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Saville & satanic ritual abuse

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Comments

  • #182
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote: »
    Perhaps it's that attitude to rigorous inquiry that led to you make untruthful statements in the first place?

    I can appreciate you're upset because it's guilt by association but I certainly didn't accuse you personally of being involved in any criminal activity due to your association with the Freemasons so there's no need to be so defensive.

    You're entitled to your opinion on whether my opinions are silly or not but your opinion isn't fact.


  • #183
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    I can appreciate you're upset because it's guilt by association but I certainly didn't accuse you personally of being involved in any criminal activity due to your association with the Freemasons so there's no need to be so defensive.
    I think you're confusing ennui with defensiveness; were the Grand Lodge of England co-ordinating every Lodge on the island to cover up the most heinous of crimes I wouldn't feel any 'guilt by association'; but when you blatantly state
    'Freemasons covered up child abuse' knowing you are stating your (baseless) opinion as a fact that is certainly annoying.
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    You're entitled to your opinion on whether my opinions are silly or not but your opinion isn't fact.
    You're right, it's my opinion based on the facts you've presented.


  • #184
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    You're very sensitive to this whole Freemason thing, Absolam.


  • #185
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Absolam wrote: »
    Perhaps it's that attitude to rigorous inquiry that led to you make untruthful statements in the first place?
    Well done. At least now you simply have an erroneous opinion, instead of claiming a lie as a fact.
    That's a little bit obtuse. That's how what works?

    Absolam,

    I don't think anyone is accusing freemasonry of being pro-child abuse. I think the issue is that people are far more prone to covering up criminality of another if they have a loyalty to the other. For regular people this "loyalty" doesn't extend beyond close family and friends. A freemason has millions of "brothers" around the world.

    If a regular person's "brother" was being investigated/accused of a crime and the brother was a judge, jury or detective etc then the brother would excuse himself due to a conflict of interest.

    This is all out in the open and justice can be served. A freemasonic brotherhood and it's members is shrouded in secrecy.

    If a freemason is standing before a "brother" judge or jury he can give some signal known only to initiates of the secret society to communicate their shared brotherhood and there is the very potential of a travesty of justice and no regular people would have any idea.

    Now, if you have a better theory than Sir Jimmy Saville being protected to explain how he could get away with so much abuse for so long I'd love to hear it.


  • #186
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I think the issue is that people are far more prone to covering up criminality of another if they have a loyalty to the other. For regular people this "loyalty" doesn't extend beyond close family and friends. A freemason has millions of "brothers" around the world.
    So, your insinuation is a Freemason is not a 'regular' person, so is more prone to cover up the criminality of millions of 'brothers'? What makes you imagine that a Freemason feels a familial level of loyalty to millions of people whom he has never met? Freemasons come from all walks of life and all backgrounds, they're as regular as any other person, and have the same capacity for loyalty as 'regular' people.
    Let's try one of your types of examples; would you criminally cover up your natural born brother's pedophilic crimes if you became aware of them? Some people would, some people wouldn't. And as 'regular' people, Freemasons are the same; some would and some wouldn't.
    Would you extent the same level of loyalty to your close friend as your natural born brother? Again, with Freemasons being 'regular' people; some would and some wouldn't.
    Further, would you extend that level of loyalty to a member of a golf club affiliated to your own? The number of 'regular' people who would is vanishingly small; and the same goes for Freemasons. If I ever travel to Sweden or Chile, I can be assured of a warm welcome, a seat in a Lodge and a hot meal, but I wouldn't imagine any of them will bail me out of jail or supply me with illegal substances; they don't know me and they're under no obligation to do so.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If a regular person's "brother" was being investigated/accused of a crime and the brother was a judge, jury or detective etc then the brother would excuse himself due to a conflict of interest.
    Indeed, and if a Freemasons' familial brother was being investigated/accused of a crime and he was a judge, jury or detective etc then the Freemason would excuse himself due to a conflict of interest, seeing as how Freemasons are also regular people. Obviously you're trying to use the fact that Freemasons use the term 'brother' to describe fellow members to pretend that a familial level of loyalty exists between all Freemasons, but that is simply not the case, nor is there any cause to believe it is so.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    A freemasonic brotherhood and it's members is shrouded in secrecy.
    It's a wonderful phrase and all, but what are you suggesting it means? Meeting places are not secret, most members don't keep their membership secret, rules are not secret. What exactly is 'shrouded in secrecy' that is likely to thwart the service of justice?
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If a freemason is standing before a "brother" judge or jury he can give some signal known only to initiates of the secret society to communicate their shared brotherhood and there is the very potential of a travesty of justice and no regular people would have any idea.
    Really? How do you know he can give some signal known only to initiates of the secret society and regular people would have no idea? Surely, if he could, you would have no idea? Because if you have an idea, then obviously, he can't?
    But let's pretend your logical fallacy doesn't exist, let's say the defendant wears his masonic School tie to his hearing, with his masonic Golf club pin on his jacket, and when the judge sternly peers his way he gives the secret masonic GAA signal for a player in need of aid on the pitch. What then? Nothing in Freemasonry compels him to do anything different; he's not obliged to give any assistance to the accused other than that which his obligation as Judge requires him to give every defendant.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Now, if you have a better theory than Sir Jimmy Saville being protected to explain how he could get away with so much abuse for so long I'd love to hear it.
    Better theory than what? There hasn't been a theory put forward yet; Harold Weiss' assertions that it's 'Cognitive Dissonance', 'Freemasons covered up child abuse' and of course 'Freemasons always involved in some kind of criminality' isn't exactly a theory.
    I've no doubt (and certainly no proof) that Saville had tremendous influence in British society and used that influence to deflect enquiries from his foul activities. I also wouldn't be surprised (though I would be disgusted) if some of the people who should have done something and didn't were Freemasons; Freemasons are 'regular' people as I said and it's unlikely that in the very wide social circles Saville had that there would have been no Freemasons at all.


