloodthirsty", it's the fact that they're encountering artificial situations (prey in a confined location) that they haven't evolved long-enough with to deal with appropriately. Not that there's any excuse for someone allowing their dog to kill sheep, but the argument that it or any other carnivore/predator "enjoys" killing is just an idea people get in their heads to justify demonising something.

Surplus killing is a known study of animals that kill for pleasure or purposely because they can.
Documented in plenty of animals not just pack animals. 12 wolves took out 37 elk in the space of a weekend in Canada. A rogue leopard took out 48 springbok on a 4 day stint. Surplus killing is more common than you think.

dodderangler · 29-07-2020 2:21pm

Another case of it
19 elk in one night. https://www.google.ie/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/news/2016/03/160325-wolf-pack-kills-19-wolves-surplus-killing-wyoming
Animals do kill for sport and dont bother eating alot of it

Eddie B · 29-07-2020 2:32pm

I am actually shocked that people on this forum are OK with allowing cats to roam the countryside to kill our native wildlife species. CATCH, NEUTER, RELEASE. What a load of bull. CATCH, and PUT TO SLEEP, is the only way to deal with this menace. Shame on those who turn a blind eye.

O by all means, have whatever pet you want. Be it cat, dog, goldfish, or whatever. BUT keep them on your property, or on a leash. No it's or buts, just be a responsible pet owner.

Grolschevik · 29-07-2020 2:48pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Rabbits aren't exactly native either ...
Think there are still wild cats in Scotland.. pretty rare ( not feral cats ) ,so I'm guessing they wouldn't do so well in the wild on this side of the world if humans didn't keep feeding them , and breeding a reserve population to keep reintroducing to go feral ..

Much the same could be said about humans!

Grolschevik · 29-07-2020 2:54pm

Eddie B wrote: »

I am actually shocked that people on this forum are OK with allowing cats to roam the countryside to kill our native wildlife species. CATCH, NEUTER, RELEASE. What a load of bull. CATCH, and PUT TO SLEEP, is the only way to deal with this menace. Shame on those who turn a blind eye.
.

A load of hyperbolics. The point is that, no matter what people believe, the evidence suggests that their impact on wild birds is negligible.

The 25 million 'surplus' Blue Tits each year I referenced in my first post in this thread? The ones who die anyway, and the ones who have to die to keep the Blue Tit population in equilibrium? That's in Britain alone.

Again. Negligible impact.

o1s1n · 29-07-2020 3:17pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Cats can develop bladder issues as a result of stress which is very common among house cats...

My cats are left out for 4-6 hours most days, they have caught a number of birds, between them, have been able to take the birds off them alive in most cases and had to bring a few to rescues whom I donated a few Bob too...

Pretty certain that the use of roundup in gardens has done more damage than cats, with loss of biodiversity of insects etc...and folks use that for everything (I too was once guilty)

No bladder problems here with my two or any of my friends indoor cats, first I've hard of it.

Even if so, I think it's better for their health than risking them getting mauled by a dog/run over by a car/eating something poisonous/falling off something high and breaking a limb. Indoor cats statistically live longer lives.

I don't want to be getting down on another cat owner, but you really do have no idea what your cats have done while out in the wild. You might have taken a few birds off of them, but they may have left a trail of destruction through nests and other birds that you'll never know about.

I'm not sure if you remember, but when I was growing up as a kid, people would let their dogs out to roam about the place. That was put a stop to and looking back, the idea now sounds ridiculous.

I'd say some day soon we'll be thinking the same way about pet cats.

Choc Chip · 29-07-2020 3:20pm

You can't eliminate feral cats. This study documents the 19 years it took to eliminate them on an island in the indian ocean: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/38d3/7165bef076fa5180e531e2141116cac49cbf.pdf It's madness to think that you could eradicate them in Ireland where there is a population of house cats that are allowed to stray and breed with the feral population.

Also, the vacuum effect occurs when you remove a colony, with other cats moving into the area to repopulate it and exploit the resources that attracted the first colony.

