Dublin Marathon 2010

pdiddyw · 28-09-2010 11:58am

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi pdiddyw, are you following an established training plan, or do you run more by feel alone? Marathon programs typically include a taper, where you reduce your training mileage for the last 2-3 weeks before the marathon, so your body has a chance to recover and start to conserve energy before the big race. So typically the mileage will be reduced by around 30% per week, until the big day. This doesn't suggest you can out your feet up and stop running. The general idea is that you reduce mileage but maintain the same levels of quality (intensity) of your running).

If you look at HalHigdon's intermediate 1 plan, you can see how the mileage is cut back for the last three weeks of training. Plan here

thanks for that will check it out....
I'm not following a traing plan as such...usually about head out about 3/4 times a week and try and get in a long run once a week..usually at wkends....but have been increasing milage week by week etc...

RubyK · 28-09-2010 11:59am

4 stars (good)

Sounds like a good plan there - best to get a couple of days rest before Sunday.

I won't be in Athlone (a bit too far for me to travel), but I will be doing a lonesome 20 miler all the same

Best of luck with it! It will be a great confidence booster before the big day.

Krusty_Clown · 28-09-2010 1:42pm

3 stars (average)

pdiddyw wrote: »

thanks for that will check it out....
I'm not following a traing plan as such...usually about head out about 3/4 times a week and try and get in a long run once a week..usually at wkends....but have been increasing milage week by week etc...

If you're not following a training plan, then make sure you factor a taper into your final 2-3 weeks. In fact using some form of training plan as a template is probably a good idea as the structure will help you to avoid injury and over-training (which will leave you tired and stale for the race).

sideswipe · 28-09-2010 2:25pm

4 stars (good)

Right that's me booked in for this, now just have to decide what time to aim for.

I have put my half marathon time (1:42) into McMillan and it puts me at 3:37, anyone any opinions as to which pace group I'd be better going out with the 3;30 or 3:45. I'm afraid of aiming too high and blowing up or too slow and selling myself short after all the training which has gone well. I hope to do my 4th 20 miler this weekend (running at about 8:30 pace)

RayCun · 28-09-2010 2:40pm

4 stars (good)

sideswipe wrote: »

I have put my half marathon time (1:42) into McMillan and it puts me at 3:37, anyone any opinions as to which pace group I'd be better going out with the 3;30 or 3:45. I'm afraid of aiming too high and blowing up or too slow and selling myself short after all the training which has gone well. I hope to do my 4th 20 miler this weekend (running at about 8:30 pace)

you're running too fast!
A 3.37 marathon is 8.17 pace, you should be going more than 10 seconds slower than that on your training run.

If it were me, I'd go with the 3.45 pacer, and speed up in the last few miles.
NB. 3.45 is 8:36 pace - slower than your training run :rolleyes:

sideswipe · 28-09-2010 2:51pm

4 stars (good)

RayCun wrote: »

you're running too fast!
A 3.37 marathon is 8.17 pace, you should be going more than 10 seconds slower than that on your training run.

If it were me, I'd go with the 3.45 pacer, and speed up in the last few miles.
NB. 3.45 is 8:36 pace - slower than your training run :rolleyes:

Thanks ray, I am brutal at following a structured plan. I know I'm probably making a right mess of the pacing when it comes to the training runs but I actually seem to have two speeds - run and walk!
I really need to start thinking about the type of miles I run rather that the amount! Although it's probably too late for DCM to correct my training pace up (or down) depending on the type of session required.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 4:10pm

4 stars (good)

sideswipe wrote: »

Thanks ray, I am brutal at following a structured plan. I know I'm probably making a right mess of the pacing when it comes to the training runs but I actually seem to have two speeds - run and walk!
I really need to start thinking about the type of miles I run rather that the amount! Although it's probably too late for DCM to correct my training pace up (or down) depending on the type of session required.

Hey sideswipe I am pretty much the same re: pace. I have been following Hal Higdons novice schedule to prepare for this years marathon but I find it very hard to run slowly!
I have been running for about 2 years on average 2/3 times (coming from a soccer playing background).
Up until my training this year a 1/2 marathon was the longest I had run and a few 10K's. PB for 10K is 46min and 1/2 is 1H 45 (that was Achill which is pretty hilly).

