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Tender Drawings, preparation Time Frame advice for Archi Technicians

  • 14-02-2021 6:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 44


    Hi Folks,

    Hope its OK to start a fresh tread on this (had a look around and couldn't find an existing tread to match)

    Ultimately I'm an Architectural Technician who has only recently returned to the profession and looking for some advice on time frames for producing tender drawings.

    For context I do a lot of drafting for Architects & Engineers and would normally quote 'xxx' amount of hours to complete a tender set of drawings but increasingly I have had Arch/Engineer clients push back claiming that is too long..

    So I would love feedback/advice on what the average time frame for producing a complete set of tender drawings and documents from others in the profession?

    For consistency let's say your guesstimating the time frame for producing the tender drawings and documents for a fairly standard 5 Bed one off house in the country side, nothing overly complicated, double fronted, porch, to meet latest regulations (tender only planning already complete) how long would it take start to finish? 4 weeks, 5 weeks etc.?


Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    The question is job specific. But you could be breaking down the drawing list and assigning hours beside them, then if there’s a question over time you start removing drawings.. ie less tender cost certainty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ajarms86


    BryanF wrote: »
    The question is job specific. But you could be breaking down the drawing list and assigning hours beside them, then if there’s a question over time you start removing drawings.. ie less tender cost certainty.

    Hey Bryan,

    Yeah thanks, that is definatly an idea that I will look at on larger jobs, but on most of these tighter jobs we have all ready shrunk the drawing pack as much as possible, there is a certain number of drawings that every tender needs for a builder to price off and ultimately build off too.

    Suppose I was hoping other Technicians would come back and say -
    'yes for a standard, stand-alone 5 bed house in the country side, to produce 20 or so drawings, (plans, elevations, sections and details enough to gét the project priced & built) it usually takes 5 or 6 weeks - or somthing to that effect,
    just to guage how long it normally takes as I'm only back in the business a year or so I have no real comparisons to draw from


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,951 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The more you do the quicker you become.

    a lot of that has to do with the fact that you will be repeating and reusing details, schedules etc plus youll just get faster at drafting.

    the single biggest issue though is the level of detail yo want to go with for the tender package. remember these aren't "construction" drawings, they are tender documents.
    I find a lot of contractors will have their own ways of doing certain things, regardless of your spec or detail. So spending ages doing mech and elec layouts ect is normally a complete waste of time.

    Use a "performance spec" rather than a "prescribed spec" and quote standards everywhere.
    for example windows. Get the required u value and glazing spec from your assessor (or maybe you do that yourself) and just use that for the document. Dont go as far as specifying makes and models at tender stage as most of the time the client will choose their won supplier, or the contractor will have favoured suppliers.

    as an example of my tender package, its usually 5 or 6 A1s with a very detailed written spec. Drawings-wise i do general arrangement plans, foundation plan, elevations (1:100), sections through any obvious required areas (usually 2 or 3).. all at 1:50 other than the elevations.
    A window schedule and mostly common details (6 or 7 at 1:10). The written spec if the key though, it covers pretty much everything apart from the type of nails or screws) as its been over 20 years in the making. however i know for a fact most of the time a contractor would give it a cursory glace at best, but its very valuable if theres an on site issue.

    id never spend more than say 25 hrs in total, i dont think the market would pay me for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    4 or 5 weeks to way too long. that is crazy if it is just a fairly routine run of the mill one off house.

    Well, see if you are starting off from scratch and have to make up families and everything and title blocks and sheet layouts, then yes, it might take you that long. But people will generally have a library of all that stuff build up that they can just drag and drop into their project.

    Also, I agree performance spec is an option so you can avoid detailing everything out to the last screw You can, but even if you do, the contractor will just come back with a load of proposals for alternatives.. Performance spec is fine then you have to be sure that the engineer is actually going to be hands on and check that the components proposed by the contractor actually satsifies the spec, rather than just blindly accepting whatever muck the contractor decides to throw at it. It happens. A lot. Contractors will often knowingly chance throwing in sub-spec items if they think they might get away with it. If pulled up on it they feign ignorance or oversight. It is anything but - they are cute hurrs and know exactly what they are doing. Another common tactic is to bamboozle the engineer by delaying and then proposing a whole raft of stuff very late in the game with the pressure on. Their hope is that the engineer will not have the time or will to go through every little thing, and approve stuff that isn't quite up to spec. In my experience, it is largely all cloaks and daggers game.