Numerous studies have shown that TNR is, long term, the best way to reduce numbers. There are links to various studies here: http://www.animaladvocacy.ie/tnr/scientific-evidence/key-scientific-studies-on-trap-neuter-return/

I do agree that if people want to have a pet cat, it should be kept inside. I don't understand the hatred shown to them though. The ferals I know are scrawny, half starved things.

dodderangler · 29-07-2020 3:23pm

Choc Chip wrote: »

You can't eliminate feral cats. This study documents the 19 years it took to eliminate them on an island in the indian ocean: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/38d3/7165bef076fa5180e531e2141116cac49cbf.pdf It's madness to think that you could eradicate them in Ireland where there is a population of house cats that are allowed to stray and breed with the feral population.

Also, the vacuum effect occurs when you remove a colony, with other cats moving into the area to repopulate it and exploit the resources that attracted the first colony.

Numerous studies have shown that TNR is, long term, the best way to reduce numbers. There are links to various studies here: http://www.animaladvocacy.ie/tnr/scientific-evidence/key-scientific-studies-on-trap-neuter-return/

I do agree that if people want to have a pet cat, it should be kept inside. I don't understand the hatred shown to them though. The ferals I know are scrawny, half starved things.

I've seen some big fat ferals over the years. Of course one looked like the elusive black panther of ireland and I could see how that story started but it was a very large tom feral.
Alot of them are healthy. Im talking the countryside feral cat. Theyre normally healthy looking

Acosta · 29-07-2020 3:25pm

We keep our cat inside, but people that don't should be encouraged by vets etc to put a collar and bell on theirs to help protect wildlife.

We feed 3 feral cats too that have been neutered. If I could get near them without them running off I'd but a collar and bell on them but they're not having it. There is a bit of a rat problem around here so I'm happy they're around.

New Home · 29-07-2020 3:28pm

We can all agree that pet owners should act responsibly and care for their animals adequately.

New Home · 29-07-2020 3:34pm

dodderangler wrote: »

I've seen some big fat ferals over the years. Of course one looked like the elusive black panther of ireland and I could see how that story started but it was a very large tom feral.
Alot of them are healthy. Im talking the countryside feral cat. Theyre normally healthy looking

If they're healthy-looking (unless our definitions of healthy-looking differ) they're probably not feral. I'm rural, too, there's a cat colony around here and if they're not scrawny they've invariably injuries or infections or various parasites, and that's just what you can see. They're looking most definitely neglected.

dodderangler · 29-07-2020 3:42pm

New Home wrote: »

If they're healthy-looking (unless our definitions of healthy-looking differ) they're probably not feral. I'm rural, too, there's a cat colony around here and if they're not scrawny they've invariably injuries or infections or various parasites, and that's just what you can see. They're looking most definitely neglected.

Hunting since I was six. In middle of nowhere in alot of places. These aren't owned by anyone and the farmers around have collars on their cats if they have them.
I kowwhat a feral looks like mate.

New Home · 29-07-2020 3:44pm

Good for you.

dodderangler · 29-07-2020 3:48pm

New Home wrote: »

Good for you.

I'm guessing you're a cat owner because youre defending them so much.

Igotadose · 29-07-2020 3:57pm

dodderangler wrote: »

I've seen some big fat ferals over the years. Of course one looked like the elusive black panther of ireland and I could see how that story started but it was a very large tom feral.
Alot of them are healthy. Im talking the countryside feral cat. Theyre normally healthy looking

I could readily refute this with pictures of the local mangy, scrawny feral cats here in the countryside as well. They look terrible to me, obvious mange on some, and despite bunches of kittens in the spring, you hardly see any make it to the winter. I think feral cats have short, nasty and brutish lives as a result unless food is put out for them. Those that are fed by well-intentioned neighbors look better, true, but only those. They're not getting fat from eating wild birds and mice and so on.

BloodBath · 29-07-2020 4:20pm

dodderangler wrote: »

You should take your own advice. Do you go out and view what they do?? I've seen it personally. Ive seen the damage done. I've talked ti the farmers and they've told me they've even got them on the cameras.