I usually do my shorter runs at 7:30 mile pace and my long-ish run at 8 min pace. I have been trying to keep my long run slow but usually end up running about 8:00 pace. I did an 18 miler on Sunday at 8:10 pace and felt great, planning a 20 miler for this weekend and no doubt I'll do it at the same.

Is the above pacing mad? I am hoping with a good couple of weeks tapering I'll be ready for the big one. I would be delighted with a sub 4.

- The man who can't slow down!

sideswipe · 28-09-2010 4:19pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

Hey sideswipe I am pretty much the same re: pace. I have been following Hal Higdons novice schedule to prepare for this years marathon but I find it very hard to run slowly!
I have been running for about 2 years on average 2/3 times (coming from a soccer playing background).
Up until my training this year a 1/2 marathon was the longest I had run and a few 10K's. PB for 10K is 46min and 1/2 is 1H 45 (that was Achill which is pretty hilly).

I usually do my shorter runs at 7:30 mile pace and my long-ish run at 8 min pace. I have been trying to keep my long run slow but usually end up running about 8:00 pace. I did an 18 miler on Sunday at 8:10 pace and felt great, planning a 20 miler for this weekend and no doubt I'll do it at the same.

Is the above pacing mad? I am hoping with a good couple of weeks tapering I'll be ready for the big one. I would be delighted with a sub 4.

- The man who can't slow down!

I'm far from being an expert, in fact I'm just here waiting for one to come along and put me wise re my own pacing and achievable targets!! So it's really not for me to say your pacing is mad, but your times seem to have you WELL on target for a sub 4, good luck with the rest of your training.

menoscemo · 28-09-2010 4:23pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

Hey sideswipe I am pretty much the same re: pace. I have been following Hal Higdons novice schedule to prepare for this years marathon but I find it very hard to run slowly!
I have been running for about 2 years on average 2/3 times (coming from a soccer playing background).
Up until my training this year a 1/2 marathon was the longest I had run and a few 10K's. PB for 10K is 46min and 1/2 is 1H 45 (that was Achill which is pretty hilly).

I usually do my shorter runs at 7:30 mile pace and my long-ish run at 8 min pace. I have been trying to keep my long run slow but usually end up running about 8:00 pace. I did an 18 miler on Sunday at 8:10 pace and felt great, planning a 20 miler for this weekend and no doubt I'll do it at the same.

Is the above pacing mad? I am hoping with a good couple of weeks tapering I'll be ready for the big one. I would be delighted with a sub 4.

- The man who can't slow down!

Your 10k race pace is 7:30/mile and your HM Race pace is 8:00 per mile (1hr45). You are basically doing all your Long Runs just a little slower than Half Marthon pace? :eek:
Unless you have significantly improved, you should be really running your LSR's about 2 minutes slower than Half Marathon pace (yes 10 minute miles). The S in LSR stands for slow

menoscemo · 28-09-2010 4:25pm

4 stars (good)

sideswipe wrote: »

I'm far from being an expert, in fact I'm just here waiting for one to come along and put me wise re my own pacing and achievable targets!! So it's really not for me to say your pacing is mad, but your times seem to have you WELL on target for a sub 4, good luck with the rest of your training.

Sub 4 is 9:09 per mile. Your long runs should be slower than planned marathon pace (PMP), not a minute per mile faster.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 4:34pm

4 stars (good)

menoscemo wrote: »

Sub 4 is 9:09 per mile. Your long runs should be slower than planned marathon pace (PMP), not a minute per mile faster.

I realize that sub 4 is 9:00 but when I slow to this pace for my LSR I just feel uncomfortable and like I'm not putting it in so I push on.
I guess my real question is why would you run slower over a shorter distance than you hope to run in the marathon? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me? And will my pacing have any adverse effect on the day?

I dont think I would be able to run the full marathon at 8:10, barring disaster I would hope that 8:40 would be achievable so I'll aim for sub 4 and secretly hope to go closer to 3:45.

menoscemo · 28-09-2010 4:49pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

I realize that sub 4 is 9:00 but when I slow to this pace for my LSR I just feel uncomfortable and like I'm not putting it in so I push on.
I guess my real question is why would you run slower over a shorter distance than you hope to run in the marathon? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me? And will my pacing have any adverse effect on the day?

I dont think I would be able to run the full marathon at 8:10, barring disaster I would hope that 8:40 would be achievable so I'll aim for sub 4 and secretly hope to go closer to 3:45.