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  • #187
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote:
    Brown Bomber wrote:
    A freemasonic brotherhood and it's members is shrouded in secrecy.

    It's a wonderful phrase and all, but what are you suggesting it means? Meeting places are not secret, most members don't keep their membership secret, rules are not secret. What exactly is 'shrouded in secrecy' that is likely to thwart the service of justice?

    Absolam, I want to join the Freemasons, how can I join?
    Where do I apply for membership?


  • #188
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Absolam wrote: »
    I also wouldn't be surprised (though I would be disgusted) if some of the people who should have done something and didn't were Freemasons; Freemasons are 'regular' people as I said and it's unlikely that in the very wide social circles Saville had that there would have been no Freemasons at all.







    I recall sitting with my sponsor for three hours, who, during this time, did a very good job of answering all my questions, and quite frankly, telling me absolutely nothing. But, the one comment he did make that tweaked my interest, was that “Freemasonry takes a good man and makes him better”.

    Epic fail in this instance so

    Or maybe not perhaps they just took good men and made them good Freemasons


    http://freemasoninformation.com/2012/07/a-young-masons-journey-to-find-the-making-of-a-good-man-better/


  • #189
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Absolam, I want to join the Freemasons, how can I join?
    Where do I apply for membership?

    I don't think you do Harold, I think you're telling fibs. Didn't you say Freemasons are always involved in criminality? Why would you want to join an organisation you believe is involved in criminality? Should we think you want to be a criminal, or should we think you're telling fibs?


  • #190
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    enno99 wrote: »
    I recall sitting with my sponsor for three hours, who, during this time, did a very good job of answering all my questions, and quite frankly, telling me absolutely nothing. But, the one comment he did make that tweaked my interest, was that “Freemasonry takes a good man and makes him better”.Epic fail in this instance so Or maybe not perhaps they just took a good men and made him a good Freemasons
    The fellow who wrote the article seems pleasant enough; I hardly think it's fair to call him an epic fail.


  • #191
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    Absolam wrote: »
    The fellow who wrote the article seems pleasant enough; I hardly think it's fair to call him an epic fail.

    Ah sure I was talking about the ones you alluded to but you know that right
    you just go ahead and ignore the bit where I said men and freemasons if it helps


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  • #192
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Absolam wrote: »
    I don't think you do Harold, I think you're telling fibs. Didn't you say Freemasons are always involved in criminality? Why would you want to join an organisation you believe is involved in criminality? Should we think you want to be a criminal, or should we think you're telling fibs?

    Honestly, I'd like to establish some contacts within the criminal underworld and the Freemasons seems like a reasonably good place to start.

