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No vision for a rapidly changing Ireland

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Comments

  • #122
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Newstalk covered the experience of Limerick city since Dell closed 10 years ago yesterday evening.

    The Hard Shoulder

    Willie O'Dea and John Moran (interim chair of land development agency)

    Some very interesting points made by John Moran in particular.


  • #123
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    DontThankMe wrote: »
    All I'm reading is problems and no solutions. How do you propose that the government could fix some of the problems that you have mentioned.

    Incentives for big companies to have headquarters in places other than Dublin - and incentive will follow for people to move...

    Decent public transport system too - get the Germans in to help us, don't let spud munching inbred Micks (it's ok , it's not racist , I'm Irish myself :P ) do it.

    Thats a start.


  • #124
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Decent public transport system too - get the Germans in to help us, don't let spud munching inbred Micks (it's ok , it's not racist , I'm Irish myself) do it.

    There is irony in this given that we built the roads in the UK and the railroads in America.


  • #125
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Tell me how wrote: »
    There is irony in this given that we built the roads in the UK and the railroads in America.

    Of course, I'm talking about the management of it, not the actual engineers/architects involved.


  • #126
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Of course, I'm talking about the management of it, not the actual engineers/architects involved.

    I think what we'd need is the German attitude to developing strategies for all of society and to be willing to accept the concept of 'the greater good'.

    (I bet there are people in Germany having the same conversations we are having mind)


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  • #127
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,342 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Incentives for big companies to have headquarters in places other than Dublin - and incentive will follow for people to move...

    Decent public transport system too - get the Germans in to help us, don't let spud munching inbred Micks (it's ok , it's not racist , I'm Irish myself :P ) do it.

    Thats a start.
    A prerequisite to decent public transport is decent rural planning.


  • #128
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    GAA Beo wrote: »
    You mention GAA, I could see Dublin winning 10 in a row. People will probably get fed up and just watch club football! Most counties haven't a hope anyway.

    At least the hurling is competitive.

    About 8 counties could win the AI this year.


  • #129
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    awec wrote: »
    A prerequisite to decent public transport is decent rural planning.

    How is it a prerequisite?
    The conversations we here about public transport are often focussed on the experience within towns/cities, a significant portion of this traffic originates within that area.


  • #130
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭markpb


    Tell me how wrote: »
    How is it a prerequisite?
    The conversations we here about public transport are often focussed on the experience within towns/cities, a significant portion of this traffic originates within that area.

    Do those towns have proper land use plans in place for the next 30 years? Have they identified the edges of the urban areas beyond which development will be discouraged? Have they identified core residential and employment areas and mapped out appropriate densities that will be allowed/enforced for those areas?


  • #131
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    markpb wrote: »
    Do those towns have proper land use plans in place for the next 30 years? Have they identified the edges of the urban areas beyond which development will be discouraged? Have they identified core residential and employment areas and mapped out appropriate densities that will be allowed/enforced for those areas?

    Does that not fall under the category of urban planning?


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  • #132
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    1,500 jobs announced for a single company in Dublin yesterday.

    Salesforce

    That is good news, I'm not ignoring that, but it echoes the concerns expressed in this thread that it is shoehorning more and more in to the capital and will likely end up with many commuting from outside it in to very heart of the city every day.

    It involves building a new facility on the northside docklands, I wonder were there any efforts by the IDA to promote an alternative location somewhere else in the country.


  • #133
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Tell me how wrote: »
    1,500 jobs announced for a single company in Dublin yesterday.

    Salesforce

    That is good news, I'm not ignoring that, but it echoes the concerns expressed in this thread that it is shoehorning more and more in to the capital and will likely end up with many commuting from outside it in to very heart of the city every day.

    It involves building a new facility on the northside docklands, I wonder were there any efforts by the IDA to promote an alternative location somewhere else in the country.

    And probably more to come (this announcement brings their size to 2,900, but the office they are taking on is suitable for 4,000-5,000 staff).

    They had to move to IFSC. They are currently based out in some grey soulless industrial estate in some stupid place like leapardstown that ~80% & of the Dublin population can't commute to (and most ideal staff wouldn't want to even if they could) and they have no ability to attract talent. So to expand, they had to move.

    Unfortunately, with Dublin having zero strategic planning in the past few decades, as the Irish Times puts it, there's nowhere for the staff to live. All the Sheriff Street area and East Wall etc should have been demolished years ago and built up to be part of a modern city. Unfortunately, with Sinn Fein running Dublin's planning, that never happened (and likely won't in the foreseeable future).


  • #134
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,342 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Tell me how wrote: »
    1,500 jobs announced for a single company in Dublin yesterday.

    Salesforce

    That is good news, I'm not ignoring that, but it echoes the concerns expressed in this thread that it is shoehorning more and more in to the capital and will likely end up with many commuting from outside it in to very heart of the city every day.

    It involves building a new facility on the northside docklands, I wonder were there any efforts by the IDA to promote an alternative location somewhere else in the country.
    Salesforce are already in Dublin, they are hardly going to make their existing staff commute to somewhere down the country all of a sudden.