If you train at a slower intensity, it allows you to spend more time on your feet. If you run 20 miles at 10 minute/mile pace that's 3hrs 20 on your feet and moving, that is the whole point of LSR's, getting used to being a long time on your feet. If I run 20 miles slow, my legs are just as tired (if not more so) than if I run 20 miles fast, so the benefit in terms of getting your legs used to the longer distance is the same.

Speed development is what you should be doing during your shorter midweek runs.

Running at a lower intensity also helps your body develop it's fat burning capabilities. Come the big day your body will only have about 18-20 miles worth of Glycogen stored up, so it needs to be burning some fat aswell as glycogen in order to last the 26.2 miles. If you run all your Long Runs at a high intensity (and your short runs even faster) you will be burning pure Glycogen all the time. Glycogen will not be enough on the day (running out of Glycogen is also known as hitting the wall).

By doing all your training at a high intensity you are also severely increasing your chances of burn-out and injury. many marathon runners will talk about leaving their race on the training ground and having nothing left come the big day (i.e. over training).

Any training programe you will find advises running LSR's at anythin between 10-20% slower than PMP (though many LSR's would include several miles @ PMP). for the reasons listed above.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 4:56pm

4 stars (good)

menoscemo wrote: »

If you train at a slower intensity, it allows you to spend more time on your feet. If you run 20 miles at 10 minute/mile pace that's 3hrs 20 on your feet and moving, that is the whole point of LSR's, getting used to being a long time on your feet. If I run 20 miles slow, my legs are just as tired (if not more so) than if I run 20 miles fast, so the benefit in terms of getting your legs used to the longer distance is the same.

Speed development is what you should be doing during your shorter midweek runs.

Running at a lower intensity also helps your body develop it's fat burning capabilities. Come the big day your body will only have about 18-20 miles worth of Glycogen stored up, so it needs to be burning some fat aswell as glycogen in order to last the 26.2 miles. If you run all your Long Runs at a high intensity (and your short runs even faster) you will be burning pure Glycogen all the time. Glycogen will not be enough on the day (running out of Glycogen is also known as hitting the wall).

By doing all your training at a high intensity you are also severely increasing your chances of burn-out and injury. many marathon runners will talk about leaving their race on the training ground and having nothing left come the big day (i.e. over training).

Any training programe you will find advises running LSR's at anythin between 10-20% slower than PMP (though many LSR's would include several miles @ PMP). for the reasons listed above.

Thanks alot for that reply menoscemo, a little worried now that I have made a fundamental error in my training. I'll try to slow down my long run this weekend a bit

menoscemo · 28-09-2010 5:04pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

Thanks alot for that reply menoscemo, a little worried now that I have made a fundamental error in my training. I'll try to slow down my long run this weekend a bit

Don't worry about it too much at this stage. To be honest if you are capable of running 18 miles in training at 8:10 pace, then you are probably selling yourself short going for a 4Hr marathon.

I Forgot to mention that by running slower you get to enjoy your running more- proabably the best benefit of all :pac:
Last year i did all my training for DCM at or faster than marathon pace and never relly enjoyed it (sorry to say but I hit the wall at 19 miles last year

).
This year I train at least twice a week at a slower pace (with the other runs much faster than before) and enjoy it all much more. My times have also improved significatly all year an I haven't got injured.

TFBubendorfer · 28-09-2010 5:09pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

I guess my real question is why would you run slower over a shorter distance than you hope to run in the marathon? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me?

Because when you're training you will be required to run again the next day or two and if you tire yourself out so much that you need 3 days of recovery, you have done more harm than good.

Race day, on the other hand, is a one-off. That aim is to give it all and afterwards you can take as much recovery as you need.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 5:12pm

4 stars (good)

menoscemo wrote: »

Don't worry about it too much at this stage. To be honest if you are capable of running 18 miles in training at 8:10 pace, then you are probably selling yourself short going for a 4Hr marathon.

I Forgot to mention that by running slower you get to enjoy your running more- proabably the best benefit of all :pac:
Last year i did all my training for DCM at or faster than marathon pace and never relly enjoyed it (sorry to say but I hit the wall at 19 miles last year ).
This year I train at least twice a week at a slower pace (with the other runs much faster than before) and enjoy it all much more. My times have also improved significantly all year an I haven't got injured.