    To be serious though, why don't you tell me how to join? I'd really love to know.


  • #193
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to establish some contacts within the criminal underworld and the Freemasons seems like a reasonably good place to start.

    To be serious though, why don't you tell me how to join? I'd really love to know.

    I know boards is taken to be the oracle of all wisdom but you could have tried a google search...

    Ill save yer fingers.... Click on this link here .

    they have an email address too but you have to have the third eye of solomon to see it on the webpage.


  • #194
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    How do I join?

    Thank you for expressing an interest in Freemasonry by seeking out this information.
    What are the qualifications?

    Freemasonry is proud of its philosophy and practice of "making good men better." Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. Every applicant must be 21 years of age or more and respected in his locality.
    Armelodie wrote: »
    I know boards is taken to be the oracle of all wisdom but you could have tried a google search...

    Ill save yer fingers.... Click on this link here .

    they have an email address too but you have to have the third eye of solomon to see it on the webpage.

    Right. Now we've established the criteria, it seems to be an elitist club where Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. which is very vague but no doubt you can explain it to me.

    Seems if you're unknown to existing members of the club, you can't join, correct?
    Sounds like some Ivy League club for bored rich people, Skull and Bones type thing where to swear allegiance to the lodge, you have to run around a field naked, is that possibly true?


    Much obliged.


  • #195
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Right. Now we've established the criteria, it seems to be an elitist club where Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. which is very vague but no doubt you can explain it to me.

    Seems if you're unknown to existing members of the club, you can't join, correct?
    Sounds like some Ivy League club for bored rich people, Skull and Bones type thing where to swear allegiance to the lodge, you have to run around a field naked, is that possibly true?


    Much obliged.

    Jeez, what did your last slave die of anyway? The email addresss is office@freemason.ie .
    Stick on yer tinfoil hat and direct your questions to the recruitment section there, you seem to have a lot to ask.

    So what, they don't want anyone with a criminal conviction, neither does the girl guides. Thats their own choice. If they did accept criminals then you would definitely find a criminal conspiracy.

    How does this relate to jimmy saville anyway, Answer me that?


  • #196
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    I don't much care for the Masons, but there is no proof Savile ever was one.


  • #197
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Armelodie wrote: »

    How does this relate to jimmy saville anyway, Answer me that?

    It doesn't - it's a complete distraction, unless someone can prove that Savile was ever, at any time, a Freemason.


  • #198
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Jeez, what did your last slave die of anyway? The email addresss is office@freemason.ie .
    Stick on yer tinfoil hat and direct your questions to the recruitment section there, you seem to have a lot to ask.

    Oh my, how original. You're too funny, must have taken you a while to think of that one.
    Anyway...Absolam is a Freemason, why would I need to email anyone?
    How does this relate to jimmy saville anyway, Answer me that?

    The flip side is why else would Jimmy Saville get away for 50 years abusing children? Not an easy question to answer but have a go anyway.


  • #199
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    porsche959 wrote: »
    It doesn't - it's a complete distraction, unless someone can prove that Savile was ever, at any time, a Freemason.

    No, he probably wasn't a mason but can you explain how he managed to evade arrest and conviction for abusing children over a 50 year career?


  • #200
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    porsche959 wrote: »
    I don't much care for the Masons, but there is no proof Savile ever was one.

    There was members of a quasi-masonic type group represented at his funeral. This group has not been investigated to the best of my knowledge.

    freemasonsswarmsavilles.jpg


  • #201
    Torakx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    Lets start digging :)

    Opps I just realized that could be taken out of context...
    I meant for clues.


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  • #202
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    But what is only starting to emerge from this horror story is the extent to which the police appeared to have enabled Savile to claim he was untouchable. This week, a retired Leeds policeman has claimed that “there wasn’t a copper in the city who didn’t know Savile was a pervert”.

    The ex-Leeds City Police officer, speaking under the alias Paul Leonard, said that in 1965 he had come across Savile’s Rolls-Royce parked in a secluded lay-by near Roundhay Golf Club.

    The then DJ and fledgling television presenter reportedly warned: “I’m waiting for midnight when she turns 16… so p--s off if you want to keep your job.” After reporting the incident to a sergeant, Leonard says he was told: “Shut up, son. He’s got friends in high places.”
    Clearly, Savile relished boasting of his friends in blue, but it is not clear how far that influence extended. In the early Sixties, according to his autobiography, he referred to another brush with the law, when he was approached by police asking him to help trace a missing girl.