  • #135
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    awec wrote: »
    Salesforce are already in Dublin, they are hardly going to make their existing staff commute to somewhere down the country all of a sudden.

    1500 new staff would hardly be classed as existing staff would they?

    Potential for 2nd location may have been alternative. I'm not suggesting it definitely should have been or easy or anything simplistic like that. But that I'm wondering was it even considered.

    Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.


  • #136
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Tell me how wrote: »
    1500 new staff would hardly be classed as existing staff would they?

    Potential for 2nd location may have been alternative. I'm not suggesting it definitely should have been or easy or anything simplistic like that. But that I'm wondering was it even considered.

    Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.

    People who come to live here want to live and work in the city centre.


  • #137
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,342 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Tell me how wrote: »
    1500 new staff would hardly be classed as existing staff would they?

    Potential for 2nd location may have been alternative. I'm not suggesting it definitely should have been or easy or anything simplistic like that. But that I'm wondering was it even considered.

    Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.
    Leopardstown is not really soulless and unsuitable. There are loads of companies in Leopardstown and Sandyford, the place is buzzing during the day. At night there is not a lot going on, but not really sure why Salesforce employees would care about that unless they decide to live there too.

    It's the same old problem at the end of the day. Salesforce want to hire from the upper echelons of the talent pool. Those people don't want to live down the country.


  • #138
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Newstalk covered the experience of Limerick city since Dell closed 10 years ago yesterday evening.

    The Hard Shoulder

    Willie O'Dea and John Moran (interim chair of land development agency)

    Some very interesting points made by John Moran in particular.

    Dell never closed in Limerick, they employ 1000+ people in the city to this day


  • #139
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I think there are other reasons why Ireland has remained rural. A very high percentage of the country is highly desirable to live in from a health and aesthetics perspective. Also, it is a small country. I know several living in Clare/Dublin/Limerick who travel to Dublin for work 1 - 2 days a week without it feeling like it's a massive burden to do so.



    One possible issue with such a system is that if areas such as, for example, Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Wexford, Portlaoise, Mullingar, Cavan Town etc were identified as areas where industry was going to be targeted, other towns/cities would feel that they were being abandoned and should have been selected in the first place. Ennis for example would probably feel aggrieved but realistically, its location between limerick and Galway might mean that this is the case. But then, are you accepting that 1 hour + commute to work is acceptable

    There is a horrible education and understanding of the demographics of this country. I have no idea why the CSO use city council areas as their headlines for population, since many are 50+ years old. Cork has multiple suburbs with double the population of Cavan town, Douglas has a larger population than all of the towns on your list except Limerick and Galway. Cork with 220k in its direct urban area and nearly 400k in its commuter belt hardly belongs in the same category as Mullingar or Sligo that have 20k populations.


  • #140
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    People who come to live here want to live and work in the city centre.

    What about those that already live here outside the city centre who want to work?


  • #141
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Dell never closed in Limerick, they employ 1000+ people in the city to this day

    You know as well as I do the closure referred to the closure of the pc manufacturing plant.
    What still exists is not manufacturing.

    The manufacturing facilitated a lot more ancillary activity with local companies than R&D and finance do.

    RR Donnelly (Banta) had up to 700 employees at one point and were one of Dell's main suppliers. They closed after Dell manufacturing left.
    snotboogie wrote: »
    There is a horrible education and understanding of the demographics of this country. I have no idea why the CSO use city council areas as their headlines for population, since many are 50+ years old. Cork has multiple suburbs with double the population of Cavan town, Douglas has a larger population than all of the towns on your list except Limerick and Galway. Cork with 220k in its direct urban area and nearly 400k in its commuter belt hardly belongs in the same category as Mullingar or Sligo that have 20k populations.

    What's your point? What I was implying there is scope for placing businesses outside Dublin.


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  • #142
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    awec wrote: »
    Leopardstown is not really soulless and unsuitable. There are loads of companies in Leopardstown and Sandyford, the place is buzzing during the day. At night there is not a lot going on, but not really sure why Salesforce employees would care about that unless they decide to live there too.

    It's the same old problem at the end of the day. Salesforce want to hire from the upper echelons of the talent pool. Those people don't want to live down the country.

    Both elements of the point in bold are somewhat debatable.

    Many people would rather live down the country and work somewhat locally (which realistically involve some degree of commuting as it will in Dublin also).
    How do we change the perception of life in other parts of the country if we don't actively encourage companies to locate there.
    I don't think it is the right approach to let companies who want to locate in Dublin City centre dictate the strategy for the entire country.
    The country is not that big (smaller than florida). I live in Ennis, and as have posted before, have regularly gone to shows in Dublin and can still get in to bed in Ennis at around 01:30. The idea that living in Dublin is the only way to enjoy its appeal and that the rest of the country is akin to living in solitude and desolation is part of what needs to change.


  • #143
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Tell me how wrote: »
    You know as well as I do the closure referred to the closure of the pc manufacturing plant.
    What still exists is not manufacturing.