I have been steady enough with the miles build up this year and have been lucky enough to steer clear of injury (training for a 1/2 marathon last year I got planta facitus after a quick build up of miles)

Were you able to finish after hitting "the wall"?

menoscemo · 28-09-2010 5:14pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

Were you able to finish after hitting "the wall"?

Oh yes, it just gets a hell of a lot more painful and a lot slower.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 5:18pm

4 stars (good)

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Because when you're training you will be required to run again the next day or two and if you tire yourself out so much that you need 3 days of recovery, you have done more harm than good.

Race day, on the other hand, is a one-off. That aim is to give it all and afterwards you can take as much recovery as you need.

Cheers TFBubendorfer, that has never proven to be an issue for me even after a tough session I have been able to continue on the plan. I am a little concerned about the fat/glycogen burning issue tho.

My pacing is a mental thing I think, like if I see another person running I want to up may pace to over take them, or I want to get to the next section of my run quickly. I also find if I stop to take a gel on a long run then I take off faster.

sideswipe · 28-09-2010 6:08pm

4 stars (good)

menoscemo wrote: »

If you train at a slower intensity, it allows you to spend more time on your feet. If you run 20 miles at 10 minute/mile pace that's 3hrs 20 on your feet and moving, that is the whole point of LSR's, getting used to being a long time on your feet. If I run 20 miles slow, my legs are just as tired (if not more so) than if I run 20 miles fast, so the benefit in terms of getting your legs used to the longer distance is the same.

Speed development is what you should be doing during your shorter midweek runs.

Running at a lower intensity also helps your body develop it's fat burning capabilities. Come the big day your body will only have about 18-20 miles worth of Glycogen stored up, so it needs to be burning some fat aswell as glycogen in order to last the 26.2 miles. If you run all your Long Runs at a high intensity (and your short runs even faster) you will be burning pure Glycogen all the time. Glycogen will not be enough on the day (running out of Glycogen is also known as hitting the wall).

By doing all your training at a high intensity you are also severely increasing your chances of burn-out and injury. many marathon runners will talk about leaving their race on the training ground and having nothing left come the big day (i.e. over training).

Any training programe you will find advises running LSR's at anythin between 10-20% slower than PMP (though many LSR's would include several miles @ PMP). for the reasons listed above.

That seems to make a lot of sense. My problem is the quality of midweek miles, I find it hard to up the tempo as I'm basically lazy and just get into a comfort zone and find it hard to push on.
Menoscemo you mentioned 'Junk miles' in another post I saw a while back, what exactly do you mean? Is it generally accepted that running in your comfort zone is pretty much a waste of time as it doesn't really help. i.e. running 5 miles at a quick pace is better that 7 at a slower pace or something like that?

RayCun · 28-09-2010 6:29pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

Cheers TFBubendorfer, that has never proven to be an issue for me even after a tough session I have been able to continue on the plan.

I'd be wondering then if you were aiming for too easy a target then. I'm not saying you should change your target now, it's too close to the race, but if you can run at pace x in all your long runs, putting in 18-20 miles at that speed in the middle of all your other training sessions, then your best marathon pace should be substantially lower than x.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 6:45pm

4 stars (good)

RayCun wrote: »

I'd be wondering then if you were aiming for too easy a target then. I'm not saying you should change your target now, it's too close to the race, but if you can run at pace x in all your long runs, putting in 18-20 miles at that speed in the middle of all your other training sessions, then your best marathon pace should be substantially lower than x.

Maybe your right Raycun, I guess its difficult to say how fast I can do some when I've never done it before. 4 hours seemed reasonable for a first marathon so I went with as a goal.
My only worry is that Im not doing my long runs slow enough, which I hope wont result is me hitting the wall, but when I go above 9 min miles I just feel really cumbersome.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 7:05pm

4 stars (good)

This article seems to indicate that running more miles at marathon pace can lead to a faster time:
http://running.about.com/od/marathonprograms/tp/runfastermarathon.htm

Is anyone else out there running their long runs close to what they will attempt to run the marathon at?

Woddle · 28-09-2010 7:23pm

sideswipe wrote: »

That seems to make a lot of sense. My problem is the quality of midweek miles, I find it hard to up the tempo as I'm basically lazy and just get into a comfort zone and find it hard to push on.
Menoscemo you mentioned 'Junk miles' in another post I saw a while back, what exactly do you mean? Is it generally accepted that running in your comfort zone is pretty much a waste of time as it doesn't really help. i.e. running 5 miles at a quick pace is better that 7 at a slower pace or something like that?