    “If she comes in, I’ll bring her back tomorrow but I’ll keep her all night first as my reward,” Savile told a female officer who had gone to question him. He went on: “The lady of the law… was dissuaded from bringing charges against me by her colleagues, for it was well known that were I to go I would probably take half the station with me.”

    No doubt.

    How far did police go to protect Jimmy Savile?


  • #203
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    enno99 wrote: »
    Ah sure I was talking about the ones you alluded to but you know that right you just go ahead and ignore the bit where I said men and freemasons if it helps
    I was already being nice and ignoring the fact that you made a statement as if it were your own then attributed it by means of of a hyperlink at the end; if you're intent on ignoring things like quotation marks, and full stops between sentences, you can hardly chastise me for thinking you don't distinguish between plural and singular, particularly when you used the word 'him' between 'men' and 'freemasons' instead of 'them' (which you've so kindly corrected since).
    To your apparent point then; in 'this instance' there has been no evidence presented that there were any Freemasons in his social circles, I merely said it was unlikely that there were none. If you consider their (theoretical) failure to act against Saville an epic failure then you're admitting that Freemasonry does endeavour to make good men better, which is good enough for me. The possibility that if these people existed that Freemasonry failed to make them sufficiently better than everybody else around Saville is sad but hardly damning.


  • #204
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Shocking that some masons on this forum would defend pedophilia among masons like those in North Wales.
    Keith Gregory suffered two years of mental, physical and sexual abuse at the Bryn Estyn children’s home.

    Mr Gregory, now a councillor in Wrexham, said he was regularly driven out of the home by staff to a hotel where he was sexually assaulted. He claimed up to 13 other victims had committed suicide.

    Mr Gregory told BBC Radio 5 Live he is convinced the abusers escaped justice through Masonic loyalty.

    He said: “Most of them were Freemasons. There were two MPs, senior judges, serving police officers, senior police officers, market traders, business people from Wrexham – but there were people from all over Britain.

    “One MP was a Conservative but I’m not sure of the other.”

    He added: “Everyone at Bryn Estyn used to cry themselves to sleep every night.”

    Prime Minister David Cameron has ordered an investigation.

    Jimmy Savile was also a regular visitor to this home.
    Shameful but unsurprising masons would trivialize abuse of children.

    'Care home paedophiles were masons’


  • #205
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    There was members of a quasi-masonic type group represented at his funeral. This group has not been investigated to the best of my knowledge.

    freemasonsswarmsavilles.jpg

    Interesting. The younger guys in uniform are probably Royal Marines, not sure about the older ones in the suits and ribbons with insignia, their robes do look quasi-masonic right enough.

    As regards his military connetions, I quote from a post on politics.ie, although when I checked the link politics.ie poster took the info, it appears to be defunct - cover up job in progress, surprise surprise!
    Over an extended period Sir Jimmy completed the Commando Training Course at Lympstone, Devon. In 1966 Sir Jimmy and his brother Vince, then a serving officer with the Royal Navy, completed the gruelling 30 mile march over Dartmoor which has to be done in 8 hours. Jimmy and Vince both finished the march and Jimmy was awarded the coveted green beret.

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/198574-jimmy-savile-his-proven-long-term-connections-british-army.html


  • #206
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Honestly, I'd like to establish some contacts within the criminal underworld and the Freemasons seems like a reasonably good place to start.
    That does seem like a good reason not to have you as a member in fairness...
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    To be serious though, why don't you tell me how to join? I'd really love to know.
    But not because you want to join, right? Or you want to join because you want to establish contacts with the criminal underworld? Was that another porkie pie?
    I think you want to know how to join because you're looking for something negative to say, but can't even look for it yourself, you'd rather someone gave it to you...
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Right. Now we've established the criteria, it seems to be an elitist club where Only individuals believed to be of good character are favourably considered for membership. which is very vague but no doubt you can explain it to me.
    And there we go. It's elitist because it only accepts individuals of good character. What a damning indictment.
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Seems if you're unknown to existing members of the club, you can't join, correct?
    Where did you get that idea from?
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Sounds like some Ivy League club for bored rich people, Skull and Bones type thing where to swear allegiance to the lodge, you have to run around a field naked, is that possibly true?
    And that one?
    I think you're starting to make things up again Harold.....
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Anyway...Absolam is a Freemason, why would I need to email anyone?
    Maybe because not having had any experience of you they might take you seriously for a while? Though I appreciate it might be a little more effort than asking everyone else to do things for you.
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    The flip side is why else would Jimmy Saville get away for 50 years abusing children? Not an easy question to answer but have a go anyway.
    That's not actually a flip side. The flip side would be 'How does this not relate to jimmy saville'. But I think I answered your question a while back.. "I've no doubt (and certainly no proof) that Saville had tremendous influence in British society and used that influence to deflect enquiries from his foul activities." That does not require either the involvement of Freemasons or cognitive dissonance on anyone's part.


