Is Joe Schmidt concealing his hand?

blackcard · 30-08-2015 1:32pm #1

When Joe was in charge of Leinster, they were the most exciting club team in Europe scoring tries for fun. Since he became Irish manager, with the odd exception such as the last Scottish match in the 6N, we have played pragmatic, winning, but boring rugby. Scrum half box kicks or out half kicks and we contest the catches. We try and maul our way for a try and we don't offload in the tackle. The tactics have been successful bringing us two 6N and up to number 2 in the world rankings. However, I don't think our current method of playing will bring us far in the world cup. I appreciate that Joe may have some set plays up his sleeve but has he anything else? Is there an offloading game which he will unleash or a bold running game?

[Deleted User] · 30-08-2015 1:38pm

blackcard wrote: »

When Joe was in charge of Leinster, they were the most exciting club team in Europe scoring tries for fun. Since he became Irish manager, with the odd exception such as the last Scottish match in the 6N, we have played pragmatic, winning, but boring rugby. Scrum half box kicks or out half kicks and we contest the catches. We try and maul our way for a try and we don't offload in the tackle. The tactics have been successful bringing us two 6N and up to number 2 in the world rankings. However, I don't think our current method of playing will bring us far in the world cup. I appreciate that Joe may have some set plays up his sleeve but has he anything else? Is there an offloading game which he will unleash or a bold running game?

When he announces the squad tomorrow he'll also announce Deccie Kidney is coming back as backs coach and then we'll see sparks fly.

phog · 30-08-2015 1:39pm

He had Luke on the wing for that Scottish game.

Buer · 30-08-2015 1:40pm

In test rugby, you don't get the non-stop access to players and game time to be able to perfect that sort of game plan. The game we play is low risk but also has a high rate of success. We have guys playing together who rarely take the field with one another. That coupled with the fact that skill levels in Ireland aren't something that are as high as the likes of NZ from an early age makes it hard to play that sort of game with limited training time.

Maybe in another year, we'll be able to gel like that but we're not going to see slick moves between Sexton and Henshaw (6th start together yesterday) or Henshaw and Payne (also have 6 starts next to one another) and wingers who regularly change outside them.

blackcard · 30-08-2015 1:45pm

Buer wrote: »

In test rugby, you don't get the non-stop access to players and game time to be able to perfect that sort of game plan. The game we play is low risk but also has a high rate of success. We have guys playing together who rarely take the field with one another. That coupled with the fact that skill levels in Ireland aren't something that are as high as the likes of NZ from an early age makes it hard to play that sort of game with limited training time.

Maybe in another year, we'll be able to gel like that but we're not going to see slick moves between Sexton and Henshaw (6th start together yesterday) or Henshaw and Payne (also have 6 starts next to one another) and wingers who regularly change outside them.

Seriously? Sexton and Henshaw are professionals who have had numerous training sessions together over the last year and are currently in a period when they are together continuously for a couple of months.

Buer · 30-08-2015 1:50pm

blackcard wrote: »

Seriously? Sexton and Henshaw are professionals who have had numerous training sessions together over the last year and are currently in a period when they are together continuously for a couple of months.

You don't replicate match pace and pressure in training or come close to it. It's a different kettle of fish entirely. Henshaw is a young guy, getting up to speed with test rugby and being allowed concentrate on his own game in a position he never played before Schmidt asked him to play there in November.

They're not going to click immediate but I'd expect that we'll see more of it now in the next 5-10 test matches, hopefully.

aimee1 · 30-08-2015 1:50pm

blackcard wrote: »

Seriously? Sexton and Henshaw are professionals who have had numerous training sessions together over the last year and are currently in a period when they are together continuously for a couple of months.

ireland have 3 games with 3 different 9-10-12-13 selections. In the lead up to these games they have had those selections training together.

Our peak needs to come on the 4th and 11th of october, not in RWC warm up games. In the past year ireland beat SA and AUS as well as a second consecutive 6n.

A bit of Context required.

blackcard · 30-08-2015 1:55pm

aimee1 wrote: »

ireland have 3 games with 3 different 9-10-12-13 selections. In the lead up to these games they have had those selections training together.

Our peak needs to come on the 4th and 11th of october, not in RWC warm up games. In the past year ireland beat SA and AUS as well as a second consecutive 6n.

A bit of Context required.