Jack Daniels says that you should always have a purpose for every run, if you don't I'd call that junk miles but I know others reckon it's if your in between zones and not hitting any in particular.

inea · 28-09-2010 7:33pm

Bez Bing wrote: »

This article seems to indicate that running more miles at marathon pace can lead to a faster time:
http://running.about.com/od/marathonprograms/tp/runfastermarathon.htm

Is anyone else out there running their long runs close to what they will attempt to run the marathon at?

I have found pacing the runs quite difficult - last weekend I did 13 miles at about 5.35min/km pace - 20milers so far were done at about 5.45 - 6 min per km pace so slower than I would hope to do the marathon - I am aiming for 4 hours in DCM (First time - so hopefully!!). Athlone this weekend should give me a fair idea if I will get close to my goal!

Krusty_Clown · 28-09-2010 8:00pm

3 stars (average)

Bez Bing wrote: »

This article seems to indicate that running more miles at marathon pace can lead to a faster time:
http://running.about.com/od/marathonprograms/tp/runfastermarathon.htm

Is anyone else out there running their long runs close to what they will attempt to run the marathon at?

From your article:

Running at MP towards the end of your run is good training because you'll be picking up the pace when your legs are already fatigued.

I'd agree with that, but not what you are suggesting, i.e. running your entire long run at marathon pace.

RayCun · 28-09-2010 8:00pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

This article seems to indicate that running more miles at marathon pace can lead to a faster time:
http://running.about.com/od/marathonprograms/tp/runfastermarathon.htm

Yes, but note that this is not advice for your first marathon, and only a portion of the long run is at marathon pace. A lot of advanced programmes will have some portion of the long run at PMP.

Bez Bing · 28-09-2010 8:28pm

4 stars (good)

RayCun and KC I get what your saying I guess Im just looking for ways to justify what I have been doing in my training. Its obviously too late to go back and change things and up to now I have not had any adverse effects from my long runs as in I have been able to keep with my program and have had no injuries (touch wood) so far.

Pacing first time out is such a biatch!

menoscemo · 28-09-2010 8:48pm

4 stars (good)

sideswipe wrote: »

Menoscemo you mentioned 'Junk miles' in another post I saw a while back, what exactly do you mean? Is it generally accepted that running in your comfort zone is pretty much a waste of time as it doesn't really help. i.e. running 5 miles at a quick pace is better that 7 at a slower pace or something like that?

Not really. For me a good recovery run would be 9 min/mile+. I would have a recovery run the day after a tough speed session or a long run. PMP is 8 min/mile. General Aerobic for me would be 8-9 min/mile.
For an LT session I would generally be running 4+ continous miles at 7-:7:15/mile pace. For a VO2 max session I would generally be running shorter intervals (anything up to a mile) at 5k-10k Pace (6:30ish per mile).

For me junk miles would be a short run (4-8 miles) at 7:30-8:00 min/mile. It serves no purpose: it is too fast for recovery and too slow for a speed session. It does nothing other than leave me unduly tired for my key sessions in the rest of the week (vo2max, LT runs, LSR's etc) while giving no greater Aerobic benefit than a much slower (GA pace) run would have done.

RayCun · 28-09-2010 9:34pm

4 stars (good)

Bez Bing wrote: »

RayCun and KC I get what your saying I guess Im just looking for ways to justify what I have been doing in my training. Its obviously too late to go back and change things and up to now I have not had any adverse effects from my long runs as in I have been able to keep with my program and have had no injuries (touch wood) so far.

Some of the experienced runners might correct me on this, but I don't think you're going to have too many adverse effects from this. If you've been able to do all your long runs at that pace, but also hit the rest of your training targets, then you should be fine on the day. I just think it indicates that you could have been more ambitious in your targets, and could have trained for a faster marathon.

grimbergen · 28-09-2010 9:54pm

4 stars (good)

neilc wrote: »

Anyone know does it update in real time, don't fancy taking my phone with me so it would be a handy way for my wife to estimate what time to be near the finish line.
Neil

I was wondering the same. From what I remember from last year it wasn't available but it would be great if it was. Anybody know?

Dublin Marathon 2010

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