  • #207
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    There was members of a quasi-masonic type group represented at his funeral. This group has not been investigated to the best of my knowledge
    Really? That's shocking. What kind of investigation were you thinking of? Only when you posted this exact same thing on the Freemasons thread there were quite a few pages discussing it, where you yourself agreed they were Knights of Saint Columba, an entirely non Masonic organisation. What further 'investigation' do you think was needed? Or did you just 'forget'?


  • #208
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Absolam wrote: »
    Really? That's shocking. What kind of investigation were you thinking of? Only when you posted this exact same thing on the Freemasons thread there were quite a few pages discussing it, where you yourself agreed they were Knights of Saint Columba, an entirely non Masonic organisation. What further 'investigation' do you think was needed? Or did you just 'forget'?

    http://www.ksc.org.uk/

    Quasi-masonic, no?

    Similar obsession with ritual and costumes.

    To clarify, for a "lay-person", you'd have to admit some of these Roman Catholic groups' costumes look a bit similar to Freemasons' insignia.


  • #209
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Shocking that some masons on this forum would defend pedophilia among masons like those in North Wales.
    I think that's another fib! I don't think you can quote a Mason on this forum defending pedophilia among Masons. Shocking that someone would resort to lies in order to smear an organisation they claim they want to join.
    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Shameful but unsurprising masons would trivialize abuse of children.
    Oh, that sounds like another porkie pie! Can you show us where a Mason has trivialised the abuse of children? I'm getting the impression that you'll bend the truth about anything at all, even the serious subject of child abuse, just so you can make a dig at Freemasons. You seem quite conflicted on this subject Harold?


  • #210
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Quasi-masonic, no?
    Well, no. Quite specifically non Masonic I would say? Since they don't claim any affiliation or attachment to any Masonic bodies, and vice versa.
    porsche959 wrote: »
    Similar obsession with ritual and costumes.
    Are you saying the organisations are obsessive, or the people in the organisations are obsessive? How exactly do you arrive at the conclusion it's an obsession? Would you say the Catholic Church is more or less obsessed than Freemasonry with ritual and costumes? Does that make the Catholic Church quasi-masonic?
    porsche959 wrote: »
    To clarify, for a "lay-person", you'd have to admit some of these Roman Catholic groups' costumes look a bit similar to Freemasons' insignia.
    To a lay person, they also look like Lord Mayors insignia. That doesn't make them (or Freemasons) quasi-Mayoral.


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  • #211
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Just to confirm the satanic ritual abuse. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pervert-mp-cyril-smith-was-pals-1546290

    This time with Saville friend, MP and fellow paedophile Knight Sir Cyril Smith.

    I've just been reading about the Gay guest house/ centre of child abuse Elm House and the death of the landlady after she started to talk. It's shocking. It truly is the scandal of our time.

    And then I read this:
    EXCLUSIVE: Secret service infiltrated paedophile group to 'blackmail establishment'

    BRITISH security services infiltrated and funded the notorious Paedophile Information Exchange in a covert operation to identify and possibly blackmail establishment figures, a Home Office whistleblower alleges.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2418254/MI5-Special-Branch-covered-Cyril-Smiths-abuse-boys-Police-dossier-handed-prosecutors-1970-went-missing-decades.html
    And absolam,

    I am still waiting on your explanation of how Saville could die a free man of old age despite raping the young and the old, the living and the dead over decades upon decades and not only that be given access to Royalty, high security institutions such as Downing St., Broadmoor and Buckingham Palace if he wasn't being protected.


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