I appreciate that now is not the time to peak and really hope that I am proved wrong in thinking that the style that we have played in the last two years will only bring us so far. It is low risk in that we are unlikely to concede too many tries but we are also unlikely to score many either

aimee1 · 30-08-2015 1:59pm

blackcard wrote: »

I appreciate that now is not the time to peak and really hope that I am proved wrong in thinking that the style that we have played in the last two years will only bring us so far. It is low risk in that we are unlikely to concede too many tries but we are also unlikely to score many either

well we have two consecutive 6n on points difference, so again CONTEXT

World cups are won on low risk. NZ won the last final 8-7

There has been something like only 6-7 tries scored in total in the last 5 RWC finals combined

blackcard · 30-08-2015 2:06pm

aimee1 wrote: »

well we have two consecutive 6n on points difference, so again CONTEXT

World cups are won on low risk. NZ won the last final 8-7

There has been something like only 6-7 tries scored in total in the last 5 RWC finals combined

If you read my first post, you will see that I acknowledge the 6 nations successes, I just don't think the same tactics will be successful in the World Cup. The likes of France will be too powerful for us just as the Welsh were yesterday

aimee1 · 30-08-2015 2:12pm

blackcard wrote: »

If you read my first post, you will see that I acknowledge the 6 nations successes, I just don't think the same tactics will be successful in the World Cup. The likes of France will be too powerful for us just as the Welsh were yesterday

the france game is 6 weeks away. Not next week. Wales have a different priority. So again, you need to take things in context. Wales are working to a different plan which has involved their first choice XV plus 4-5 others working as a group towards trying to get our of their group. Their prep for the RWC is going to be very different to ours.

They put out a dummy team in cardiff 3 weeks ago because of this. Irelands main concern from these games are two fold ...

1. gametime for players
2. minimal injuries, especially to key players.

CatFromHue · 30-08-2015 2:19pm

aimee1 wrote: »

ireland have 3 games with 3 different 9-10-12-13 selections. In the lead up to these games they have had those selections training together.

Our peak needs to come on the 4th and 11th of october, not in RWC warm up games. In the past year ireland beat SA and AUS as well as a second consecutive 6n.

A bit of Context required.

I'm wondering when we'll be putting our strongest team out

Sat 5 Sep Eng v Ire
Sat 19 Sep Ire v Can
Sun 27 Sep Ire v Rom
Sun 4 Oct Ire v Ita
Sun 11 Oct Fra v Ire

So it's two weeks between the England game and the start of the RWC and 4 weeks from the England game before the Italian one.

I'm guessing as strong as possible against England and then the Canadian and Romanian ones could be mixed strength games. Or it could be as strong as possible against England and Canada and then a second team out v Romania.

aimee1 · 30-08-2015 2:25pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm wondering when we'll be putting our strongest team out

Sat 5 Sep Eng v Ire
Sat 19 Sep Ire v Can
Sun 27 Sep Ire v Rom
Sun 4 Oct Ire v Ita
Sun 11 Oct Fra v Ire

So it's two weeks between the England game and the start of the RWC and 4 weeks from the England game before the Italian one.

I'm guessing as strong as possible against England and then the Canadian and Romanian ones could be mixed strength games. Or it could be as strong as possible against England and Canada and then a second team out v Romania.

hard to know but i reckon some players will have minimal gametime in the warm ups but will be involved in all 4 group games [injury permitting]

irishbucsfan · 30-08-2015 2:31pm

World Cup rugby is normally extremely intense and rarely produces open running or anything particularly intricate. The teams that have won the last 3 world cups have also generally been the teams with the best kicking game.

I think we'll see some new stuff but I don't see we'll see any change in approach.

aimee1 · 30-08-2015 2:34pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think we'll see some new stuff but I don't see we'll see any change in approach.

and the new stuff is likely to come off first phase/setpiece in opposition 22 as well

smiley_face · 30-08-2015 2:40pm

blackcard wrote: »

When Joe was in charge of Leinster, they were the most exciting club team in Europe scoring tries for fun. Since he became Irish manager, with the odd exception such as the last Scottish match in the 6N, we have played pragmatic, winning, but boring rugby. Scrum half box kicks or out half kicks and we contest the catches. We try and maul our way for a try and we don't offload in the tackle. The tactics have been successful bringing us two 6N and up to number 2 in the world rankings. However, I don't think our current method of playing will bring us far in the world cup. I appreciate that Joe may have some set plays up his sleeve but has he anything else? Is there an offloading game which he will unleash or a bold running game?