    The manufacturing facilitated a lot more ancillary activity with local companies than R&D and finance do.

    RR Donnelly (Banta) had up to 700 employees at one point and were one of Dell's main suppliers. They closed after Dell manufacturing left.



    What's your point? What I was implying there is scope for placing businesses outside Dublin.

    Most people do not get that distinction and it’s an important one. I’d say that Dell are still the biggest multinational employer in Limerick, they never closed and they have been expanding in the last 18 months.

    The point is that there is a massive difference between persuading a multinational company to come to Cork and Mullingar. There is hundreds of millions of Grade A city centre office space for 10,000 employees under construction by the private sector in Cork now (Navigation Square, Penrose Dock and Horgans Quay) along with one major scheme (One Albert Quay) and two smaller schemes (85 South Mall and The Capitol) finished in the last year. There is a grand total of one (publicly funded) grade A office scheme under construction or finished between all of the other towns and cities you have mentioned combined, the hanging gardens in Limerick.


  • #144
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Most people do not get that distinction and it’s an important one. I’d say that Dell are still the biggest multinational employer in Limerick, they never closed and they have been expanding in the last 18 months.

    The point is that there is a massive difference between persuading a multinational company to come to Cork and Mullingar. There is hundreds of millions of Grade A city centre office space for 10,000 employees under construction by the private sector in Cork now (Navigation Square, Penrose Dock and Horgans Quay) along with one major scheme (One Albert Quay) and two smaller schemes (85 South Mall and The Capitol) finished in the last year. There is a grand total of one (publicly funded) grade A office schemes under construction or finished between all of the other towns and cities you have mentioned combined.

    I disagree that most people view Dell as never having left Limerick given that many would have known about them through the companies which supplied them as much as the actual business the delivered then as compared to now.

    It goes without saying that there is a difference between Cork and Mullingar. But that does not mean that no companies be considered for (Mullingar or other places like it) until Cork is full to capacity.

    The whole point is trying to correct some of the massive imbalance we have with the % of the population living in Dublin.


  • #145
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I disagree that most people view Dell as never having left Limerick given that many would have known about them through the companies which supplied them as much as the actual business the delivered then as compared to now.

    It goes without saying that there is a difference between Cork and Mullingar. But that does not mean that no companies be considered for (Mullingar or other places like it) until Cork is full to capacity.

    The whole point is trying to correct some of the massive imbalance we have with the % of the population living in Dublin.

    I don’t get your point on Dell? Yes they downsized and massively changed their business portfolio in the city but the fact is that they never left Limerick. Yes suppliers shut down but Dell kept a strong and now growing employment base in Limerick.

    I think we need to reflect the reality of our urban areas in our expectations for our cities. Cork is unlikely to score a major blue chip Bay Area tech company for over 1,000 employees in the next few years. The construction industry has been focusing on financial services (Clearstream and KPMG) cyber security (forcepoint, keeper, alienvault and Tyco) and smaller regional offices for the big tech companies (Amazon and Facebook) to fill their new builds. The likes of Sligo will be looking to smaller up and coming tech firms as they don’t have the space for 500+ staff like you find in Cork.


  • #146
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Tell me how wrote: »
    What about those that already live here outside the city centre who want to work?

    The city centre is easier to get to. On average.


  • #147
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    IMHO our best bet is to build up our other cities, Galway, Cork & Limerick and try and get furture MNC's to base themselves there. Atm everything is too Dublin centric and it is strangling the capital. At least if we spread the opportunities between all the major cities it makes it commutable from most of the country. Companies and especially MNC's are going to want to be based somewhere where there is a certain scale of infrastructure so every town in every county is never going to be a choice for them but at least if the IDA promote the major cities equally then it should mean that there will be more companies basing themselves in the three other major cities. Couple that with an emphasis on infrastructure improvement on the West Coast and I can see a bright future for us.


  • #148
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    What are all these companies going to do when the Docklands area needs to be evacuated due to rising sea levels? Just asking here as I have done in several other threads over recent years - never had a reply let alone an answer.

    ****



  • #149
    Undividual
    Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭Undividual


    lawred2 wrote: »
    and?

    things change

    The logic of unquestioning conformity. Where to start with this kind of mentality.

    Who decides how things change? How do those people come to the relevant conclusions? If things change, I assume each person can have some hand in how those things change, or in ensuring that some things do not change. As such, conversing over these subjects (as on this forum) is a way for individuals to develop a deeper understanding which will inform their future course/s of action.

    It is frustrating that some people think being opposed to some change automatically means that you are ignorant or intolerant in some way.


  • #150
    Undividual
    Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭Undividual


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    What are all these companies going to do when the Docklands area needs to be evacuated due to rising sea levels? Just asking here as I have done in several other threads over recent years - never had a reply let alone an answer.

    I'm guessing it'd be cheaper to raise the IFSC/Liffey walls to prevent flooding than move offices. There are cities in the world which exist below sea level.


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  • #151
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    The city centre is easier to get to. On average.

    Debatable. But if so, that is part of the problem.


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