    Another risk of performance specification is that you could, in some cases, be leaving decisions on components and their layout and installation up to the contractor. In some cases that could be considered as giving them some limited design role. Grand, but the problem is - is the contractor actually competent to do those bits of design?
    I mean all well and good while everything runs smoothly, but when something goes wrong or there is an accident and injury, it'll be picked apart. Did the engineer, by using a performance spec, knowingly devolve an element of design & specification onto the contractor, knowing that a house building works contractor would be unlikely to be competent to undertake such design? The engineer needs to be able to answer yes to that question. If not, they better get used to the idea of early retirement.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,951 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ...
    I mean all well and good while everything runs smoothly, but when something goes wrong or there is an accident and injury, it'll be picked apart. Did the engineer, by using a performance spec, knowingly devolve an element of design & specification onto the contractor, knowing that a house building works contractor would be unlikely to be competent to undertake such design? The engineer needs to be able to answer yes to that question. If not, they better get used to the idea of early retirement.


    when i say "performance spec" im not talking about letting the contractor design his own foundations.... these are one off domestic builds, not shopping centres.

    im talking about giving a specification like, say, windows to be uPVC 1.2 w/m2k U value and solar transmittance of 0.4 or better.

    now once the windows that are supplied comply (obviously tested and certified) then the tender requirement is fulfilled.

    the same with air tightness. You give the contractor a performance level to meet, you detail typical junctions and how they are dealt with re air tightness, but you dont detail every single junction and say "if you do this then then you meet the regs". Performance standards need to be met.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    yeah if it is limited to components like that then it is manageable.

    However, I have in my time seen construction stage drawings that were previously run of the mill planning drawings with note added saying "all works to comply with current building regulations" and that was the extent of the specification.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,951 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    yeah if it is limited to components like that then it is manageable.

    However, I have in my time seen construction stage drawings that were previously run of the mill planning drawings with note added saying "all works to comply with current building regulations" and that was the extent of the specification.

    yep seen those often myself, and id never consider them construction drawings.. they're glorified planning drawings. :D

    Like anything there are different types of contractors out there. There are those who are a joy to work with, will phone if they have any questions, re willing to learn and do new things... and there are those who are as immovable as an oil tanker with the usual line "this is how we've always done it" coming out daily.

    when it comes to putting my time into drawing and specifying ive learnt through experience what is usually required and what is a waste of time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Hmm. we know the type of drawings all too well. Complete with north point facing the wrong direction, or perhaps two conflicting norths, and irrelevant stuff copy and pasted from previous jobs. Perhaps even the wrong client or project name down for good measure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ajarms86


    Hey Folks thanks for the comments and feedback so far, really helpful,

    So based on my original example the consensus so far is 4-5 weeks is far too long, but this is heavily influenced by the level of detail and the use of standard details and spec and there-in lies the crux and maybe another question to add.

    When I first finished college it was a given that 'Tender' Drawings and 'Construction' drawings where two seperate beasts with their own induvidial levels of detail.

    But again since returning to the business and increasingly more often I have Engineer & Architect clients request that my 'Tender' drawings are good enough to 'go to site' - is this the norm these days?

    Also I am (where possible) using my 'standard details' but I find that more ofton they mearly act as a good starting point, but always need to be edited updated to suit the project at hand, and generally only save hours as opposed to days off my overall workload.

    Maybe I need to adjust my original question to: how long does it take to produce complete site specific construction level drawings for the example above?

    More feedback - discussion very welcome :)


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    ajarms86 wrote: »
    Hey Bryan,

    Yeah thanks, that is definatly an idea that I will look at on larger jobs, but on most of these tighter jobs we have all ready shrunk the drawing pack as much as possible, there is a certain number of drawings that every tender needs for a builder to price off and ultimately build off too.

    Suppose I was hoping other Technicians would come back and say -
    'yes for a standard, stand-alone 5 bed house in the country side, to produce 20 or so drawings, (plans, elevations, sections and details enough to gét the project priced & built) it usually takes 5 or 6 weeks - or somthing to that effect,
    just to guage how long it normally takes as I'm only back in the business a year or so I have no real comparisons to draw from

    May I ask how long your in business?
    Roughly what the hourly contracting rate is?
    Who takes on the liability?
    What further involvement do you have? Tender clarifications etc

    appreciate I’m not answering your question but I know graduates contracting for €15-20 and experienced senior guys for €40-50 per hour. The latter won’t get 5 weeks to do a domestic package but the former might.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ajarms86


    BryanF wrote: »
    May I ask how long your in business?
    Roughly what the hourly contracting rate is?
    Who takes on the liability?
    What further involvement do you have? Tender clarifications etc

    appreciate I’m not answering your question but I know graduates contracting for €15-20 and experienced senior guys for €40-50 per hour. The latter won’t get 5 weeks to do a domestic package but the former might.

    Hey Bryan yeah valid enough point in the questions though, about 2 years all told, I worked directly for few Architecture firms and Engineers etc. all during collage, stopped for.... well the crash back in '08 and only got back into it 2 years ago,
    Clients (Architect/Engineer) takes on liability, some involvement after tender, mainly changes or clarifying stuff for the Architect with the builder but no I would not be certifying anything.
    Generally speaking I would be falling into €20-25 bracket, I do the drafting, 3D modelling and Specification with oversight/input from whichever engineer/architect is over-seeing the project.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Tender drawings are pretty near enough to the construction drawings. They have to be. They have to be detailed enough to allow the tenderers to price the work accurately. But they may have some items not fully detailed out, like rebar, levels and setting out information. Other things might be detailed up in a preliminary form and subject to adjustments and minor refinement.