We have the players to execute the same style Leinster employed, but frustratingly we don't try to play that way.
I expect we will continue exactly as we did in the 6 Nations, which includes kicking away the ball when it's in our half, and waiting til we're near the opposition 22 before trying any back play through the hands, and the odd set-piece from the lineout.
The squad selection will probably tell you, if Bowe, Trimble, D Kearney and Fitz are all selected then forget about any flair moves, it will be kick chase all day long, boring but if we can get the lead early on it is a good way to defend a lead if done with precision.
Otherwise if Earls, Zebo and Jones are selected we might see some attacking running out wide. I hope to God we have some pace in the back line or this will be a very boring campaign of high ball tennis.

slingerz · 30-08-2015 2:43pm

It will be a strong team against England but I can't see it being full strength either

OldRio · 30-08-2015 2:52pm

I was working in England in 1991. The World Cup was hosted by the 5 Nations teams. England scored 11 tries in 6 games. 9 of those tries against USA and Italy. And yet they reached the final.
The newspapers and 'pundits' criticised the manner in which England played. And yet it produced results.

Therefore Gatland and others can do and say what they like but at the end of the day results are the only thing that matters in Cup competitions.

smiley_face · 30-08-2015 2:57pm

slingerz wrote: »

It will be a strong team against England but I can't see it being full strength either

I would absolutely pick a full strength team, and bench, as we need a proper test match to steel up the team.
We have to forget about the possibility of injuries now and just plow on with full commitment and deal with whatever injuries arise. We have plenty of strength in depth to carry on if we do get injuries against England and I include 9 and 10 in that.

aimee1 · 30-08-2015 2:58pm

smiley_face wrote: »

I would absolutely pick a full strength team, and bench, as we need a proper test match to steel up the team.
We have to forget about the possibility of injuries now and just plow on with full commitment and deal with whatever injuries arise. We have plenty of strength in depth to carry on if we do get injuries against England and I include 9 and 10 in that.

madigan at 9 and marmion at 10? whoever does best goes as a 9.5 ?

[Deleted User] · 30-08-2015 4:39pm

For many years Brazil's approach to football was always score more than you conceded and Italy's was defend defend defend and win one nil. Both successful approaches for them, one was entertaining for the viewer and one bored the hell out of the viewer. You have to play and style yourself to the skills and abilities of your players.

Personally I feel a big issue revolves around our scrum half, Murray is great at what he does and the game plan we have seen for the last few years but he suffers an inability to play a fast ball/game from the bottom of a ruck, I can't remember ever seeing him doing that consistently in a game. Reddan and Boss could do it and drove Leinster on in their golden years but with age they are losing the lungs and concentration to keep it up now. Leinster used to be devastating with fast ball, not letting defences set and keeping them constantly on the back foot and then pulling them left and right before blitzing a gap to score tries.

Now a lot of Ireland's tries are off set pieces and as a result can be easily defended unless you come up with some new play, playing in tight can be tedious and takes time and players have to be very accurate in what they are doing.

As to the OP's first post, Yes personally I always think that Joe likes holding his hand tight and not showing too much, he is right, as others have said and I said yesterday to my wife it's only a warm up game with very little at stake other than players getting a run out together in a semi competitive game and getting back up to speed.

I actually got more out of the first game against Wales, what I saw in that game was a lot of Joe's thoughts and practices having seeped all the way down to the "B" players, what I saw in that game was very encouraging. I saw players who at best would be on the fringe and only in with a chance if the first and second choices got injured. These players were still very accurate and executed the Joe plan.

irishbucsfan · 30-08-2015 4:58pm

Murray has played a quick game in the past. Ireland v Argentina in 2012 is the first example that comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ld-4rZg9HI

But he hasn't been asked to play that way much since. He won't be asked to play that way in the World Cup either.

lucky_luke · 30-08-2015 5:02pm

I think he will mostly stick to the conservative game plan. It's better to win ugly than lose with flashy play.

There was a good article about the German football team prior to the WC final. It talked about how Joachim Lowe had changed from stylish spectator soccer in 2012 to more pragmatic footie for 2014 and it worked

awec · 30-08-2015 6:19pm

I don't think we've been conservative under Schmidt. I think we've been pragmatic. Conservative rugby is up the jumper stuff and that's boring to watch.

We do attempt back moves, but there's no way Ireland are going to play like Leinster did under Schmidt.

penybont exile · 31-08-2015 9:08pm

To answer the thread title IMO .... No.

Anyone thinking Ireland are going to rock up with a new game plan are going to be disappointed. Ireland have a good team and a proven game plan. They need to bring this to the party and execute it a lot better than they managed on Saturday.

France will target them physically .... Remember the last 20 minutes of the 6N game this year. I think Ireland are susceptible to this approach and will find it difficult to counter.

irishbucsfan · 31-08-2015 9:10pm

penybont exile wrote: »

To answer the thread title IMO .... No.

Anyone thinking Ireland are going to rock up with a new game plan are going to be disappointed. Ireland have a good team and a proven game plan. They need to bring this to the party and execute it a lot better than they managed on Saturday.