I don't think you have much of a clue about cats at all tbh. Claiming a single cat can kill thousands of birds a year and that they catch rabbits and will drop a dead rabbit to chase and kill another 1. That a cat will kill a whole chicken coop? Most cats wouldn't go anywhere near a chicken coop. All nonsense.

Where are you getting this ****e out of? Farmers giving out about them as well. What are ye on about? Is it killing your livestock? No it's not.

Talking about damage to native species? Farming has done more damage to native species than anything else. Get your own house in order.

Eddie B · 29-07-2020 4:38pm

Igotadose wrote: »

I could readily refute this with pictures of the local mangy, scrawny feral cats here in the countryside as well. They look terrible to me, obvious mange on some, and despite bunches of kittens in the spring, you hardly see any make it to the winter. I think feral cats have short, nasty and brutish lives as a result unless food is put out for them. Those that are fed by well-intentioned neighbors look better, true, but only those. They're not getting fat from eating wild birds and mice and so on.

Sorry, but this just doesn't make sense. Feral cats are thriving in the wild. Why wouldn't they? Even a domestic moggy is a skillful predator. Now take a cat that was probably born in the wild. Grew up hunting for food from very young, and is more than capable of feeding itself, and its young.

We are so used to pampering our pets. Thinking that feeding them tins of crap, is better than fresh meat. Humans eh!

Personally, most of the true ferals i've seen look bigger than average for a cat. I don't mean big as in obese, but tall and sleak. Just like fox's, you see the odd diseased or injured one, but as a whole, most are healthy and thriving.

c.p.w.g.w · 29-07-2020 5:01pm

o1s1n wrote: »

No bladder problems here with my two or any of my friends indoor cats, first I've hard of it.

Even if so, I think it's better for their health than risking them getting mauled by a dog/run over by a car/eating something poisonous/falling off something high and breaking a limb. Indoor cats statistically live longer lives.

I don't want to be getting down on another cat owner, but you really do have no idea what your cats have done while out in the wild. You might have taken a few birds off of them, but they may have left a trail of destruction through nests and other birds that you'll never know about.

I'm not sure if you remember, but when I was growing up as a kid, people would let their dogs out to roam about the place. That was put a stop to and looking back, the idea now sounds ridiculous.

I'd say some day soon we'll be thinking the same way about pet cats.

With the bladder thing, my vet(long in the game & highly regarded) said he only started to see it when apartment living became a thing, he actually had to look it up in his books at the time because it was so rare(late 80's) he sees it a lot now. But as he said, once the cars aren't bored they are normally fine...

Cats out and about isn't the same as a dog now, cats tend to run away, never seen a cat run and attack a human like a dog...

em_cat · 29-07-2020 5:42pm

Most of our cats were indoor and the ones that went out never left our gardens as they were a : lazy and b: always indoors by nightfall and we didn’t have cat flaps. I always played with our cats like I did our dogs so maybe that’s why they didn’t wander at night IDK. We often had feral running around but can’t remember if TNR was a thing back then but do remember the state of them, skinny, matted, FIV and a host of other issues.

We had barn owls when I was growing up along with hens, bats, Shelties that we’re working dogs, but pure pets along with a goat. I don’t think we often had rodent problems, but that was probably due the owls and a Shelties.

Feral cats are over populated and definitely need to be controlled but to advocate PTS instead of TNR is madness and cruel.

kildare lad · 29-07-2020 5:48pm

I know this is from Australia but still , people who own cats must realise that letting their cats out all day does serious damage to wildlife .

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/15/keep-pet-cats-indoors-say-researchers-who-found-they-kill-230m-native-australian-animals-each-year

The new analysis on pet cats drew on recent studies that had used a range of techniques to understand their hunting habits, including GPS trackers, video collars, analysis of scats and surveys of owners.

The study found each feral cat kills an average 576 native birds, mammals and reptiles per year, while pet cats kill an average of 110 native animals every year – 40 reptiles, 38 birds and 32 mammals.