    All being ideal, tender drawings could be used as construction drawings. However, there are always adjustments and updates between tender and construction in reality. It all depends on the scale and complexity of the job, and how much attention to detail has been given at tender drawing stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ajarms86


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    The more you do the quicker you become.

    a lot of that has to do with the fact that you will be repeating and reusing details, schedules etc plus youll just get faster at drafting.

    the single biggest issue though is the level of detail yo want to go with for the tender package. remember these aren't "construction" drawings, they are tender documents.
    I find a lot of contractors will have their own ways of doing certain things, regardless of your spec or detail. So spending ages doing mech and elec layouts ect is normally a complete waste of time.

    Use a "performance spec" rather than a "prescribed spec" and quote standards

    as an example of my tender package, its usually 5 or 6 A1s with a very detailed written spec. Drawings-wise i do general arrangement plans, foundation plan, elevations (1:100), sections through any obvious required areas (usually 2 or 3).. all at 1:50 other than the elevations.
    A window schedule and mostly common details (6 or 7 at 1:10). The written spec if the key though, it covers pretty much everything apart from the type of nails or screws) as its been over 20 years in the making. however i know for a fact most of the time a contractor would give it a cursory glace at best, but its very valuable if theres an on site issue.

    id never spend more than say 25 hrs in total, i dont think the market would pay me for it.


    Finally getting a chance to re-read all the comments in detail, some great info in here Syd thanks.

    Can I ask: would you normally find you stick to the same detail build-up, i.e. Same cavity wall, same cold/warm roof, same floor build up every time or does this change much?

    part of the challenge recently has definatly been having to completly re-imagine these build-ups with each new job, partly to do with clients wanting different construction methods.

    Also wow 25 hours and there's me worrying about getting it all done in 60 hours lol.

    Think I will set 25hrs as my new target and start developing up some more standardised details/documents 🀓


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,951 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ajarms86 wrote: »
    Finally getting a chance to re-read all the comments in detail, some great info in here Syd thanks.

    Can I ask: would you normally find you stick to the same detail build-up, i.e. Same cavity wall, same cold/warm roof, same floor build up every time or does this change much?

    part of the challenge recently has definatly been having to completly re-imagine these build-ups with each new job, partly to do with clients wanting different construction methods.

    Also wow 25 hours and there's me worrying about getting it all done in 60 hours lol.

    Think I will set 25hrs as my new target and start developing up some more standardised details/documents ��

    well i guess, as ive said, that theres a market value for this, and if youre too expensive then the market will go elsewhere. Within those 25 hours there a lot of reproduction of previous info, and checking of applicable text to the particular project.

    on your first question, the answer to that is yes.... the vast majority of details are repeated, and, as they are 'tender' drawings and not 'for construction' drawings, i dont get bogged down in very specific details at tender stage.

    this does lead to defensive specifications, but the bureaucracy around acceptable construction details and compliance with DEAP requirements leads a lot of designers and builders to be very repetitive with their specs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭kieran.


    ajarms86 wrote: »

    Think I will set 25hrs as my new target and start developing up some more standardised details/documents 🀓

    I'm with Syd on his timings. We are roughly 4-5 days to turn around a set of working drawings and a schedule of work for a one off house.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    kieran. wrote: »
    I'm with Syd on his timings. We are roughly 4-5 days to turn around a set of working drawings and a schedule of work for a one off house.

    Fup me! Take me a month!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,811 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Fup me! Take me a month!!!
    You're being paid by the hour so :D


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    muffler wrote: »
    You're being paid by the hour so :D

    I wish!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭kieran.


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Fup me! Take me a month!!!

    A month you would need to be getting well paid for those drawings!!
    We have one lad on tender/construction drawings for one-off houses 50% of his time. He has built up a good system and library of details. We did a house recently with a passive slab, externally insulated and warm monopitched roofs and all details need to drafted from scratch it added 3 days to the project approx.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    kieran. wrote: »
    A month you would need to be getting well paid for those drawings!!

    I should be getting you guys to do them for me!!! :P

    More typically my jobs would involve (relatively complex) extensions to existing houses typically with alterations and refurbishment works to the existing house.

    I would normally produce for tender....existing/demolition drawings (plans, section and elevations), GA drawings (plans, sections and elevations), a couple of detail sections, services plans, external/site works drawings (existing/demolition and GA), and, window/external door and joinery schedule drawings.

    All tender drawings are prepared as construction drawings.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭kieran.


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    I should be getting you guys to do them for me!!! :P

    More typically my jobs would involve (relatively complex) extensions to existing houses typically with alterations and refurbishment works to the existing house.

    I would normally produce for tender....existing/demolition drawings (plans, section and elevations), GA drawings (plans, sections and elevations), a couple of detail sections, services plans, external/site works drawings (existing/demolition and GA), and, window/external door and joinery schedule drawings.

    All tender drawings are prepared as construction drawings.

    I do find large extensions/ refurbishments extremely time consuming at all stages. Big ideas, unrealistic budgets, difficult building/site constraints are time draining.

    Your drawing schedule would be similar to ours we seldom do joinery schedules though.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,951 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    extension almost always take longer than one offs.... especially post planning stages.

    clients never seem to realise that though

    my last extension was about 200% the size of the existing terraced house, timber frame build... and needed NZEB checking for compliance.
    easily took me longer than doing a tender pack for a one off


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