France will target them physically .... Remember the last 20 minutes of the 6N game this year. I think Ireland are susceptible to this approach and will find it difficult to counter.

Warren Gatland disagrees with you though it seems!

“Look, I’m not being critical of Ireland. What Joe and that Irish team has achieved is absolutely outstanding. They’ve got a formula that has been successful for them. I’m sure they will tweak a few things and look to try and add things to their game.

“I’m sure they are very much like us – we haven’t brought everything to the table yet. Haven’t shown things, we are keeping things behind for the next few weeks because there is so much analysis going on if we showed everything we are going to do it is not going to be a surprise for that first big game which is going to be England in Twickenham.”

penybont exile · 31-08-2015 9:39pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Warren Gatland disagrees with you though it seems!

It's all BS for the media.

The reality is each team has a style of play which will be adhered to when the party starts. You can practice a few set-piece moves etc. but ultimately this doesn't change an awful lot.

It's a simple game. Players in situations will have a number of options open to them ranging from good to bad. It's up to the players on the pitch to choose the options at the good end of the spectrum and have the skills to execute on them. If Wales / Ireland can do this they can have an impact on the tournament as they both have solid, well trodden patterns of play.

(The AB's are the best because they are good at the art of option taking and they have a good skill set).

It's always been thus ...... The rest is the world we live in and the insatiable desire for column inches ........

molloyjh · 01-09-2015 8:15am

penybont exile wrote: »

It's all BS for the media.

The reality is each team has a style of play which will be adhered to when the party starts. You can practice a few set-piece moves etc. but ultimately this doesn't change an awful lot.

It's a simple game. Players in situations will have a number of options open to them ranging from good to bad. It's up to the players on the pitch to choose the options at the good end of the spectrum and have the skills to execute on them. If Wales / Ireland can do this they can have an impact on the tournament as they both have solid, well trodden patterns of play.

(The AB's are the best because they are good at the art of option taking and they have a good skill set).

It's always been thus ...... The rest is the world we live in and the insatiable desire for column inches ........

Ireland will vary their game. Joe has often talked about how if you stand still you'll get left behind. There's no way we're going to play the very same as we did in the 6 Nations.

Noopti · 01-09-2015 8:27am

He is most definitely concealing his hand. Why would any coach reveal anything in warm up matches? Those matches are there to ramp up fitness, to test some new combinations and further assess certain players - and you don't need to open up the playbook to do that. The management will have game plans for every group game, and they will most definitely be reserving certain tactics and plays for France.

There was always a perception, in my mind anyway, when Joe was with Leinster that he held back certain plays and tactics, only to reveal them when needed or in certain key games. And there were plenty of matches where Leinster would grind out wins.

This thing about Leinster cutting loose all the time, that is simply because Leinster played so many more games than Ireland. I'd say if you did some analysis on all of Leinster's games and which were dogfights and which were free flowing try fests you would probably find the ratio of one to the other is the same as with Ireland.

wittycynic · 01-09-2015 9:46am

penybont exile wrote: »

To answer the thread title IMO .... No.

Anyone thinking Ireland are going to rock up with a new game plan are going to be disappointed. Ireland have a good team and a proven game plan. They need to bring this to the party and execute it a lot better than they managed on Saturday.

France will target them physically .... Remember the last 20 minutes of the 6N game this year. I think Ireland are susceptible to this approach and will find it difficult to counter.

I agree that this is where Ireland are vulnerable. Our backrow can seem a little underpowered compared to some of the other units out there and there's definitely and argument for starting/using Henderson at 6 to add some extra firepower in that area of the pitch.

Similarly, there are question marks over the scrummaging ability of our reserve front row that will inevitably be introduced with fifteen minutes to go. I really hope that McGrath, Cronin, and White can stand up to their French counterparts in the set piece, as this could be a target area for penalties in final portions of the game.

But with that said, no team can excel in all areas, and even the All Blacks' pack has been thoroughly outmuscled at times. We're like any good team. If our key men are performing well and exhibiting accuracy in the execution of our gameplan, we'll probably win. If guys like Murray and Sexton play like they did at the weekend, we probably won't.

ManAboutCouch · 01-09-2015 10:36am

In all this talk of Joe not replicating Leinster's style with Ireland one thing seems to be overlooked: the international game is different. There is much less room, decisions have to be made a lot quicker and playing the percentages is more likely to be successful.

No doubt the Irish back room team have come up with a range of first or second phase plays that we haven't seen yet, but there's virtually no chance of a sudden switch to an offloading game with all sorts of fancy back moves. No team* plays like that in the business end of the World Cup.

(*Except France, sometimes)

Is Joe Schmidt concealing his hand?

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