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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    I

    Yes, Indeed, I remember it. Six underground lines, the Thameslink, and two overground stations. What a spot.

    But what we are dealing with is a proposed metro, and one tram line. it will never get any more complicated.

















    yes



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Economics101


    If the companies in a PPP go bust, that's it, let them go. If banks go bust the consequences for practically all households and businesses are catastrophic, which is why bailouts are (unfortunately) necessary. The external effects of bank bankruptcy are orders of magnitude greater than ordinary company bankruptcy.

    Post edited by Economics101 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    They are required to fund the project otherwise the government has to pay them as works are done, which means they lose the control they have if the company has to make sure everything runs smoothly for decades in order to recoup the money to pay back their financiers. There is also the opportunity cost of that particular project eating up much of the capital budget, meaning you don't have funds for other projects.

    The PPP company is not like a regular company. It is set up specifically for the execution of that particular contract, it doesn't have other liabilities or take on other contracts. It will have specific insurances, bond, parent company guarantees, collateral warranties, etc. Constituent companies within the PPP Co may go bust, but the PPP company remains and still has to fulfil its obligations or it doesn't get paid. If the entire PPP Co did somehow collapse, the government has the system they provided but doesn't have to pay them the rest of the money.

    There is more risk of contractors going bust in a standard contractual arrangement. See Roadbridge where liabilities built up over many years eventually dragged them down, despite having a full order book and big income. If the company goes bust like that, the government could have paid out a lot money to them and end up having to pay more and wait longer to get the project completed than if the original contractor had completed it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Looking at Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII), they appear to have responsibility for Road development and "Public Transport" projects. However the latter is totally confined to LUAS and Metrolink. Looking at the NTA, their role is purely current operation (PSO) contracts. So who is responsible for ordinary heavy rail developments? Surely if TII means anything it should have a role, when you realise that major road and rail projects should complement one another.

    The governance structure for Transport investment projects is shambolic; the results are likely to be similar.

    And we still know virtually nothing about issues such as rolling stock procurement and depot construction, and their associated costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    TII have no experience in heavy rail.

    That’s the responsibility of the Infrastructure Management half of Iarnród Éireann, and specifically the New Works section.

    The NTA set the parameters for all public transport projects, and then co-ordinate all of the investment with the Department of Transport.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Well, TII had nothing to do with light rail until they took over the responsibilities of the RPA. Would it not make sense for them to have some sort of formal role in heavy rail investment planning, given the interaction between road and rail projects? After all the development of the motorway network has had significant effects on Intercity rail and even long-distance commuter travel.

    And the RPA never procured any ordinary railway in its life!.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I don’t see why that would be any sort of improvement? You’d just be moving people around for the sake of it.

    There’s no interaction between road and rail projects - the synergy in creating TII was merging the back office support of the RPA and the NRA into one single unit to reduce costs. They’re completely different specialities.

    The NTA make all of the decisions when it comes to all public transport investment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    TII was created by merging the RPA and NRA, therefore TII had everything do with light rail from it's very inception. On the first day TII came into existence, they had the staff who oversaw the development of Luas.

    There is limited overlap between heavy rail and road, our light rail is largely on road so a clear overlap. The development of the motorway network may have had significant effects on Intercity rail usage but it had little impact on the network itself.

    The RPA never procured any heavy rail because there was already a body doing it and with huge experience there. RPA was specifically set up to develop a light rail system the like of which did not already exist in this country. Not sure what point you are trying to make but if you think one body should have covered but heavy and light rail, surely it would have made more sense for that to have been IÉ rather than a completely new body (not that I think that would have been a good idea but it seems more logical than what you seem to be suggesting).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Economics101


    There may not be much connection between heavy rail and road projects in technical/engineering terms, but there surely is in economic terms. I imagine that all major public investment projects are subject to some sort on consistent evaluation in terms of cost-benefit analysis (CBA). Thus, if there is a certain overall transport infrasctructure budget, its allocation between projects and transport modes should depend on CBA.

    I know that this is getting a bit away from Metrolink, but the overall institutions and procedures for evaluating major public transport expenditures seems to me to be not very transparent or logical. There are other very important links which we should consider, for example access charges to the transport infrastructure and how these are inconsistent as between transport modes. But that's an argument for another place and time.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There may be an argument for merging Irish Rails Infrastructure Operator division with TII. But it won't accelerate anything now or for decades



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  • Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭specialbyte


    Here's more context on the PPP aspect. This is an answer from Peter Walsh, CEO of TII, during the press conference earlier in the week. This text answer is my transcription from 40:50 of this video https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1vOGwyEdVPrxB (caution: it likely contains transcription errors as I did this very quickly)

    "The PPP element of the current procurement programme will cover all of the line-wide elements, rolling stock, signals and the operation for, the term hasn't been fully determined, but on the order of 25 years. The reason for going with that system is that it transfers risk to the people who are going to be operating it in terms of getting it up and functioning. In TII we've used PPP availability contracts on a number of projects and we believe it protects the taxpayers interests. There is a requirement to have it available for use before you start paying in that contract. It's that aspect of it that we believe is very important, and it reflects that the systems element, this project is about the systems, it's about carrying people, and it's not just about the civili engineering works, building the tunnels and stations. It's about a system that will provide for the movement of people. So it's a recognition of that we've gone with this procurement strategy having a PPP that will run for a very long time"

    At a later point in the video Peter Walsh or Aidan Foley (MetroLink project director, TII) mentioned the difficulties Crossrail in the UK had getting started. There was lots of compliance documentation missing and complex IT/signalling issues to resolve. It's why Bond Street station on Crossrail still hasn't opened and why Crossrail is opening in disconnected phases.