In total, this meant pet cats were killing 66.9m native mammals, 79.7m native birds and 82.9m native reptiles every year.

I remember having an argument with a woman on a wildlife page on Facebook , it ended up that she has 5 outdoors cats and she can live with them bringing home birds because she likes cats, I asked her what's she's doing on a wildlife page then , She just laughed at my comment . A few days later there was a post about people poisoning buzzards and she was giving out stink about the people that poisoned them . I couldn't get my head around , she's ok with her outdoors cats killing loads of birds every year cos she likes cats but when someone poisons a buzzard she goes mad . People with outdoors cats on wildlife groups , they don't see the hypocrisy in themselves

kildare lad · 29-07-2020 5:51pm

em_cat wrote: »

Feral cats are over populated and definitely need to be controlled but to advocate PTS instead of TNR is madness and cruel.

So putting a cat to sleep is cruel but neutering a cat and releasing him back into the wild killing loads of wildlife is ok . I scratch my head

Eddie B · 29-07-2020 5:59pm

kildare lad wrote: »

I know this is from Australia but still , people who own cats must realise that letting their cats out all day does serious damage to wildlife .

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/15/keep-pet-cats-indoors-say-researchers-who-found-they-kill-230m-native-australian-animals-each-year

The new analysis on pet cats drew on recent studies that had used a range of techniques to understand their hunting habits, including GPS trackers, video collars, analysis of scats and surveys of owners.

The study found each feral cat kills an average 576 native birds, mammals and reptiles per year, while pet cats kill an average of 110 native animals every year – 40 reptiles, 38 birds and 32 mammals.

In total, this meant pet cats were killing 66.9m native mammals, 79.7m native birds and 82.9m native reptiles every year.

I remember having an argument with a woman on a wildlife page on Facebook , it ended up that she has 5 outdoors cats and she can live with them bringing home birds because she likes cats, I asked her what's she's doing on a wildlife page then , She just laughed at my comment . A few days later there was a post about people poisoning buzzards and she was giving out stink about the people that poisoned them . I couldn't get my head around , she's ok with her outdoors cats killing loads of birds every year cos she likes cats but when someone poisons a buzzard she goes mad . People with outdoors cats on wildlife groups , they don't see the hypocrisy in themselves

Excellent post, and very informative. For those who do like keeping cats, I know it must be a hard subject. Being responsible for your own cats, and not supporting those who let theirs stray all over the countryside, is as much as you can do. That of course goes for dog owners too.

zerosugarbuzz · 29-07-2020 6:05pm

Eddie B wrote: »

I am actually shocked that people on this forum are OK with allowing cats to roam the countryside to kill our native wildlife species. CATCH, NEUTER, RELEASE. What a load of bull. CATCH, and PUT TO SLEEP, is the only way to deal with this menace. Shame on those who turn a blind eye.

O by all means, have whatever pet you want. Be it cat, dog, goldfish, or whatever. BUT keep them on your property, or on a leash. No it's or buts, just be a responsible pet owner.

What native wild life are you specifically referring to? Mink, ferrets, rats foxes? Or is it just birds. If its birds I think you may have missed the absolute viciousness between the various species be it crows, magpies or even the simple robin (simple til angered). Are you actually familar with nature at all, maybe just on TV?

dodderangler · 29-07-2020 6:17pm

BloodBath wrote: »

I don't think you have much of a clue about cats at all tbh. Claiming a single cat can kill thousands of birds a year and that they catch rabbits and will drop a dead rabbit to chase and kill another 1. That a cat will kill a whole chicken coop? Most cats wouldn't go anywhere near a chicken coop. All nonsense.

Where are you getting this ****e out of? Farmers giving out about them as well. What are ye on about? Is it killing your livestock? No it's not.

Talking about damage to native species? Farming has done more damage to native species than anything else. Get your own house in order.

Mate seriously cop onto yourself. Ive seen it. Hunting a long long time.
You clearly have no clue on the difference between a feral and a housecat when it comes to being around poultry etc. Get out of here trying to be smart you fool. Stay at home and play with your cats.

Cats

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