    TII hinted at the press conference that their expertise is in engineering and project delivery. It isn't in IT issues. They are out-sourcing that aspect into the PPP contract. Most importantly the PPP contract doesn't start paying out until the system is up and running moving passengers.

    It seems like good self-awareness about what are their strengths.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24 Bebra


    Did anyone read Colm McCarthy in the Sunday Independent today? I'm too much of a skinfkint to pay for it. Is he saying it shouldn't be built?



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Without even having read it, I can confirm that he is indeed saying it shouldn't be built.

    Colm McCarthy has been campaigning against MetroLink for years. He wrote about it last week, last year, the year before that etc. That shouldn't stop us from building it. If anything, it's a vote of confidence. He campaigned against the Luas in 2000s and, I think, the DART in the 80s. It's only if he supports a project that I'd stop and re-evaluate.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Apply the same logic as you apply to stuff Mannix Flynn is against.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Colm McCarthy is a bit of a contrarian when it comes to any large infrastructure projects, doesn't believe the State should be involved in them - really approaches it from the perspective of favouring the idea of the 'small State'. His involvement in the Progressive Democrats encapsulates this.

    I remember him banging on for years while lecturing me that renewable energy was a waste of time and the Government should not invest in wind energy whatsoever. He has been proved completely wrong in everything that he lectured us on. I just laugh to myself now whenever he is cited as an expert on transport or energy infrastructure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980




  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    What a terrible article/headline.

    Here's the original article:

    OPW to reassure state boards over Metro tunnelling concerns




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Longer version of the video, with a tour of the entire route.



  • Registered Users Posts: 405 ✭✭McAlban




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    it’s just noise from irrelevant groups, the last thing the metro needs is changes while a TBM is in the ground that’s a recipe for a blank cheque.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's not a bad idea but why not just build this line first as planned. Planning for new lines can continue in parallel



  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    The video should played on primetime TV and in every school and marketed non stop on social media.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭JohnnyChimpo


    Not sure that pre-empting Love Island for a 15 minute video of architectural renders would endear the wider public to the project, tbh



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    A fellow told me he was involved in the building of a community centre. There was a committee driving it. A basic design was agreed, got planning and an acceptable quote.

    Even before the building had started, committee members were suggesting 'improvements'. My friend said he put a complete ban on any suggestions until the building was finished and paid for, as he said any 'improvement' - whatever they were - would be cheaper to do under a new contract because there was no rate in the current contract for 'improvements'. He was right, and it applies to nearly all building contracts. Just look at the National Children's Hospital.

    If they want to do more than Swords to Charlemont, it needs to be in place before contracts are signed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,300 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I haven't read the full article from Colm McCarthy in the Indo's website. But my goodness; if you read within the sub headline of that article which says ''Keeping Up With The Joneses''. That tells you a whole lot about the man's temperament when he talks about the country wanting to build major pieces of infrastructure.

    He is ignorant, He is arrogant and he is also self serving to help to his further his own ego about being a so called expert on these matters while trying to beat this project down to a bloody pulp whenever he sees fit.

    However I don't know what he is like outside of that sphere because I have not met the man on a personal level. But to me when you see a man like this who has lived in Dublin for such a long time; who has seen a good few improvements in Dublin's PT system over the past number of decades but still somehow refuses to see it's full potential for several more years into the future.

    I mean let's face it; there are other countries around the world at this current time that have either an underground/overground metro system provided for their own population that are as wealthy with the world as their oyster see it or as poor as whatever you may describe in your own words. Countries located within Eastern Europe or In New Delhi in India are great examples which they are already hugely successful.

    So why do people like McCarthy think that Ireland should not be allowed to have a slice of success from the underground metro pie.

    People here who have already explained the reasons have probably done so. I mean what kind of sad person do you have to be publicly against projects like the DART, the Luas and Metrolink all within one city. I cannot really understand it at all.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    McCarthy was also against the Euro. He prefers coaches to the Metrolink - was he ever on a coach from the Airport?.

    Was there anything he has been in favour of?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,850 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    There is no shortage of oddballs and head cases out there.

    Why they are given the oxygen of publicity to potentially damage societies is beyond me.

    Excellent public transport is an essential part of a more equal society. The ability to travel across a city, see friends and family, access education and employment should not be limited to those who can afford private transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Apart from obvious nonsense in that video, such as that 'The station at St. Stephen's Green provides access to the Green LUAS' (an enormous 370-400 metres away) and 'The O'Connell Street Station provides easy access to the LUAS Red Line' (recently discussed, and a laughable comment), one interesting aspect of the video is the length of the proposed vehicles.

    When last I paid any attention to this issue, the plan was to go for metro vehicles which were about 60m long, which was disappointing. It's clear from that video that the plan is for something quite a bit longer.

    The ones in the video may be 90m long, which I would welcome, perhaps even 120m. Certainly much more than 60m.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine




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  • Registered Users Posts: 39 jumpinsheep


    Rest assured that such prime real estate area won't be wasted by just making a big plaza... the air space is too valuable as well, with 2 x nearby constructions reaching 20 or 22 floors in height.

    From the very first documentation published by Metrolink 4 years ago, it is well known that this local area subject to CPO (College Gate apartments, Ashford House office + two derelict apt block + 8 townhouses owned by Dublin City Council), is available for construction on top of/next to the Tara ML station.

    Regarding potential antisocial behaviour in the future, it's unlikely in my opinion that the National Drug Treatment Centre nearby in Pearse St. will be moved elsewhere... TII/NTA knows about that centre too.

    From the rendering of Tara station in the latest long ML video in Vimeo, I took a screenshot at about 11:27 and tried a brief analysis based on publicly available information - opinions are welcome.



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